What is insight you learned from Actualized org that you like the most?

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys really love the "not even Leo" part. 

They are in comparative mode lol.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

They are in comparative mode lol.

It is more sneaky than that.

People love the "not even Leo" part because it allows them an escape valve to maintain their self-deceptions. Any time the ego hears something from me that it dislikes, the ego can just say, "Well, even Leo says he could be self-deceived, so this is that." But is it really?

Is Leo self-decieved, or are you?

That's the billion dollar question.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is more sneaky than that.

People love the "not even Leo" part because it allows them an escape valve to maintain their self-deceptions. Any time the ego hears something from me that it dislikes, the ego can just say, "Well, even Leo says he could be self-deceived, so this is that." But is it really?

Is Leo self-decieved, or are you?

That's the billion dollar question.

It ain't that deep. It may not occur to people that this fact applies to you as well - it's a reminder that you're not special.

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

It ain't that deep. It may not occur to people that this fact applies to you as well - it's a reminder that you're not special.

Self-deception is that deep.

Of course not always. Sometimes I am just wrong. But how do you know when its which?

How do you know that "Leo is wrong" is not your self-deception?

That's what makes self-deception so devious. Self-deception corrupts your ability to judge self-deception.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Self-deception is that deep.

Of course not always. Sometimes I am just wrong.

Not excluding anyone from that category - that's the use of the phrase.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, UnbornTao said:

Not excluding anyone from that category - that's the use of the phrase.

Of course no one is excluded from being wrong. But the ego will use this truth against you.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course no one is excluded from being wrong.

I meant self-deceived, not wrong. 

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

Just now, UnbornTao said:

I meant self-deceived, not wrong. 

Same thing.

[UnbornTao]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Same thing.

Hmmmm...

I'll believe you, master.

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, UnbornTao said:

Hmmmm...

I'll believe you, master.

Do you fear you are being deceived?

[UnbornTao]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Do you fear you are being deceived?

Not really. I was doubting whether the claim is true or not. After all, two different terms are used.

It seems to me you can be wrong without being self-deceived.

The deepest deception is implicit and occurs in the background without us knowing. It isn't usually a deliberate or willful manipulation but a more subtle process.

Edited 1 hour ago by UnbornTao

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Not really. I was doubting whether the claim is true or not. After all, two different terms are used.

It seems to me you can be wrong without being self-deceived.

How can one be wrong without being self-deceived?

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Hmmmm...

I'll believe you, master.

Cute deflection, padawan.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

🤔 

Is Mars a planet? A belief? A word? A picture? A corporation?  A video game?

Aww shit

Edited 37 minutes ago by Yimpa

[UnbornTao]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

How can one be wrong without being self-deceived?

When you believe a reliable source that turns out to be wrong, for example. Plain 'honest' ignorance. Not having enough information.

Making mistakes - scientific, mathematical. It seems to me, these don't necessarily imply that one is self-deceived.

Self-deception may require something extra. Ignoring evidence, for example.

[Joseph Maynor]

7 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

When you believe a reliable source that turns out to be wrong, for example. Plain 'honest' ignorance. Not having enough information.

Making mistakes - scientific, mathematical. It seems to me, these don't necessarily imply that one is self-deceived.

Self-deception may require something extra. Ignoring evidence, for example.

But reliable source implies a kind of trust that goes beyond direct experience, no?

[UnbornTao]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Cute deflection, padawan.

Are you self-deceived when you trust an AI video to be from a real human, or just wrong?

Even without motivated, misleading interpretations, you can just make mistakes.

[UnbornTao]

20 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But reliable source implies a kind of trust that goes beyond direct experience, no?

Seems that way.

Deception can be applied to everyday matters, too - like what kind of information you listen to and believe in. As far as I can tell, this has little to do with direct experience.

Edited 29 minutes ago by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

Splitting hairs over wrong/self-deception is silly.

Can you distinguish them? Of course. But there is no need to do so in this discussion.

You really think I don't know the difference between these two concepts?

[UnbornTao]

I created the need, and it fostered a good discussion. 

They were the same thing; now they are two concepts - already differentiated.

We're sharpening our skills here.