you can't change your inner game without action

[Valach]

Just now, Ulax said:

I'm confused. Where did I say trauma is just a lack of orange?

And it will cure some wounds

23 minutes ago, Ulax said:

It is a spiral stage. Orange is about personal effectiveness. A large part of trauma is lack of effectiveness.

Here basically.

What kind of wounds do you expect it to cure?

[Ulax]

2 minutes ago, Valach said:

Here basically.

That is different from what you're saying I said.

3 minutes ago, Valach said:

What kind of wounds do you expect it to cure?

For example, it can help with virginity wounds

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

That is different from what you're saying I said.

So what did you mean by that?

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

For example, it can help with virginity wounds

Which is a perfect example of toxic shame. Instead of feeling a lot of shame around being a virgin, it will latch onto some other aspect of your psyche and justify your inadequacy by that.

[LordFall]

1 hour ago, Valach said:

That is precisely the myth shame keeps on telling you. You were born with true confidence, you lost it along the way. And it was not lack of woman in your life that caused it. I mean it could have been if the woman lacking in your life was your mother

I think we're conflating confidence and self-esteem here. 

Confidence is defined as such : Confidence is a state of trust, assurance, and belief in one's own abilities. It involves feeling secure in your skills and having faith in people or future plans.

You can be delusional in your confidence because you are perfect just the way you are but generally I don't see that working well for people. The people that have the best results I've seen both have grounded self-esteem in their faith in their own abilities to accomplish big thing and also the humility to put themselves in the fire time and time again and learn from their mistakes. 

[Valach]

Just now, LordFall said:

I think we're conflating confidence and self-esteem here. 

Confidence is defined as such : Confidence is a state of trust, assurance, and belief in one's own abilities. It involves feeling secure in your skills and having faith in people or future plans.

You can be delusional in your confidence because you are perfect just the way you are but generally I don't see that working well for people. The people that have the best results I've seen both have grounded self-esteem in their faith in their own abilities to accomplish big thing and also the humility to put themselves in the fire time and time again and learn from their mistakes. 

I completely agree that confidence and self-esteem are different.

For example, I can be very confident in my physical strength if I'm competing against someone much weaker, yet still have generally low self-esteem. Confidence is usually domain-specific—it's trust in your ability to do a particular thing. Self-esteem is much broader; it's the relationship you have with yourself regardless of performance.

Where I think dating differs from many other domains is that, beyond basic social skills, it's difficult to separate the interaction from your sense of self. You can certainly learn techniques, conversation skills or flirting. But if those become a way to compensate for feeling fundamentally "not enough," the interaction easily turns into performance rather than authentic self-expression.

That's why I think pickup can make someone more socially competent without necessarily increasing their self-esteem. It builds confidence in a skill, but whether it changes the underlying relationship you have with yourself is a different question.

[Ulax]

6 minutes ago, Valach said:

So what did you mean by that?

I meant its part of trauma's cause.

6 minutes ago, Valach said:

Which is a perfect example of toxic shame. Instead of feeling a lot of shame around being a virgin, it will latch onto some other aspect of your psyche and justify your inadequacy by that.

No. Living in a culture that shames male virginity means not being a virgin makes the world less hostile. Hence, less trauma.

[Valach]

8 minutes ago, Ulax said:

I meant its part of trauma's cause.

Expand then on how going through orange (in this case through pickup) is needed to cure trauma. From my experience the only needed part of this is that when people go through this (they get the success in orange realm) and realize that it does not cure shit, then the healing starts.

Quote

No. Living in a culture that shames male virginity means not being a virgin makes the world less hostile. Hence, less trauma.

Shame is not created by something like this. It is a much earlier experience. It is the feeling of "There is something wrong with me/I am not enough". It gets created very early on in childhood ( I would say first 3 years). A person who would be virgin later on but had no internal shame (which is extremely rare) would not be affected by this shaming from society.

 

Edited 40 minutes ago by Valach

[Ulax]

7 minutes ago, Valach said:

Expand then on how going through orange (in this case through pickup) is needed to cure orange. From my experience the only needed part of this is that when people go through this (they get the success in orange realm) and realize that it does not cure shit, then the healing starts.

I'm guessing you miswrote that first sentence.

8 minutes ago, Valach said:

Shame is not created by something like this. It is a much sooner experience. It is the feeling of "There is something wrong with me/I am not enough". It gets created very early on in childhood ( I would say first 3 years). A person who would be virgin later on but had no internal shame (which is extremely rare) would not be affected by this shaming from society.

If that were true, prisoners of war clients wouldn't be standard examples used in CPTSD treatment manuals.

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

I'm guessing you miswrote that first sentence.

Yup, edited it afterwards, sorry.

1 minute ago, Ulax said:

If that were true, prisoners of war clients wouldn't be standard examples used in CPTSD treatment manuals.

CPTSD and shame are different things albeit connected. Also you example is very extereme. Yes people who go through torture might suffer consequnces, but that is rare in modern society luckily.

Interestingly enough Gabor Mate talked about this exact case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOvbNLqueVk