Doing Day Game in Small City is Demoralizing

[Miguel1]

I might miss some context with Valach and LordFall, but I don’t see an issue with girls you don’t find attractive to practice your social skills, as long as you don’t lead them on.

There is no need to hurt anyone while practicing your skills. You can always make friends with them. And if you wanna practice your attraction generating skills with not attractive girls, then just come up with an excuse later that doesnt hurt them:

”I really enjoyed your company but I want to be honest with you, upon thinking further, right now I am seeing a girl with whom things are getting a bit too serious for me to see other girls and feel good about myself”.

You are never going to be perfectly 100% ethical and selfless in this world. Just you existing will cause other forms to disappear.

[Valach]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

I might miss some context with Valach and LordFall, but I don’t see an issue with girls you don’t find attractive to practice your social skills, as long as you don’t lead them on.

I think we missunderstood each other. I assumed (wrongly) that he is suggesting to try to flirt with woman you are not interested in the first place. I met guys who just practiced game by running it on everyone no matter if they were interested or not. Which fundamentally is missunderstanding of social dynamics in the first place and also unethical in my opinion.
 

 

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

There is no need to hurt anyone while practicing your skills. You can always make friends with them. And if you wanna practice your attraction generating skills with not attractive girls, then just come up with an excuse later that doesnt hurt them:

”I really enjoyed your company but I want to be honest with you, upon thinking further, right now I am seeing a girl with whom things are getting a bit too serious for me to see other girls and feel good about myself”.

You are never going to be perfectly 100% ethical and selfless in this world. Just you existing will cause other forms to disappear.

Of course you can't be purely good in this world. But you can do as much as you can to prevent it. Maybe starting with this approach right here. Woman are not objects to practice our social/seduction skills on them. Approach only if you really want to meet her. Of course, no problem just generally socializing with woman you are not attracted to, but be mindful of your intention and the way your actions impact others.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:33 PM by Valach

[Miguel1]

24 minutes ago, Valach said:

Of course you can't be purely good in this world. But you can do as much as you can to prevent it. Maybe starting with this approach right here. Woman are not objects to practice our social/seduction skills on them. Approach only if you really want to meet her. Of course, no problem just generally socializing with woman you are not attracted to, but be mindful of your intention and the way your actions impact others.

This is ideal. But you don’t understand how bad it is for some guys starting out. Have empathy for them, at least they are trying.

For guys that are struggling heavily, it can be impossible to practice on girls they find attractive as first step. Later on, of course they should do that.

I see not much harm created if you practice approaching and initial stage of conversation with a non attractive girl, and even taking their phone number. If you take them on multiple dates, then there’s too much harm, yes.

[Valach]

12 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

This is ideal. But you don’t understand how bad it is for some guys starting out. Have empathy for them, at least they are trying.

For guys that are struggling heavily, it can be impossible to practice on girls they find attractive as first step. Later on, of course they should do that.

I see not much harm created if you practice approaching and initial stage of conversation with a non attractive girl, and even taking their phone number. If you take them on multiple dates, then there’s too much harm, yes.

Then get into situation that you meet sufficient amount of attractive (for you) woman. Like you don't need to go around approaching 20 woman if you do not like 18 of them. Just approach the two you like. It's simple.

Edited yesterday at 02:02 PM by Valach

[Miguel1]

39 minutes ago, Valach said:

Then get into situation that you meet sufficient amount of attractive (for you) woman. Like you don't need to go around approaching 20 woman if you do not like 18 of them. Just approach the two you like. It's simple.

Have you heard of anxiety?

Even someone who hasn’t dealt with anxiety in years, I can still remember how bad it is.

Edited yesterday at 02:32 PM by Miguel1

[Valach]

14 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Have you heard of anxiety?

Even someone who hasn’t dealt with anxiety in years, I can still remember how bad it is.

Of course I have. I still have anxiety when talking to a woman I like. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Like if you "need" to talk to a lot of woman to get in state to feel worthy of the attention you want from attractive woman (which is in itself a flawed inner game), build a momentum by talking to people in friendly way or just find places (like night clubs) where there are a lot of woman you are attracted to.

Edited yesterday at 02:48 PM by Valach

[Miguel1]

1 minute ago, Valach said:

Of course I have. I still have anxiety when talking to a woman I like. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, but some guys have extreme level of that.

[Valach]

1 minute ago, Miguel1 said:

Yes, but some guys have extreme level of that.

Sorry, I responded in the edit in the above comment.

Generally speaking I do not believe that trying to seduce woman you are not attracted to will help you with anxiety. This is inner game issue.

[Miguel1]

1 minute ago, Valach said:

Generally speaking I do not believe that trying to seduce woman you are not attracted to will help you with anxiety. This is inner game issue.

Generally speaking, taking action is a more efficient way to improve inner game. 

[Valach]

7 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Generally speaking, taking action is a more efficient way to improve inner game. 

Taking right, aligned action, yes. I do not think flirting with woman you do not like is part of that.  But taking action is just part of inner game.

I am quite radical but I believe most people who enter in pickup should get through quite a lot of therapy as well.

Edited yesterday at 02:59 PM by Valach

[Miguel1]

4 hours ago, Valach said:

I am quite radical but I believe most people who enter in pickup should get through quite a lot of therapy as well.

Correct.

But again, for an extremely hard case, giving them a practice of asking someone for the time or direction, is crucial part of his journey.

Did he really need help with time or direction? No.

[Valach]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

Correct.

But again, for an extremely hard case, giving them a practice of asking someone for the time or direction, is crucial part of his journey.

Did he really need help with time or direction? No.

Sure. But you know there is some context difference between this. You asking for time, even if not honestly, will not trigger some emotional reaction from the other side unlike with flirting etc. It is basic empathy, really. 

[Miguel1]

1 hour ago, Valach said:

Sure. But you know there is some context difference between this. You asking for time, even if not honestly, will not trigger some emotional reaction from the other side unlike with flirting etc. It is basic empathy, really. 

It is just some harmless flirtin. It happens all the time. You are making too big of a deal out of it.

Getting a girl’s number doesn’t mean anything, especially if the guy is new to game, he most likely won’t be getting any solid numbers anyway.

[Valach]

18 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

It is just some harmless flirtin. It happens all the time. You are making too big of a deal out of it.

Getting a girl’s number doesn’t mean anything, especially if the guy is new to game, he most likely won’t be getting any solid numbers anyway.

If it is in a nightclub setting, then yea, whatever - go ahead and flirt. Daygame approaches are definitely not some harmless flirting, specially when you get her number. I have heard numerous times of woman being disappointed by the guy not reaching out. And that also translates back into dating scene maybe by them becoming more closed off and that sort of thing.

I propose to be more intentional around dating and meeting people.

General good rule of thumb to ask yourself in such situations is: "Will my action increase or decrease the amount of 'goodness' in the world".

You yourself complain a lot about the low consciousness and "gamey" nature of socialization. Yet here you are, defending it.

Edited 16 hours ago by Valach

[Miguel1]

11 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

I might miss some context with Valach and LordFall, but I don’t see an issue with girls you don’t find attractive to practice your social skills, as long as you don’t lead them on.

There is no need to hurt anyone while practicing your skills. You can always make friends with them. And if you wanna practice your attraction generating skills with not attractive girls, then just come up with an excuse later that doesnt hurt them:

”I really enjoyed your company but I want to be honest with you, upon thinking further, right now I am seeing a girl with whom things are getting a bit too serious for me to see other girls and feel good about myself”.

You are never going to be perfectly 100% ethical and selfless in this world. Just you existing will cause other forms to disappear.

@Valach

Brother, I am done with this discussion. If we don’t agree after all this, then there is no point continuing. It’s ok. We are just going in circles.

[Valach]

Just now, Miguel1 said:

@Valach

Brother, I am done with this discussion. If we don’t agree after all this, then there is no point continuing. It’s ok. We are just going in circles.

No problem. I was just explaining my point after you questioned it.

Edited 16 hours ago by Valach

[Zenterus]

@Valach I disagree with your stance. If flirting and getting phone numbers was such a big deal to the women then the flake rate wouldn't be so high in daygame. 

By your logic, most numbers you get from daygame should convert into dates because the flirting and number exchange meant to much to the girl to the point that she's invested enough to be disappointed when you don't reach out.

Anyone who has ever done any cold approaching ever knows this is false.

Most numbers are flakes, even at an advanced level. A girl flakes because she doesnt care mucb about you or the interaction to see you again. Point. Blank. Period.

A guy who is learning to be better with women should absolutely go flirt with all kinds of women and practise the skillset.

You're greatly overestimating the fragility of women. They don't care as much as you think they do. 

[Valach]

1 hour ago, Zenterus said:

@Valach I disagree with your stance. If flirting and getting phone numbers was such a big deal to the women then the flake rate wouldn't be so high in daygame. 

By your logic, most numbers you get from daygame should convert into dates because the flirting and number exchange meant to much to the girl to the point that she's invested enough to be disappointed when you don't reach out.

Anyone who has ever done any cold approaching ever knows this is false.

Most numbers are flakes, even at an advanced level. A girl flakes because she doesnt care mucb about you or the interaction to see you again. Point. Blank. Period.

A guy who is learning to be better with women should absolutely go flirt with all kinds of women and practise the skillset.

You're greatly overestimating the fragility of women. They don't care as much as you think they do. 

I have done a fair share of daygame, I know most numbers are gonna be flakes. Especially for beginners or really anxious guys as @Miguel1 mentioned. I also do not think woman should be giving out their numbers if they are not interested. But I understand their struggles and know that is not gonna change.

But this is about us and our impact on others and dating scene. I thought we are on a forum about self development, not on some pickup forum and we try to approach things in better way.

I know most woman are gonna be fine with you not reaching out. It still setups a bad standart for yourself. You are essentially coming to a human being and starting a interaction with a LIE which is a big no-go and is gonna hinder a lot of general development for the guy.

 

I don't know guys. I probably live in an amazing city for daygame because I can literally find 10 woman that are attractive within an hour (and I assume that the guy who has had little success will have lower requirements than me), why the hell would I be approaching woman I am not attracted to?

As I said, there is some context to my claim. I am not saying that flirting with a woman on a party/club setting is some evil shit. Those environments are suited for that. But doing the typical daygame approach of seeing a woman and coming up and saying something: "Hey, I though you are cute/sexy and wanted to meet you." or something along those lines is just not the way to approach things at all in my opinion. If you want to practice social skills, go ahead and talk to them. But be honest - if you are not attracted do not pretend that you are. A lot of "flirting" skills can be practiced in a platonic coversation such as being funny, playfull, teasing her/him etc.

I am really baffled by this conversation since I expected especially you two to agree with me and not disagree. Even my local pickup coach (whom I really respect in terms of self developments) tells guys not to do this shit.

 

And I know that dating and meeting people is messy. I know that shit happens. Many times have it happened to me that I thought I liked some girl and it turned out I did not - either physically or mentally. I do not beat myself up for it and am honest about it (eg. not taking her number if I realize within the interaction).

I had the same approach in the past where I would just approach anyone and would even go on dates with woman I did not like that much just to practice (tbh I just lacked the self awareness) - what a sad way I lived my life.

Edited 4 hours ago by Valach

[Zenterus]

@Valach Your argument has no foundation. 

You went from using the pain that women feel from guys not texting them to now moralizing about the ethics and integrity behind flirting with a girl you're not attracted to, after your initial point fell flat.

And yes, you might live in a city where there are many attractive women concentrated in a small area -- or you just have low standards -- but that's not most guy's situation.

Additionally, not many guys have an hour to walk around and prowl the streets for girls. People have lives.

There's nothing wrong with approaching a girl and flirting with her just for the sake of it. In fact, its win win, in my opinion. I cant tell you how many times I approached a woman and had her thank me for flattering her with my attention because she was having a bad day or whatever.

Flirting with women is a skill that requires a lot of practise if you're a newbie. 

Applying your logic to the financial aspect would be like telling a man who has no skills or education not to apply to minimum wage jobs and only apply to the jobs he really wants (lawyer, doctor, etc). How's that gonna work out for him?

You have to start somewhere. 

And this is not me attacking you btw, bro. But you're just wrong.

 

[BlessedLion]

Come to Bali it's literally over flooded with beautiful women, i don't even react or look twice anymore