Should I Leave a Loving Relationship for Growth and Intellectual Compatibility?

[Jirh]

22 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Now make some money and you can afford to settle down with all of them.

For many things, but this is the highlight of insanity.

No quality woman who respects herself will accept this.

[LordFall]

3 hours ago, Jirh said:

For many things, but this is the highlight of insanity.

No quality woman who respects herself will accept this.

Why not? There are plenty of polyamorous couples raising kids. It has issues and sometimes people breakup but so do monogamous relationships. Its a new relationship paradigm and most people don't have the emotional intelligence for this but it totally works.

An easy way to look at it is most bisexual women would at least consider the idea. Most of them are probably too jealous to make it work but if they have a pleasant time dating you and you have good conflict resolution and communication skills I think probably 25% of them would be down. Maybe more. 

According to Gallup 7% of women are bisexual but according to Gen-z surveys it's more like 16% which matches up to the around 19% of women that report having had sex with another woman. 25-35% of women report being mostly heterosexual as opposed to fully straight.

So you'd end up like 2-10% of all women that would fit a dynamic like this. If your money is really good perhaps even straight women would be down so raise the percentage even more. 

That's why being in abundance is important, both to open your mind to different fun lifestyles that are possible but also even when your eyes are opened you need to be able to attract a wide number of women to screen for the ones that are most compatible for your desired life long term.  

 

Edited 58 minutes ago by LordFall

[integral]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

What's your MBTI type we clearly have vastly ways of seeing the world. I like to quantify things otherwise we are talking about vague generalities with no way of knowing if we're talking about the same thing. 

INTJ

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

This is a very straightforward statement. If you feel like your partner is 10/10 then you've won. Has nothing to do with what you're owed it's about the vision you have for your life. Some people have different requirements for their perfect 10

No it's not straightforward, it's loaded with a worldview and values. 

Quote

but if your suggestion is that if you find a 7/10 relationship you should be happy then you're coping. 

Coping with what? There was never a vision for a perfect relationship because they don't exist, and I have other things I find far more important to focus on 

It's easy to find people you're compatible with and then after that it's just a relationship. And you have to live a life.

And living that life won't be some Disney story miracle. Living a life is hard.

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

I'm not new to self-development I've been doing this for over a decade.

I was a chess master by the age of 12. I figured out self-development in elementary school.

 

Quote

I think you should find your 10/10 woman no matter what it takes. Then you find another 10/10 and fuck them both at once. Now you're at 20/10. Now you meditate on your life journey and you are grateful that the universe has such abundant blessings, now you're feeling 30/10. Now you work on your business and make a lot of money so you date them both and impregnate them both, now you're at a 50/10. Then you create social circles all around the world so you're not limited to one city and have both more sensual opportunities but really social and business connections throughout many countries, now now you're at 70/10. Why settle for a 7/10 relationship when you can have a 70/10 one? 

I'm exaggerating a bit(but not really this is my legitimate goal) to paint a picture but you get the point.

Okay so you have an extremely specific vision and now you're going to do everything you can to actualize it.

Why did you invent this vision?

Edited 3 hours ago by integral

[LordFall]

32 minutes ago, integral said:

INTJ

No it's not straightforward, it's loaded with a worldview and values. 

Coping with what? There was never a vision for a perfect relationship because they don't exist, and I have other things I find far more important to focus on 

It's easy to find people you're compatible with and then after that it's just a relationship. And you have to live a life.

And living that life won't be some Disney story miracle. Living a life is hard.

I was a chess master by the age of 12. I figured out self-development in elementary school.

 

Okay so you have an extremely specific vision and now you're going to do everything you can to actualize it.

Why did you invent this vision?

That makes sense I feel like I understand you better. INTJs are usually skeptical of INTP ideas because INTPs rely on intuition and leave like 30% of the plan in the air.

I would just say that I think chess is solid in terms of mastering pattern recognition perhaps even logic/reasoning but I don't know that I would draw a direct parallel to it. The main categories that are generally used are wealth, health, love and happiness. You can subdivide them into a lot of things but social development is a massive category of both wealth and love. As in having strong relationships that fulfill your goals in your personal life but also in terms of your impact on society and the world.

For me I'd say I became really results oriented after I became a top 0.01% challenger player in League of Legends. I was bad at the game before and then I read a forum post in like 2011 that just said most people think they are good or decent at the game and that holds them back a lot. They are actually shit at the game and when you realize that you can start to improve. That really changed my mindset because in LoL there is a victim mindset concept called ELO hell where basically people believe their team is holding them back because it's a 5v5 game but it actually makes no sense because you can have 4 bad players on your team but 5 on the other ones so if you're better than people you climb easily.

I then started being an ELO booster so getting played to improve people's rankings and I thought the psychological phenomenon was very strange but it's really everywhere in real life. If you make most things a skill ladder then most people think they are way higher than they are. When I was in high school I read a lot of pickup forums and when I was 19 I started taking seriously and you see the same thing there. People think they are high value dudes and can get hot girls and then get their egos crushed when they go to the club and either can't muster up the courage to go up to a girl or even when they do they get rejected and can't even attract women they're not attracted to.

The more I improved myself in that regard the cooler opportunities I got and the more obvious these concepts became to me. One that stands out in terms of status is in 2022 for my birthday my roommate that's a club promoter had a booth at rebel the biggest club in Canada and one guy took a group of hot girls brought them up on the booth and said hey this is Kyle he's a really cool dude you should makeout with him and the hottest girl in the group madeout with me within like 10 seconds. I was doing a lot of cold approach at that time and never had those results that quickly and definitely not with a girl that hot.

So if you've never had a pickup journey and even if you had but haven't played around with social circle/social media and fame game you can't understand the power it has. You will have the hottest women in the world be super down to fuck you pretty quickly. So when I read guys say that it's not a real thing, or shallow or just manipulation I think they don't understand how this works and have probably never tried themselves. A lot of times you can make it pretty binary if your dream women were stuck in a closet with you would they have the time of their life or have a traumatic experience and often times the answer is obvious. 

So when OP talks about getting a nice decent relationship but not being satisfied with it my answer is gonna be obviously bro you gotta go on the full journey it's so worth it. 

 

[integral]

35 minutes ago, LordFall said:

i would just say that I think chess is solid in terms of mastering pattern recognition perhaps even logic/reasoning but I don't know that I would draw a direct parallel to it.

The reason I said that was because for a child to become a chess master takes a massive amount of work in self development. I'm pointing to years of sustained continuous focus and effort in mastering one's own minds and application. Children are not doing this.

I'm talking about unlocking self development as a concept, understanding how to apply that to a larger domain of your life

Vast majority of people are not doing basic self development.

35 minutes ago, LordFall said:

So if you've never had a pickup journey and even if you had but haven't played around with social circle/social media and fame game you can't understand the power it has. You will have the hottest women in the world be super down to fuck you pretty quickly. So when I read guys say that it's not a real thing, or shallow or just manipulation I think they don't understand how this works and have probably never tried themselves. A lot of times you can make it pretty binary if your dream women were stuck in a closet with you would they have the time of their life or have a traumatic experience and often times the answer is obvious. 

So when OP talks about getting a nice decent relationship but not being satisfied with it my answer is gonna be obviously bro you gotta go on the full journey it's so worth it. 

The intoxicating effects of power.

 

Someone with power and Status gave you a hot girl to sit on your lap and have sex with. Obviously that's exciting, fun and intoxicating.

So you're addicted to this lifestyle and now your whole life purpose and vision is about it?

 

If you want to have a threesome that's perfectly fun and great but now you want to have two pregnant women? The real world requires actual responsibility and effort. You'll have to actually commit to these people and if they don't turn out to be the 10 out of 10 relationships that you want them to be there's no going back.

The real world of impregnating two hot girls in a polyamorous relationship is going to be very difficult. People are unstable, having relationships is hard enough as it is and you're making it out to be a fairy tale of power and ecstasy.

Edited 2 hours ago by integral

[integral]

@LordFall are you implying that the reason I'm pointing to chess is because I think I'm now skilled in everything in life?

Why would I make that conflation?

This is what we have to do here. give me the benefit of the doubt and assume I've been doing self development my entire life like you have.

So that we can have a proper conversation.

Reaching 0.01% at everything in life is a stage orange value.

Anyone can maximize any Dimension once they unlock basic self development in high Orange.

I view this as so natural and obvious it doesn't even have to be said.

Being able to master skills does not define you and your self-esteem and your entire Vision in life.

I view developing skills as Rudimentary, you have a goal you pursue it and you master it.

Edited 2 hours ago by integral

[LordFall]

I don't think anyone should get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to optimizing for a best life. You should be able to prove that your philosophy and actions matter otherwise you're just sharing an opinion which is cheap. I don't give my own opinion credit I fact check it and test it against reality every time. 

Yes I want to impregnate ideally 2 or 3 women and raise a lot of kids with them. I haven't tried polyamorous dating long term yet just have a few FWBs but generally the more women I have in my life the more I enjoy it so we'll see how it goes. 

It's not about being top 0.01% in arbitrary areas for the sake of it. It's about maximizing the key areas of your life. Which to me are my romantic relationships, my business, my family relationships, my social relationships and my greater impact on the world. 

If you aren't mastering dating you're gonna have predictably mediocre results that's what mediocre means. 

Mediocre : Mediocre is an adjective that describes something of average or ordinary quality. It refers to something that is barely acceptable, not very good, or lacking distinction—neither particularly outstanding nor notably poor.

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, LordFall said:

I don't think anyone should get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to optimizing for a best life. You should be able to prove that your philosophy and actions matter otherwise you're just sharing an opinion which is cheap. I don't give my own opinion credit I fact check it and test it against reality every time. 

Yes I want to impregnate ideally 2 or 3 women and raise a lot of kids with them. I haven't tried polyamorous dating long term yet just have a few FWBs but generally the more women I have in my life the more I enjoy it so we'll see how it goes. 

It's not about being top 0.01% are arbitrary things for the sake of it. It's about maximizing the key areas of your life. Which to me are my romantic relationships, my business, my family relationships, my social relationships and my greater impact on the world. 

If you aren't mastering dating you're gonna have predictably mediocre results that's what mediocre means. 

Mediocre : Mediocre is an adjective that describes something of average or ordinary quality. It refers to something that is barely acceptable, not very good, or lacking distinction—neither particularly outstanding nor notably poor.

But the proof to the other is kind of the issue.  This isn't strictly necessary,  

[LordFall]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But the proof to the other is kind of the issue.  This isn't strictly necessary,  

Of course it is to have a serious discussion. If you want to talk about astrophysics I can give you some random thoughts I have on it(planets are cool I'm looking forward to the space exploration timeline of humanity) but I have never worked in the field nor seriously researched it. You should not take my opinions as seriously as someone who is well experienced and credible in the field. 

Dating and relationships are a field like any other. People can have opinions grounded in reality or delusions or in between. Which is why I find a lot of dating arguments on this forum very low level and when I push people it often times reveals that they don't have any real experience that would qualify them to have a solid opinion, they just share how they generally feel. Which is fine do that but when I question you your arguments are gonna fall apart because they're not arguments they're just random opinions that you hold. Unless you can prove otherwise and then I'm willing to have a high quality conversation on it not really even a debate.

I think this is one of the most important areas of life and the more we work on it and talk about it the better our lives get. Religions have shamed sexuality and human relationships for long enough I'm tired of it. Let's make our dating experiences legendary and at the very least 10/10 if not better. 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[integral]

9 minutes ago, LordFall said:

I don't think anyone should get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to optimizing for a best life. You should be able to prove that your philosophy and actions matter otherwise you're just sharing an opinion which is cheap. I don't give my own opinion credit I fact check it and test it against reality every time. 

Yes I want to impregnate ideally 2 or 3 women and raise a lot of kids with them. I haven't tried polyamorous dating long term yet just have a few FWBs but generally the more women I have in my life the more I enjoy it so we'll see how it goes. 

It's not about being top 0.01% in arbitrary areas for the sake of it. It's about maximizing the key areas of your life. Which to me are my romantic relationships, my business, my family relationships, my social relationships and my greater impact on the world. 

If you aren't mastering dating you're gonna have predictably mediocre results that's what mediocre means. 

Mediocre : Mediocre is an adjective that describes something of average or ordinary quality. It refers to something that is barely acceptable, not very good, or lacking distinction—neither particularly outstanding nor notably poor.

I'm pointing to what results look like in the real world not in an ideal bubble.

- Ideal bubble: Romantic relationships, businesses family relationships, social relationships, greater impact on the world

- The real world: you develop a severe chronic health problem that prevents you from doing any of that.

And now you have to Define a model of the real world involving self-development.

 

The results a person is getting does not mean they don't understand self-development, this is the wrong epistemology.

What your pointy to is High orange values fully actualized in the world, that's not self development, that's idealism.

Edited 2 hours ago by integral

[LordFall]

12 minutes ago, integral said:

I'm pointing to what results look like in the real world not in an ideal bubble.

- Ideal bubble: Romantic relationships, businesses family relationships, social relationships, greater impact on the world

- The real world: you develop a severe chronic health problem that prevents you from doing any of that.

And now you have to Define a model of the real world involving self-development.

 

The results a person is getting does not mean they don't understand self-development, this is the wrong epistemology.

What your pointy to is High orange values fully actualized in the world, that's not self development, that's idealism.

No you're strawmaning my point. Most people do not have severe chronic health issues. If they did then of course they should align their results accordingly. Even then fuck it we're looking at great medical improvements in the next decade I think it's looking pretty good for people with health issues. I'm not a medical expert so take that part with deserved skepticism. 

I'm pointing to having a stage yellow integrated lifestyle. Having an integrate stage orange is part of it. Having an integrated stage green social life would be that your social endeavours benefit the world. Having a stage yellow one would be taking it the point that you understand systems thinking enough to scale your results and impact tremendously higher than an average person could. 

Also stage yellow quantifies stuff, it doesn't rely on vague generations to understand the world. If you yourself have health issues and thus don't have the energy necessary to maximize your social and dating life that's a whole other issue.

You haven't shared much about your life I got pretty personal on this forum you guys know basically everything about my dating life lol. We can't really have a serious discussion in generalities. Not everything has to be a debate, that's just one my preferred ways of communication. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[integral]

@LordFall 

The overall vision of self-development is correct. We're not debating on that.

Every time I point to a real-world constraint, you flip it as "develop 90% more." there's no outcome I could say that your frame would count as an actual limit rather than a personal failure to develop hard enough. 

A frame that turns every constraint into "you didn't level up enough" can't be wrong

If your frame can never be wrong, then you're not describing reality, it's good for motivation, but we're just talking about reality right now. Useful for life coaching, useless for understanding life.

Fully develop yourself, Max everything out. After all of it, life still involves compromise. Not because your under-developed but because that's what it means to operate in a real world 

[LordFall]

9 minutes ago, integral said:

@LordFall 

The overall vision of self-development is correct. We're not debating on that.

Every time I point to a real-world constraint, you flip it as "develop 90% more." there's no outcome I could say that your frame would count as an actual limit rather than a personal failure to develop hard enough. 

A frame that turns every constraint into "you didn't level up enough" can't be wrong

If your frame can never be wrong, then you're not describing reality, it's good for motivation, but we're just talking about reality right now. Useful for life coaching, useless for understanding life.

Fully develop yourself, Max everything out. After all of it, life still involves compromise. Not because your under-developed but because that's what it means to operate in a real world 

Wow it's almost like the universe is infinite and you have personal limiting beliefs that you keep projecting into our conversations. 

Self-awareness is key, if someone has some unchangeable life circumstances then they need to be aware of that and if they hire a coach their coach needs to be aware of it. Otherwise most of life is unlimited you just need energy and discipline.

I've falsified my position many times. If you're satisfied 10/10 with your dating life then reading about some other dude online who's doing it in a different way than you are will be irrelevant to you. I don't really know anyone who's 10/10 satisfied with their dating life though and in my experience there are glaringly obvious issues they're having. 

There are some compromises to be had but most men settle way before they hit anywhere near a hard limit they just have bad frameworks to improve their circumstances or their ego can't handle humbling themselves to the process. 

There are some hard limits like in polyamory there is something called poly-saturation where at some point the more partners you have you get diminishing returns but if you use hierarchical polyamory and you do the children thing with only 1-3 women you can probably add 10+ either play partners or long term companions to you and your main wives. 

Edited 49 minutes ago by LordFall

[LordFall]

Jealousy is very addressable solution in polyamory, it's an emotional intelligence skill as well as a communication one. You have to know your emotional triggers and soft/hard boundaries and how to communicate them to partners. There are whole books written on this. I read ethical slut, its pretty good I recommend it to people interested in the subject. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/n4gban/the_brief_poly_guide_to_jealousy/

There is also the concept of compersion which is getting joy from seeing your partner happy so your multiple women should be happy to see you fuck the other ones. Some people also take it to you being happy when your women fuck another man. I don't know how I feel about this but I am bisexual so it shouldn't be the biggest deal. I also believe in hierarchal polyamory so if the men are in my polycule and benefitting to my life that's a whole other issue than my women spending their energy on a random dude. 

Edited 38 minutes ago by LordFall

[integral]

@LordFall I'll believe it when you get those results.

Alot of woman in that dynamic will be jelouse and they cant be "educated" out of feeling it as that book implies. Im sure it will help.

The core problem in this conversation is everything has to be perfect, and you're debating Perfection as the only standard, and everything else is failure, mediocre, "wrong"

There is some truth to it, because most people in relationships dont apply themselves as they were not thought there is a higher level to relationships, so they get mediocre results.

At the same time, after doing all that, compromise is still necessary. <- the actual point im trying to make.

 

[integral]

29 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Wow it's almost like the universe is infinite and you have personal limiting beliefs that you keep projecting into our conversations. 

Its as if growth is not always possible for the other people in our lives. Causing concessions we have to work around.

Edited 25 minutes ago by integral

[LordFall]

6 minutes ago, integral said:

@LordFall I'll believe it when you get those results.

Alot of woman in that dynamic will be jelouse and they cant be "educated" out of feeling it as that book implies. Im sure it will help.

The core problem in this conversation is everything has to be perfect, and you're debating Perfection as the only standard, and everything else is failure, mediocre, "wrong"

There is some truth to it, because most people in relationships dont apply themselves as they were not thought there is a higher level to relationships, so they get mediocre results.

At the same time, after doing all that, compromise is still necessary. <- the actual point im trying to make.

 

You're speaking in generalizations. I've already said I guess maybe but most men don't make compromises on actual real limits. This is what I'm trying to point out.

We're debating multiple points or verticals of optimizations you can say. I want my dating life to be basically as perfect as it can be, you don't have to hold yourself to the same standard if you don't want to.

We've talked about :

1) Partner attractiveness

2) Partner compatibility

3) The quality of your social circle 

4) Your impact as an individual

5) And now we're talking about polyamory and how feasible it is. I am not in a polyamorous relationship so I can only point to the other people that have done it successfully. 

5 minutes ago, integral said:

Its as if growth is not always possible for the other people in our lives. Causing concessions we have to work around.

Sure but if you're single you can pick already optimal partner or growth based partners. It's hard to attract optimal partners so people usually cope and go full sour grapes mode. 

Edited 21 minutes ago by LordFall