you can't change your inner game without action

[Valach]

Just now, Ulax said:

I'm confused. Where did I say trauma is just a lack of orange?

And it will cure some wounds

23 minutes ago, Ulax said:

It is a spiral stage. Orange is about personal effectiveness. A large part of trauma is lack of effectiveness.

Here basically.

What kind of wounds do you expect it to cure?

[Ulax]

2 minutes ago, Valach said:

Here basically.

That is different from what you're saying I said.

3 minutes ago, Valach said:

What kind of wounds do you expect it to cure?

For example, it can help with virginity wounds

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

That is different from what you're saying I said.

So what did you mean by that?

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

For example, it can help with virginity wounds

Which is a perfect example of toxic shame. Instead of feeling a lot of shame around being a virgin, it will latch onto some other aspect of your psyche and justify your inadequacy by that.

[LordFall]

1 hour ago, Valach said:

That is precisely the myth shame keeps on telling you. You were born with true confidence, you lost it along the way. And it was not lack of woman in your life that caused it. I mean it could have been if the woman lacking in your life was your mother

I think we're conflating confidence and self-esteem here. 

Confidence is defined as such : Confidence is a state of trust, assurance, and belief in one's own abilities. It involves feeling secure in your skills and having faith in people or future plans.

You can be delusional in your confidence because you are perfect just the way you are but generally I don't see that working well for people. The people that have the best results I've seen both have grounded self-esteem in their faith in their own abilities to accomplish big thing and also the humility to put themselves in the fire time and time again and learn from their mistakes. 

[Valach]

Just now, LordFall said:

I think we're conflating confidence and self-esteem here. 

Confidence is defined as such : Confidence is a state of trust, assurance, and belief in one's own abilities. It involves feeling secure in your skills and having faith in people or future plans.

You can be delusional in your confidence because you are perfect just the way you are but generally I don't see that working well for people. The people that have the best results I've seen both have grounded self-esteem in their faith in their own abilities to accomplish big thing and also the humility to put themselves in the fire time and time again and learn from their mistakes. 

I completely agree that confidence and self-esteem are different.

For example, I can be very confident in my physical strength if I'm competing against someone much weaker, yet still have generally low self-esteem. Confidence is usually domain-specific—it's trust in your ability to do a particular thing. Self-esteem is much broader; it's the relationship you have with yourself regardless of performance.

Where I think dating differs from many other domains is that, beyond basic social skills, it's difficult to separate the interaction from your sense of self. You can certainly learn techniques, conversation skills or flirting. But if those become a way to compensate for feeling fundamentally "not enough," the interaction easily turns into performance rather than authentic self-expression.

That's why I think pickup can make someone more socially competent without necessarily increasing their self-esteem. It builds confidence in a skill, but whether it changes the underlying relationship you have with yourself is a different question.

[Ulax]

6 minutes ago, Valach said:

So what did you mean by that?

I meant its part of trauma's cause.

6 minutes ago, Valach said:

Which is a perfect example of toxic shame. Instead of feeling a lot of shame around being a virgin, it will latch onto some other aspect of your psyche and justify your inadequacy by that.

No. Living in a culture that shames male virginity means not being a virgin makes the world less hostile. Hence, less trauma.

[Valach]

8 minutes ago, Ulax said:

I meant its part of trauma's cause.

Expand then on how going through orange (in this case through pickup) is needed to cure trauma. From my experience the only needed part of this is that when people go through this (they get the success in orange realm) and realize that it does not cure shit, then the healing starts.

Quote

No. Living in a culture that shames male virginity means not being a virgin makes the world less hostile. Hence, less trauma.

Shame is not created by something like this. It is a much earlier experience. It is the feeling of "There is something wrong with me/I am not enough". It gets created very early on in childhood ( I would say first 3 years). A person who would be virgin later on but had no internal shame (which is extremely rare) would not be affected by this shaming from society.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Valach

[Ulax]

7 minutes ago, Valach said:

Expand then on how going through orange (in this case through pickup) is needed to cure orange. From my experience the only needed part of this is that when people go through this (they get the success in orange realm) and realize that it does not cure shit, then the healing starts.

I'm guessing you miswrote that first sentence.

8 minutes ago, Valach said:

Shame is not created by something like this. It is a much sooner experience. It is the feeling of "There is something wrong with me/I am not enough". It gets created very early on in childhood ( I would say first 3 years). A person who would be virgin later on but had no internal shame (which is extremely rare) would not be affected by this shaming from society.

If that were true, prisoners of war clients wouldn't be standard examples used in CPTSD treatment manuals.

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

I'm guessing you miswrote that first sentence.

Yup, edited it afterwards, sorry.

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

If that were true, prisoners of war clients wouldn't be standard examples used in CPTSD treatment manuals.

CPTSD and shame are different things albeit connected. Also you example is very extereme. Yes people who go through torture might suffer consequnces, but that is rare in modern society luckily.

Interestingly enough Gabor Mate talked about this exact case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOvbNLqueVk

 

[Olaf]

If inner game was a real thing, then Owen would be a billionaire, it is precisely that it is hard because you do have to take action, face rejection etc. and not just some inner work. Again if you are highly traumatised go seek therapy or something, not inner game.

It is like manifestation jerk off shit, I am allergic to it at this point. Think about how fucked up manifestation is, people literally do nothing else than taking no action AT ALL and visualising, dreaming, affirming money, relatinoships, whatever.

Then they say it is true, because Jim Carrey visualised 10 million. WELL he WORKED his ass off for YEARS, we only gonna consider him writing down 10 million years ago as the reason he got that check? If you work really really hard and somewhere belief in manifestation or inner work, you got my permission, but most of the people that are into it, don't do any work.

Edited 2 hours ago by Olaf

[Valach]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

If inner game was a real thing, then Owen would be a billionaire, it is precisely that it is hard because you do have to take action, face rejection etc. and not just some inner work. Again if you are highly traumatised go seek therapy or something, not inner game.

It is like manifestation jerk off shit, I am allergic to it at this point. Think about how fucked up manifestation is, people literally do nothing else than taking no action AT ALL and visualising, dreaming, affirming money, relatinoships, whatever.

Then they say it is true, because Jim Carrey visualised 10 million. WELL he WORKED his ass off for YEARS, we only gonna consider him writing down 10 million years ago as the reason he got that check? If you work really really hard and somewhere belief in manifestation or inner work, you got my permission, but most of the people that are into it, don't do any work.

You clearly are not open to even understanding what inner work or trauma release is. What is the point of opening a post then if you are not willing to entertain other ideas.

Just like @Raze said inner work is not about some visualization of you slaying it in the club. It is not some instants release that you do once and you are suddenly healed. Just like any worthwhile activity, it takes a long time to see a little improvment.

Also leaning your definition of self esteem or "innergame" by how successfull you are with getting the validation of people who are traumatized as well is not the best strategy either. Most people who make it big in pickup never really heal their traumas (Owen is clear example of that). That is precisely why they struggle to keep a healthy relationship going - thus they keep getting back into game and "getting better" at it.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Valach

[Olaf]

@Valach I know inner work, I know Julien, I know trauma release, I am not a rookie. Yet trauma release isn't the solution for confidence, you can do trauma release all day and it wouldn't be any better then jerking off. For serious trauma you need something more serious, either medical treatment, EMDR, etc. You really think some letting go work of Julien is now gonna make you super confident? The funny thing is that even in Julien's course of letting go he demonstrates people to take action in public to let go. He is asking people to take action, not to do just inner work. Actually the only manifestation coaches I kind of respect are the ones that say "but you have to take action tho not only manifest" HAHAHA no shit. 

[Valach]

11 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Valach I know inner work, I know Julien, I know trauma release, I am not a rookie. Yet trauma release isn't the solution for confidence, you can do trauma release all day and it wouldn't be any better then jerking off. For serious trauma you need something more serious, either medical treatment, EMDR, etc. You really think some letting go work of Julien is now gonna make you super confident? The funny thing is that even in Julien's course of letting go he demonstrates people to take action in public to let go. He is asking people to take action, not to do just inner work. Actually the only manifestation coaches I kind of respect are the ones that say "but you have to take action tho not only manifest" HAHAHA no shit. 

I updated my comment before you responded with this one. I am not that familiar with Juliens letting go. Noone is talking about manifesting. Do not pretend like I said you should be sitting at home and meditate your way into having a dating life.

You have to realize that most of the guys who are hitting up clubs trying to get better with woman are doing so from a position of having trauma in the first place. The funny thing is that if you would be able to resolve your trauma then yes, you will probably get better socially. But at the same time you will also lose a big chunk of your motivation for "gaming".

Edited 1 hour ago by Valach

[Olaf]

@Valach I forgot to mention, I lost motivation to go to night clubs, but actually after coming back into game after a few years I am now very motivated to go out during the day and approach woman, because these girls I can actually see as my girlfriend and actually I am more motivated than I was before. The girls in the club are intoxicated most of the time, which is kinda unattractive, as well as their lifestyle probably isn't super healthy. I don't drink and if a girl smokes or drinks allot, we are probably aren't a match as it is a different lifestyle.

Going to a club is fun, but it is also empty as I feel none of this can lead anywhere and you wake up all tired the next morning being super unproductive. Sure maybe my motivation is not so much to just have sex with every girl and get a huge body count, rather to find a good partner, which changes the game completely how you play it and what you do.

If you are a sex addict that is literally a mental health illness; also it is unattractive I don't think woman want a lustful men who is ready to have sex with everything that walks. Also the reason I try to stay away from direct approaches if possible as with direct approaches I feel like I am giving her too much the idea that I want to sleep with her when I literally don't know if I want to sleep with her at all, I have my standards aswell and I don't just take any woman as my partner, otherwise I wouldn't even needed to do all of this to find her. I would simply find some girl in the club and make her my girlfriend and join her in taking vodka shots every night and drinking beer till the morning comes.

[Valach]

11 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Valach I forgot to mention, I lost motivation to go to night clubs, but actually after coming back into game after a few years I am now very motivated to go out during the day and approach woman, because these girls I can actually see as my girlfriend and actually I am more motivated than I was before. The girls in the club are intoxicated most of the time, which is kinda unattractive, as well as their lifestyle probably isn't super healthy. I don't drink and if a girl smokes or drinks allot, we are probably aren't a match as it is a different lifestyle.

Going to a club is fun, but it is also empty as I feel none of this can lead anywhere and you wake up all tired the next morning being super unproductive. Sure maybe my motivation is not so much to just have sex with every girl and get a huge body count, rather to find a good partner, which changes the game completely how you play it and what you do.

If you are a sex addict that is literally a mental health illness; also it is unattractive I don't think woman want a lustful men who is ready to have sex with everything that walks. Also the reason I try to stay away from direct approaches if possible as with direct approaches I feel like I am giving her too much the idea that I want to sleep with her when I literally don't know if I want to sleep with her at all, I have my standards aswell and I don't just take any woman as my partner, otherwise I wouldn't even needed to do all of this to find her. I would simply find some girl in the club and make her my girlfriend and join her in taking vodka shots every night and drinking beer till the morning comes.

I wish you that you find your person out there;)

[Olaf]

@Valach Appreciated!