I want to have sex with a girl this week

[Olaf]

@something_else if your content with that lifestyle that is upto you. For me I want to grow in every area and that includes in PUA, if your not a fan of that, then I don't know what you are doing in my comments, because all of this was about PUA, not about creating friendships and being generally social, that is a whole other topic.

[Valach]

15 minutes ago, something_else said:

Pickup didn’t work very well for me as a framework for fixing that. If anything it made me feel more isolated, because I was the weird dude chatting to girls in the park or going to clubs alone. It actually made me feel creepier, low-value, and even less socially calibrated. In my head I was thinking “why do I need to chat to girls in the park to get laid, is this really something a quality man would do? If my future girlfriend knew I was doing this, would she really respect me?”

I mean sure but you can spin that question for any source really. Why would a high value man be going to a night club? Why would he be on tinder? And what really is a high value man? High value from the POV of woman? From the POV of general society? Or from the POV of your own values which are of course gonna be different for different people and it also depends on the stage of development you are in.

I met one of my girlfriends when I was doing "pickup" in the park btw. I even told her she was like 5th girl I approached that day, she didn't give a shit.

That is not me defending pickup or shit-tests either. I have a lot of problem with both of these things. It is nuanced.

Edited 3 hours ago by Valach

[Olaf]

@Valach he doesn't seem to be serious about PUA at all so I just don't care to help him with this.

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Olaf said:

@Valach he doesn't seem to be serious about PUA at all so I just don't care to help him with this.

I am not serious about PUA either, I have my own issues with the stuff as well, though I recognize it has its place in guys development.

[something_else]

2 minutes ago, Valach said:

I mean sure but you can spin that question for any source really. Why would a high value man be going to a night club? Why would he be on tinder? And what really is a high value man? High value from the POV of woman? From the POV of general society? Or from the POV of your own values which are of course gonna be different for different people and it also depends on the stage of development you are in.

I met one of my girlfriends when I was doing "pickup" in the park btw. I even told her she was like 5th girl I approached that day, she didn't give a shit.

I mean stereotypically high value guys go to nightclubs and tinder to meet women. They almost certainly don’t go to parks or high streets, simply because they don’t need to.

The key distinction is the effort to reward ratio. If you have a solid social life and you can meet women through that while also having fun going out with friends… why would you waste time going to a park alone to chat to women?

If you have tons of cool travel pics that mean you can meet girls on tinder… why would you get up on a Saturday morning to go to your local high street to chat to random women?

It’s just not something a high value guy has any reason to do because he’s got more important stuff going on, and likely has easier ways to meet women.

Girls are acutely aware of this, which is why if you tell most women that you were spam approaching on the high street they’d rightfully be suspicious of you and think you were a bit weird. There are exceptions to that of course, but as a general rule that’s what will happen.

[Olaf]

@something_else the creepy thing is having low experience in socialising, approach a few 10.000 people is not creepy, most men have huge approach anxiety, need to drink 10 beers before they have the guts to approach one girl, that is creepy. Also I approach men aswell during the night and they approach me, cause I am on fucking fire, they give me dabs and hugs, I don't need any leeching friends around me who are just there with their beer trying to pretend to have fun. 

[Valach]

17 minutes ago, something_else said:

I mean stereotypically high value guys go to nightclubs and tinder to meet women. They almost certainly don’t go to parks or high streets, simply because they don’t need to.

High value guys by what standards though? Those are societal values that we do not have to align with. I personally do not go to night clubs, I do not drink, I do not really enjoy spending time with people who drink. I also go to bed quite early on. Does that mean I am low value? Or perhaps what we value, as society, is not really sign of maturity or emotional health.

Quote

The key distinction is the effort to reward ratio. If you have a solid social life and you can meet women through that while also having fun going out with friends… why would you waste time going to a park alone to chat to women?

I agree for someone who is not really into the self-development/spiritual/healing route and is just a "normie" who is interested in the social skills/dating. But for me personally, the more I dive into healing, integration, self-work, the less I crave any social stuff. It is becoming harder and harder for me to make friends simply due to not being aligned with them.

Quote

If you have tons of cool travel pics that mean you can meet girls on tinder… why would you get up on a Saturday morning to go to your local high street to chat to random women?

Because I do not value using dating apps. I do not think they are good for individual or for society in general. I also do not really take pictures when travelling and do not feel like taking them just to show them on tinder. I also believe the chance of me finding someone who is aligned with me on there is very low.

Quote

It’s just not something a high value guy has any reason to do because he’s got more important stuff going on, and likely has easier ways to meet women.

But you see. The really high value person in my POV (which of course is heavily biased by my own values) does not waste time with socializing, dating or partying all that much.

Quote

Girls are acutely aware of this, which is why if you tell most women that you were spam approaching on the high street they’d rightfully be suspicious of you and think you were a bit weird. There are exceptions to that of course, but as a general rule that’s what will happen.

Of course. I mean in my experience girls just feel your energy and judge you based on that. If they feel like you have great energy they will accept whatever weird shit you are doing. Of course as mine energy got better and better, the less spam approaching I did.
 

 

@something_else

To make things clear. I am not defending PUA or spam approaching and whatnot either - I do not do it either. But I simply try to point out the nuance in all of this "high-value" behaviour. I feel like even the desire to look high value in any way is just manifestation of lack of self esteem and self love.

My experience is that the guys around me who did a lot of work on themselves are of course not spam approaching either nor doing PUA. But they are not really these social guys with huge social circles or succesfull on tinder either. They prefer to spend more time alone and they are focused on their purposes (which mostly is just helping/serving others). So they do not desire having a lot of friends nor having dating success, eventhough they could.

What really changed for me was the realization of how deeply unhealthy our society is. I view the average person as someone who is deeply traumatized and emotionally unwell and addicted to so many distractions. So if someone is "high value" in the eyes of the unhealthy society, it is probably not someone I am gonna be looking up to or trying to imitate. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Valach

[something_else]

21 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@something_else if your content with that lifestyle that is upto you. For me I want to grow in every area and that includes in PUA, if your not a fan of that, then I don't know what you are doing in my comments, because all of this was about PUA, not about creating friendships and being generally social, that is a whole other topic.

It really isn’t a whole other topic. It’s one of the keys to actually getting a quality girlfriend or hooking up with hot girls, which is your goal. Hot girls want you to be a well rounded man, but pickup is boyish behaviour. 

Again, ask yourself, does a 10/10 girl dream of marrying a dude who calls himself a pickup artist and gets up at 9am on a Saturday to go to his local high street and talk to hundreds of women? Probably not.

I think pickup has value as a framework when you take the parts of it that are useful and drop the rest, but when you go all in to the point where you build an identity around it, it starts to hurt a lot more than it helps.

[Olaf]

@something_else you don't seem serious so I don't waste time on you

[something_else]

6 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@something_else you don't seem serious so I don't waste time on you

I don’t think you’re upset because I’m not serious, I think you’re upset because you’re building an identity around pickup and now interpreting my criticism of pickup as an attack on your identity.

My goal here is mainly just to warn you that pickup is not a good thing to build your identity around.

Use some of the tools from it, then drop them when they no longer serve you. Don’t build your entire identity around it.

[Olaf]

@something_else whatever makes you sleep at night

[Valach]

1 minute ago, something_else said:

I don’t think you’re upset because I’m not serious, I think you’re upset because you’re building an identity around pickup and now interpreting my criticism of pickup as an attack on your identity.

My goal here is mainly just to warn you that pickup is not a good thing to build your identity around.

Use some of the tools from it, then drop them when they no longer serve you. Don’t build your entire identity around it.

@Olaf I can agree with this. Pickup whilst useful at certain stage is deeply problematic.

[Olaf]

@Valach I think most guys just give up on PUA before seeing any results and many if not 90% never even tried or approached. Which probably means a big portion of the guys on this forum too. 

[Valach]

3 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Valach I think most guys just give up on PUA before seeing any results and many if not 90% never even tried or approached. Which probably means a big portion of the guys on this forum too. 

That does not mean PUA is not unhealthy. The more success you have via it the more it is gonna influence you and you will build identity around it like @something_else said.

[Olaf]

@Valach that is the whole point, to become a higher value men, you guys are thinking it is healthy to be a beta male, what the hell

[Valach]

3 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Valach that is the whole point, to become a higher value men, you guys are thinking it is healthy to be a beta male, what the hell

How do you define healthy, integrated human being? By their ability to get laid?

[Olaf]

@Valach I rather be Owen then to be Leo, Leo is way too introverted and theoretical, I am an introvert so I know how you can get stuck in your head and that is not growth, that is an introvert being an introvert. 

[LordFall]

11 minutes ago, Valach said:

That does not mean PUA is not unhealthy. The more success you have via it the more it is gonna influence you and you will build identity around it like @something_else said.

There are unhealthy parts to it but in general it helps you become a competent communicator who can easily relate to others and builds networking skills if you lean into social circle dynamics.

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Olaf said:

@Valach I rather be Owen then to be Leo, Leo is way too introverted and theoretical, I am an introvert so I know how you can get stuck in your head and that is not growth, that is an introvert being an introvert. 

When you look at Owen, do you consider him to be someone who is mature, emotionally healthy?

[Valach]

1 minute ago, LordFall said:

There are unhealthy parts to it but in general it helps you become a competent communicator who's able to easily relate with others as well as teaching you networking skills if you go towards the social circle side of it. 

Sure, if it did not have its benefits, guys would not be doing that, I am not disputing that. But you pay the price.