Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They will continue to be desperate after they get their state. Because their state will be delusional, corrupt, weak, and vindictive.

You are assuming they will stop being suicidal. You are assuming that sitting in your armchair. But Israeli leadership will be demonized for the rest of history if they test that assumption and it proves false. Israeli leadership gave back Gaze to Hamas, and the result was Oct 7th.

 

That’s ridiculous.

The idea israel gave Gaza to Hamas is hasbara nonsense. When Hamas won the election exit polls showed even the majority of Hamas voters supported two states and were voting against the PLO because of corruption and failing to get a state despite store recognizing Israel and ending armed resistance. When Hamas won it offered a long term ceasefire in exchange for ending the occupation.

Instead israel launched a violent coup and when that failed put Gaza under a blockade. It was a massive ghetto and prison. Leaked emails show they admitted the goal was to keep the economy on the brink of collapse to torture the civilian population.

Gaza didn’t attack for no reason on Oct 7. Israel was using the US to strong arm middle eastern states into normalizing with them without ending the occupation, hoping to lock the Palestinians into subjugation forever.

That is the equivalent of if the US government surrounds your town with soldiers, won’t let barely anyone leave, purposefully limits goods so the economy is always borderline collapsing, periodically arrests hundreds and kills thousands including shooting peaceful protesters, then tried to make a deal behind your back to keep you there forever, and you bust out and attack, and we use that to conclude you are suicidal and they have no choice.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Once bitten, twice shy. That is the whole Zionist motto. Their whole point is that they will not allow themselves to be screwed over again, like in WW2, by being too liberal.

You are falling for propaganda. The former Israeli prime minister admitted if Palestinians asked for equality it would destroy Israel.

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I have a realistic view of their development.

It just so happens Palestinians are even less developed than that. There is much lower development than Blue/Orange.

No, you don’t. The Palestinian resistance only became primarily Islamist after decades of the secular resistance failing. Palestinians are one of the most well educated populations in the world with one of the highest literacy rate. Israel just blocks economic development.

Palestinians lived peacefully with a Jewish and Christian minority for centuries before Zionism, they integrated refugee populations like the Armenians. The problem with Zionism was it was a hostile colonist movement that was trying to steal their homeland. Not because they had low development and couldn’t handle minorities existing. 

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, however:

1) The entire Middle East lacks development, of their own making, independent of the West. You cannot blame most of their underdevleopment on the West. Their underdevelopment is home-grown and hitched to Islam's regressiveness and ideology.

2) Even so, you cannot expect today's Israeli politicians to sit back and allow vindictive Arabs to just slaughter them. That's not how politics works. You are expecting a level of selflessness from Israelis which they are incapable of. It is like you are expecting a grizzly bear to just sit back while you slap him across the face. For sure the grizzly bear will over-react. And you will scream, "But it's not fair! All I did was slap him." But the grizzly bear does not care about your ideas of fairness.

The entire Arab league already offered full normalization with Israel if they end the occupation. Palestinians also agreed to this in the PA. Israel said no.

The majority of the Arab world and even Iran supported turning the entire Middle East into a nuclear weapon free zone. Israel said no.

The Palestinian leadership in the West Bank is literally having their homeland torn apart by settlers and won’t even defend themselves and instead are using diplomacy. Israel said no.

Hamas proposed multiple diplomatic off ramps repeatedly before Oct 7 and repeatedly asked the blockade lifted. Israel said no.

The idea the Arab world is crazy and just suicidal and israel is just defending themselves is complete nonsense, especially now. They are bending over backwards to try and resolve the issue peacefully but Israel’s aggression makes this impossible.

This was also never the case btw. Israel’s claim the Arab world tried to genocide them out of nowhere is complete nonsense. 

No military documents show that was the goal of the Arab armies in 1948 and they never attempted any mass killing of civilians (Israel did this in the same period btw) and they only attacked after israel already expelled hundreds of thousands of civilians

In 67 they only attacked after israel bombed them

In 73 Egypt offered multiple diplomatic proposals to return the Sinai but Israel rejected them, only then did they invade. When israel actually gave the Sinai back they haven’t attacked since despite Israel’s aggression against Palestinians and other countries continuing. If Arabs are just crazy why did israel agree to this when they’d know they’d break it? Because they knew they wouldn’t, they know they’re the aggressors and if they actually want peace it happens when they agree.

Edited 2 hours ago by Raze

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

In a war between Palestine and Israel, Israel will win. There is no question about that.

Don't provoke the bear.

How should this person have not provoked the bear in your opinion?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flh25kzYFWo

 

[Leo Gura]

@Raze Hamas provoked the bear. You see the result in Gaza's ruins.

You need to understand when you a dealing with a force way bigger than you. It is like you are fighting a tsunami.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Raze Hamas provoked the bear. You see the result in Gaza's ruins.

You need to understand when you a dealing with a force way bigger than you. It is like you are fighting a tsunami.

So what should they have done here to not “provoke the bear”, this was prior to Oct 7:

 

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Raze Hamas provoked the bear. You see the result in Gaza's ruins.

You need to understand when you a dealing with a force way bigger than you. It is like you are fighting a tsunami.

What makes you think they don’t understand that?

You could say the same as Nat Turner or Spartacus. They were enslaved and knew they had no chance.

The reason is because they were defending themselves from the ongoing violence, they were the ones provoked by their oppressors. Even if they had no chance, in the same way if someone bigger than you was constantly beating you up you’d take a Hail Mary chance rather than accept the abuse forever because you fear it could get worse. 

[Karmadhi]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In a war between Palestine and Israel, Israel will win. There is no question about that.

Don't provoke the bear.

The funny part is that when people use the same logic about Ukraine and the West provoking Russia, they are called pro Russian and say it is not fair, Russia has no right to over react, lets sanction Russia etc

Israel will be shameless but the issue is them not being punished for it

Like Russia shameless over-reaction was punished

Why is Russia sanctioned for war crimes and Israel is not?

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

The funny part is that when people use the same logic about Ukraine and the West provoking Russia, they are called pro Russian 

It’s actually worse because Russia only started attacking and occupying. Israel was constantly occupying and attacking Palestine. It would be more like saying Ukrainians provoke Russia by fighting the ones actively attacking them on their land today. 

[coca]

@Leo Gura Diplomatically is the key word, Palestine and Israel don’t exist in a vacuum. 

Should HAMAS have attacked Israel, obviously not but as you said “the bear does not care about your moral system”, but Palestines government is seperate from HAMAS, and they could defend themselves through diplomatic relations with other countries and organizations such as the UN. (Which the US has repeatedly tried to push Palestine out of)

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

It’s actually worse because Russia only started attacking and occupying. Israel was constantly occupying and attacking Palestine. It would be more like saying Ukrainians provoke Russia by fighting the ones actively attacking them on their land today. 

The issue to me with @Leo Gura s argument is that he acts as if that region is an isolated island and there is no rest of the world

I do agree that Israel may feel they need to overeact given their situation

Fine

But the rest of the world should act up if they go too far, sanction them and cut ties

They did that with Russia when it invaded Ukraine

Why Israel gets special treatment?

That is the core issue here

If you want to be 100% pragmatic and ignore all laws, it is much more hurtful to sanction Russia than Israel, given how important Russian resources are

Sanctioning Russia will hurt economies much more than Israel who is much less useful

They are useful, but way less than Russia

However, they are not sanctioned while Russia is

Even from a non-moralistic purely pragmatic pov it makes no sense

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The funny part is that when people use the same logic about Ukraine and the West provoking Russia,

Ukraine did not bum-rush their way into Russia, killing everyone on sight.

[coca]

@Leo Gura HAMAS is a terrorist organization seperate from Palestine, how can the entire country be held responsible for the acts of a terrorist organization?

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine did not bum-rush their way into Russia, killing everyone on sight.

If they had been occupied by decades from Russia brutally, they could have perhaps

No reason for Ukraine to declare war to Russia randomly and do such an act

They are an independent state 

I will say it a third time, why Israeli war crimes are not sanctioned while Russian war crimes are?

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[coca]

@Karmadhi Would it be correct to compare this to the 9/11 situation?

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine did not bum-rush their way into Russia, killing everyone on sight.

If Russia defeats Ukraine, occupies the whole country, and spends the next four decades killing them, stealing from them, and brutalizing them, and the entire world not only doesn’t sanction Russia but actually celebrates and supports them, that would happen.

And a third of the Israelis killed on Oct 7 were soldiers or police. They act like it was just a massacre of defenseless civilians for propaganda purposes, most of the fighting was Hamas attacking military bases used to imprison Gaza. 

Chechnya is another example, after decades of violence from Russia their resistance became more extreme and began using suicide bombings and kidnappings. 

Again the idea Palestinian resistance is abnormally brutal or irrational is ahistorical propaganda, in comparable situations they’ve actually been far less extreme than similar oppressed populations.

South African apartheid wasn’t nearly as long or as brutal and they absolutely refused to end armed resistance until their goals were met. Meanwhile the PA has given up armed resistance in favor of diplomacy despite the situation being far worse and their diplomatic attempts being far less effective. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Raze

[Karmadhi]

Just now, coca said:

@Karmadhi Would it be correct to compare this to the 9/11 situation?

I do not think so, a better analogy would be the slave revolts where slaves killed their owners indiscrimiantely 

Or the Warsaw Uprising during WW2 in 1944

 

[coca]

@Karmadhi So your basically saying that AL QAEDA was being frivolous in their efforts to attack USA for their military presence, where as Palestine has suffered more of a prolonged/brutal abuse at the hands of the Israelis?

Edited 1 hour ago by coca

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, coca said:

@Leo Gura HAMAS is a terrorist organization seperate from Palestine, how can the entire country be held responsible for the acts of a terrorist organization?

They are the military arm of Palestine.

Of course they are responsible.

Again, the bear does not care about your morals.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They are the military arm of Palestine.

Is there Hamas in the West Bank?

Where?

I have not seen it

Or is only Gaza Palestine according to you?

Also if Israel does not care about morals, why are they not sanctioned?

You keep avoiding this question

According to you just because Israel lost 1000 people they can do genocide and the world should just let it happen and be like "well they were attacked so they gotta do what they gotta do"

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[coca]

@Leo Gura Are they really the military arm? Or more like the only defense force in Palestine so they are perceived as the official military? They are not officially affiliated with the government, and mostly stick to the Gaza Strip region. 

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, coca said:

@Leo Gura Are they really the military arm? Or more like the only defense force in Palestine so they are perceived as the official military? They are not officially affiliated with the government, and mostly stick to the Gaza Strip region. 

Israeli and American mainstream propaganda make Hamas seem like the face of Palestine

I feel Leo has somewhat fallen for that too