Starving Patriarchy

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

Because fairness is just one metric.

There is also survival, liberty, caring, etc.

If patriarchy was just about exploiting women it wouldn’t have developed chivalry and assigned men to dangerous tasks.

If it was just about exploiting nature there wouldn’t be conservation efforts in most cultures. 

How does chivalry help women? This is benevolent misogyny. If you want to help women, stop expecting invisible labor, stop raping and making women feel unsafe, stop watching porn, stop supporting this industry, stop protecting predatory men, stop bullying feminists. 

Exploitation of women is part of patriarchy. 

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

Based on what? How do you know it isn’t something else? 

Because this is obvious, if you live on earth for a while.

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, enchanted said:

It's like I'm talking to a brainwashed zombie. So cringe. 

Just because I support feminism doesn't mean I support your incoherent angry dribble. 

Nah, you don't support feminism. You’re just an incel and a misogynist. If you supported feminism, you wouldn't talk to a woman like that.

[enchanted]

11 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Nah, you don't support feminism. You’re just an incel and a misogynist. If you supported feminism, you wouldn't talk to a woman like that.

You sound more like a witch or a demon or a psychopath. I speak to you like a would to a serial killer - with well deserved contempt and disdain.

Edited 2 hours ago by enchanted

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, enchanted said:

You sound more like a witch or a demon or a psychopath. I speak to you like a would to a serial killer - with very little respect 

This is too dramatic. You are the first one who started with those childish tantrums because I didn't validate your bias as you expected. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19997098/

Study:

To me this study debunks claims about patriarchal structures being socially conditioned, as we see the male hormone can increase desire for fairness.

It also explains how women’s bias towards men caused by false feminist understandings leads to actually worse behavior when they feel they need to replicate male behaviors to succeed, they assume they should behave less fairly because they were given the male hormone.

I think it has been shown that testosterone doesn't make one more aggressive or treat others unfairly (but this is certainly a thing it can do). I may be mistaken, but it appears to enhance affect and qualities already present . I think the effects of testosterone are now believed to be more context dependant and socially mediated than we previously assumed.

Although, if women who took a placebo and reported more aggression and unfair treatment in the behaviour - this is pointing to conditioning. Fascinating, because it suggests cultural narratives about testosterone can themselves shape behaviour and self-perception through expectancy effects. Pointing to a possible inherent bias from women they are unaware of given new scientific breakthroughs.

The flipside to this would also be true for oestrogen, or the myriad female hormones.

The clean cut between biology and social conditioning is just not there. Claiming otherwise is a failure in applying reductionism.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Guys please, do not make this about attacking each others character traits or expressing your judgements.

Remain on topic, talking about concepts, ideas and thoughts.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

How does chivalry help women? This is benevolent misogyny.
 

Because chivalry affords women a variety of privileges from major to minor.

Minor: open doors for them, pay for dates, generally get more positive regard in some cases

Major: priorities in safety and assistance. An example is how when ships crash women and children are evacuated first. 

A study found when men were instructed to treat women with benevolent sexism they rated them as nice and normal, but when men were told to treat women exactly as they would a man, women perceived them as hostile sexists 

https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/items/0338425c-d7c7-4c4e-b7be-cacf9946dcd0

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

 

Because this is obvious, if you live on earth for a while.

It isn’t, there are many other explanations.

Men are less likely to take vacations and more likely to work overtime. Surveys find in careers men focus more on money and are more likely to take risks. Women are more likely to choose to work less after they have children to spend more time caring for them whereas men are more likely to work more. 

Men also report more interest in increasing their status and advancement to leadership roles.

Edited 1 hour ago by Raze

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Raze Men also perform a lot of unpaid labour in house maintenance. A lot goes into owning a house and maintaining it in good order. 

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Because chivalry affords women a variety of privileges from major to minor.

Minor: open doors for them, pay for dates, generally get more positive regard in some cases

Major: priorities in safety and assistance. An example is how when ships crash women and children are evacuated first. 

A study found when men were instructed to treat women with benevolent sexism they rated them as nice and normal, but when men were told to treat women exactly as they would a man, women perceived them as hostile sexists 

https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/items/0338425c-d7c7-4c4e-b7be-cacf9946dcd0

It isn’t, there are many other explanations.

Men are less likely to take vacations and more likely to work overtime. Surveys find in careers men focus more on money and are more likely to take risks. Women are more likely to choose to work less after they have children to spend more time caring for them whereas men are more likely to work more. 

Men also report more interest in increasing their status and advancement to leadership roles.

Open doors and paying on dates is a nice gesture, but this is not enough for a gender that does most of the labor in the world and is paid half of what it deserves. 

In patriarchy, there are often two options: either benevolent misogyny or standard misogyny. Of course, women would prefer the benevolent one because it appears softer, as it masks itself as kindness. But this is still misogyny not real love, kindness, appreciation, or respect. Women are socialized to expect so little from men, and the bar is set very low.

Men working more helps usually themselves, gives them more opportunities to focus on their careers, self actualize, have more power in society, more dating opportunities and have more money, while women being at home raising the children of both of them are not paid for it, do not accumulate wealth in this time, do not progress in their careers, and are exposed to being financially vulnerable and dependent on men. The stakes are too high for a woman. Being a woman in a patriarchal system is the biggest risk, but without all the glory and money men receive.

Please go through the resources shared in this thread, if you really want to learn and open minded. I am tired from going in circles an replying to the same arguments over and over again.

Edited 48 minutes ago by Lila9

[Lila9]

Women are expected to prevent male violence, survive male violence, report male violence, prove male violence, and recover from male violence silently. So much invisible struggle.

[Raze]

25 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Open doors and paying on dates is a nice gesture, but this is not enough for a gender that does most of the labor in the world and is paid half of what it deserves. 

There’s no evidence women are paid half of what they deserve. They earn less as a whole but that’s primarily because they earn less by working less and in less profitable fields. In most western countries paying a woman less for being a woman is legally discrimination.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

If you’re counting “unpaid labor” like housework and raising children, that happens generally in the context of a man providing for them by spending more hours working. That need would also exist regardless because of the property or child.

Women don’t do most of the labor in the world. Men as a whole work more hours.

As a whole men are larger contributors to tax revenue while women are less. Meaning men as a group disproportionately are doing labor that is taxed and women as a group disproportionately receive government resources using said taxes.

25 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

In patriarchy, there are often two options: either benevolent misogyny or standard misogyny. Of course, women would prefer the benevolent one because it appears softer, as it masks itself as kindness. But this is still misogyny not real love, kindness, appreciation, or respect. Women are socialized to expect so little from men, and the bar is set very low.

.

 

No, studies find women are more selective and have higher demands than men for partners 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain-sciences/article/sex-differences-in-human-mate-preferences-evolutionary-hypotheses-tested-in-37-cultures/0E112ACEB2E7BC877805E3AC11ABC889

25 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Men working more helps usually themselves, gives them more opportunities to focus on their careers, self actualize, have more power in society, more dating opportunities and have more money, while women being at home raising the children of both of them are not paid for it, do not accumulate wealth in this time, do not progress in their careers, and are exposed to being financially vulnerable and dependent on men. The stakes are too high for a woman. Being a woman in a patriarchal system is the biggest risk, but without all the glory and money men receive.

Men working more is also a contributing reason why men die sooner than women.

Survey data finds working fathers would like to work less and spend more time with their families.

This is isn’t a system men collectively decided to do. If a man said he’ll be the house husband and his wife can just work and provide for him while he watches the kids most women reject this split of duties

16 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Women are expected to prevent male violence, survive male violence, report male violence, prove male violence, and recover from male violence silently. So much invisible struggle.

Insofar as that’s true that’s an expectation for all people for any hardship. People need to take precautions and recover from threats and seek restitution provide evidence for action to be taken. 
 

Edited 28 minutes ago by Raze

[Lila9]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

There’s no evidence women are paid half of what they deserve. They earn less as a whole but that’s primarily because they earn less by working less and in less profitable fields.

If you’re counting “unpaid labor” like housework and raising children, that happens generally in the context of a man providing for them.

Women don’t do most of the labor in the world.

As a whole men contribute more to the tax revenue and women are given more resources from it.

No, studies find women are more selective and have higher demands than men for partners 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614656/

Men working more is also a contributing reason why men die sooner than women.

Survey data finds working fathers would like to work less and spend more time with their families.

This is isn’t a system men collectively decided to do. If a man said he’ll be the house husband and his wife can just work and provide for him while he watches the kids most women reject this split of duties

Insofar as that’s true that’s an expectation for all people for any hardship. People need to take precautions and recover from threats and seek restitution provide evidence for action to be taken. 
 

I already covered it here:

 

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I already covered it here

- The jobs are valued based on demand and supply; not whether a woman is doing them or not.

- Men’s jobs aren’t inherently more valued than women’s. See this chart. Many men’s jobs are more dangerous and less profitable than many women’s jobs.

- Women themselves choose to prioritize spending time with family and doing housework over working more and seeking men who earn more to provide for this. Thats not the fault of patriarchy. If it is; this is women’s fault for upholding it.

 

Quote

Also, for true equality, we need men to want to be equal to women. It’s not enough for women to strive to be equal to men. Men also need to develop more emotional intelligence to be able to share the burden of emotional labor that women do. Men also need to be able to take care of children and do house chores. If women can work, raise children, and do house chores at the same time, men can too. If men don’t strive to be equal to women, no matter how many laws there are, it wouldn’t work. We need two to tango.

Men do more housework and more child care than ever before, yet marriage rates are collapsing and attacks on men’s role only amplify.

The whole “emotional labor” thing is nonsense, women have far more demands for a man to support her emotionally than the other way around. If a woman said she broke up with him because he never brought her flowers, or gifts, or listened to her talk about her problems, that’s expected, if a man said that people would think he’s strange. 

 

Edited 10 minutes ago by Raze