Is there an unconscious mind ?

[Someone here]

@Mellowmarsh you are right . Imma erase my comments I think it’s rude .

[gettoefl]

16 hours ago, Someone here said:

Thanks man I find your post very lighthearted and informative but I don’t see the connection with my question. 
if we have deep psychological insecurities or wounds then how to erase them from our software entirely? I likened it to cleansing the body from toxins by doing water fasting .. in a similar sense ..how to cleanse the mind from toxins? 

Likewise and thanks good man for your earnest contemplations. The point I make is, identification is the root 0f all evil. That's what needs dropping. You need to see you are not the you that you think you are. The body acts and then you claim yourself the doer. You need to notice and drop it. You are not something that can be put in words. Identification is interfering with and obscuring what is. It prevents you from seeing. Spiritual work is undoing the false I. This is what Robert Adams among many others teaches.

[Breakingthewall]

17 hours ago, Someone here said:

Thanks man I find your post very lighthearted and informative but I don’t see the connection with my question. 
if we have deep psychological insecurities or wounds then how to erase them from our software entirely? I likened it to cleansing the body from toxins by doing water fasting .. in a similar sense ..how to cleanse the mind from toxins? 

The only way to overcome this is to step outside the human matrix that defines you according to what you mean to the group and be who you truly are, without any attachments.

You are reality in a form, and the perfection and harmony of that form is the one of the universe. All the human pressure, your emotional deficiencies, the lack of love, the feeling of being unworthy, all burn away in an instant when you exist without the human mirror.

When you exist in your totality, you realize your true dimension. You have to be brave; you have to be alone in the cosmos, but truly, not as an idea. This never happens suddenly. At first, you have moments of openness lasting two seconds, and the contraction returns instantly. It's a work of years, perhaps three or four years from your first moment of total openness. Your body reconfigures itself; there are moments of true imbalance. Your intuition must be precise, and little by little, openness to the totality becomes your natural state.

[Someone here]

6 hours ago, gettoefl said:

Likewise and thanks good man for your earnest contemplations. The point I make is, identification is the root 0f all evil. That's what needs dropping. You need to see you are not the you that you think you are. The body acts and then you claim yourself the doer. You need to notice and drop it. You are not something that can be put in words. Identification is interfering with and obscuring what is. It prevents you from seeing. Spiritual work is undoing the false I. This is what Robert Adams among many others teaches.

Thank you . There have been clear as the sun at 12 PM recognition inside of me of this particular insight that I’m not the doer . Like I literally have no idea what Is sourcing every single word I’m writing right now . I mean it’s not complicated but a bit wacky : no one and no thing . But would you agree that this might  make the character you appear to show up as in the world less responsible? Because now you get to fuck up all you want and use the excuse “ well I’m not the doer “. I’m not mixing a fact with an ought but it’s like I’m puzzled by this for ten years now lol .

[Someone here]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The only way to overcome this is to step outside the human matrix that defines you according to what you mean to the group and be who you truly are, without any attachments.

You are reality in a form, and the perfection and harmony of that form is the one of the universe. All the human pressure, your emotional deficiencies, the lack of love, the feeling of being unworthy, all burn away in an instant when you exist without the human mirror.

When you exist in your totality, you realize your true dimension. You have to be brave; you have to be alone in the cosmos, but truly, not as an idea. This never happens suddenly. At first, you have moments of openness lasting two seconds, and the contraction returns instantly. It's a work of years, perhaps three or four years from your first moment of total openness. Your body reconfigures itself; there are moments of true imbalance. Your intuition must be precise, and little by little, openness to the totality becomes your natural state.

Thank you I actually gave it a little comprehension and it makes sense what your saying .

It is not about acting out or behaving authentically in front of people . I always spit the truth . I never dance around the bush . When my sister’s kid reached 8 years old he started asking where is god and why can’t we see him to everyone in the household and I told him flat out in front of my family that you grow up first and make up your own mind about such matters. Whereas all my family who are Hindus told him god is everywhere..god is in your soul . 
But I do have some deep feelings of not being totally ok with “what is” .  I figured it is the only thing to do in life. My guru told  me life cannot be understood.. it can only be accepted. That line has been echoing in my skull ever since.  Let’s riff off on this point .

[Breakingthewall]

58 minutes ago, Someone here said:

My guru told  me life cannot be understood.. it can only be accepted. 

Life is very easy to understand: reality manifests as change, fluctuation, because changeless is no manifestation.

Fluctuations group into possible patterns. Life is a pattern that self-preserves, repairs itself, and in doing so evolves.

The possible combinations are limitless, and you, being human, are one of them. Forms originate and disappear eternally because nothing can limit them. Any form is total reality manifesting as form.

Being human, there is consciousness, perception, the awareness of change. This perception can turn back to that which does not change, to the totality, and recognize itself.

As a human, you are an eye that observes change but can also observe itself and recognize what it is. What is is the totality, the abyss without bottom, but above all, it is you, not another.

When you look at yourself, the observer and the observed are one. It is not a "normal" experience, as Spira or Ralston say; it is a brutal experience, as Al-Hallaj or Christ say. You are the reality, and you can be fully aware of it without the slightest doubt, then you will see something like obvious that for some reason was veiled to you, your mind will expand without limit, you will cry, say alleluia and that, and a while later you will be in dense state again and you won't remember what exactly was that.

But if you do many times, little by little your structure will reconfigure, the contraction will release and the totality will transparent itself full time in your experience, then the psychological is little by little erased and the absolute will little by little look through your eyes. 

Edited April 18 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Life is very easy to understand: reality manifests as change, fluctuation, because changeless is no manifestation.

Fluctuations group into possible patterns. Life is a pattern that self-preserves, repairs itself, and in doing so evolves.

The possible combinations are limitless, and you, being human, are one of them. Forms originate and disappear eternally because nothing can limit them. Any form is total reality manifesting as form.

Being human, there is consciousness, perception, the awareness of change. This perception can turn back to that which does not change, to the totality, and recognize itself.

As a human, you are an eye that observes change but can also observe itself and recognize what it is. What is is the totality, the abyss without bottom, but above all, it is you, not another.

When you look at yourself, the observer and the observed are one. It is not a "normal" experience, as Spira or Ralston say; it is a brutal experience, as Al-Hallaj or Christ say. You are the reality, and you can be fully aware of it without the slightest doubt, then you will see something like obvious that for some reason was veiled to you, your mind will expand without limit, you will cry, say alleluia and that, and a while later you will be in dense state again and you won't remember what exactly was that.

But if you do many times, little by little your structure will reconfigure, the contraction will release and the totality will transparent itself full time in your experience, then the psychological is little by little erased and the absolute will little by little look through your eyes. 

To say that life is “very easy to understand “ is sheer ignorance. Because if you actually investigated your mind you’d find that the mind is literally infinite or as you like to call it “bottomless “. This means I can conjure up an entire worldview out of my ass. I can argue with you back and forth for endless time without reaching any conclusion. This is the nature of the mind . It’s like the Y axis on a math chart going up to infinity upwards if you add more relative knowledge and more information and models . Physicists ..philosophers..religious leaders have been checking out each thought in existence since the dawn of time to no avail . Please hold on to your thoughts or this conceptual model for three seconds. It’s not possible. It dissolves like a mirage . It’s just words . 
but if you go downward in the y axis you substract knowledge and concepts from yourself like our fellow James123 and you end up empty headed with nothing to know or understand.  For these people these things are laughable they can’t relate because their minds is empty they don’t understand what is the problem with anything. Who is seeking what ?

anyways I didn’t ask for an ontology or ToE. 

Edited April 18 by Someone here

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

To say that life is “very easy to understand “ is sheer ignorance. Because if you actually investigated your mind you’d find that the mind is literally infinite or as you like to call it “bottomless “. This means I can conjure up an entire worldview out of my ass. I can argue with you back and forth for endless time without reaching any conclusion. This is the nature of the mind . It’s like the Y axis on a math chart going up to infinity upwards if you add more relative knowledge and more information and models . Physicists ..philosophers..religious leaders have been checking out each thought in existence since the dawn of time to no avail . Please hold on to your thoughts or this conceptual model for three seconds. It’s not possible. It dissolves like a mirage . It’s just words . 
but if you go downward in the y axis you substract knowledge and concepts from yourself like our fellow James123 and you end up empty headed with nothing to know or understand.  For these people these things are laughable they can’t relate because their minds is empty they don’t understand what is the problem with anything. Who is seeking what ?

anyways I didn’t ask for an ontology or ToE. 

I just told you something obvious because you said that your guru said that life is impossible to understand and it's possible and easy.

Anyway, the point isn't to understand, but to open yourself to the whole, to break free from the contraction. It's also simple to explain but very difficult to do. I think it's important to know exactly what it is because otherwise you end up on dead ends.

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

would you agree that this might  make the character you appear to show up as in the world less responsible? Because now you get to fuck up all you want and use the excuse “ well I’m not the doer “. I’m not mixing a fact with an ought but it’s like I’m puzzled by this for ten years now lol .

The meaning of the word "responsible" changes. The world does not cause unhappiness but is the effect. I blamed the world for my troubles. But I am the one who projected all this. I am responsible for what I have done and what others have done is what I made them do! And when I say "others" I am part of that group since I have projected myself here and that is why there is no doer. I am carrying out a script that I made myself do. 

I am responsible for myself nothing else. And the key is to stop misidentifying as the doer. You can understand it but can you realize it? This is the work.

Life goes on exactly the same but you stop interfering and stop resisting. Interfere means to add to what is and resist means to oppose what is. For example, John is bad = interference. John is bad and I am angry about it = resistance. Life is happening and is fine as it is. When identification goes then truth dawns,

Edited April 18 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I can argue with you back and forth for endless time without reaching any conclusion.

Yes you would reach the inevitable conclusion that any manifestation is relative change. We are talking about understanding not about knowing 

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

But I am the one who projected all this. I am responsible for what I have done and what others have done is what I made them do! And when I say "others" I am part of that group since I have projected myself here and that is why there is no doer. I am carrying out a script that I made myself do. 

Not to press you but couple things:

1- how is this known for a fact in your experience?  I’m not saying I don’t agree. I just want to get it from your perspective.
2- square me the paradox of there is no “I “ yet “I “ am responsible still ? I like to think of flexible definitions for the “I” but in reality there aren’t two “Is” obviously right ?

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

am responsible for myself nothing else. And the key is to stop misidentifying as the doer. You can understand it but can you realize it? This is the work.

40 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

This is just a mess, forget about anything and look your fear. Sit in silence, stop the mind and feel your fear. It's in the mind, in the body, in your movement, in your cells, in your breath. 

Forget about doer, responsibility, troubles or anything, just feel your fear. The primordial fear that keep you imprisoned in a bubble of separation. Don't hide that fear, let it manifest in the surface. Then you will see that ultimately it's fear to dissolution . Stare the dissolution, without mind. Not the idea, but the real death. Accept if on real, without seconds ideas. Stare the black hole and disappear in it. 

Do this as often as you can, with of without psychedelics, and enlightenment will come. 

[gettoefl]

39 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Not to press you but couple things:

1- how is this known for a fact in your experience?  I’m not saying I don’t agree. I just want to get it from your perspective.
2- square me the paradox of there is no “I “ yet “I “ am responsible still ? I like to think of flexible definitions for the “I” but in reality there aren’t two “Is” obviously right ?

Let me take second question. The body-mind-I is not the true-I. All the body-minds you see are the projection of true-I. Body-minds have no responsibility since they are carrying out their script. True-I has created everything and so is responsible. You need to align with true-I.

First question - as a body-mind-I, I can do nothing. But I can experience peace. This is the clue that I am on track and moving towards truth. Peace basically is nothing troubles me anymore. Peace is as far as the body-mind-I can go. Now I can be used by true I to communicate but I have no say in it. But a lot can get done now that I am batting for the right team. My words could move a mountain perhaps as Jesus suggested.

Edited April 18 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Let me take second question. The body-mind-I is not the true-I. All the body-minds you see are the projection of true-I. Body-minds have no responsibility since they are carrying out their script. True-I has created everything and so is responsible. You need to align with true-I.

That's religion, that will trap you. The point is empty your mind. Then we can elaborate concepts clean of any influence, direct from the observation. Where did you observed a true I and a body mind projected? 

Now you could say: you tell this but before you wrote a brunch of concepts. Where is the difference?

[gettoefl]

56 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's religion, that will trap you. The point is empty your mind. Then we can elaborate concepts clean of any influence, direct from the observation. Where did you observed a true I and a body mind projected? 

Now you could say: you tell this but before you wrote a brunch of concepts. Where is the difference?

Everything is a device, religion included. A story is needed to shake one awake. What is said is done so to be helpful. To the absolute, there is nothing to change. I agree. Everything happening has to happen. But this is unhelpful and irresponsible to one who is suffering. So it is good to point the way. To give is to receive. One only ever benefits oneself and that is why one speaks or more accurately lets oneself be spoken through. Like I said, I am doing everything to myself and this life is my responsibility.

And what is the way? Become aware of what you truly are.

Everything I say one can become directly conscious of.

Edited April 18 by gettoefl

[Someone here]

I would like to revive this thread because this inquiry is an issue for me for a while now . 
I wrote this today in my journal . If anyone got insights regarding this topic, please share .

“Lately, I require more hours of sleep than I normally do. It does not feel like ordinary physical tiredness. My body does not necessarily feel exhausted, and I do not have a headache or any particular discomfort in my head. It is something subtler. my mind is tired. Not my head or brain .

There is a kind of tension within me that I find difficult to locate. It is not in my head, not in my brain, not in any physical place I can point to. It exists somewhere in the experience of being conscious . Or rather in my subconscious mind because Even when I am doing nothing, some part of me seems to remain occupied. Thinking. Anticipating. Worrying about things that have not happened. Trying to understand things that may not have an answer either In the moment or at all . There is an invisible effort involved in all of this, and its exhausting and I’m not sure how to resolve this issue without resorting to bad habits like smoking .

 

When I sleep, I am temporarily released from myself.there is no need to hold myself together. For those hours, the constant internal  subconscious activity becomes quiet. Maybe that is why I need more sleep lately “ .

 

 

and this is OP; “ I was meditating by watching my thoughts arise and fade while remaining as a witness to them which is the simplest meditation technique to me . It simply shows the gap between awareness and the mind or the thinking process. Thoughts which arise in my consciousness are not coming  from my own authoring ..they arise on their own and also the mind chatter itself is very clearly and sharply distinct from awareness in the sense that I can observe the mind blabbering from a distance without me needing to engage with  it.  I have made that line very clear.
A lot of times I reach a moment of complete silence of thoughts where there aren’t any thoughts at all present in my awareness but I still feel bad or restless in the back of my mind. I still feel tensed . My facial expression is disturbed and my body is tight instead of loose . I concluded it is because of years of conditioning and years of suffering and memories and the subconscious mind . But if all of what I mentioned now are not accessible directly in my awareness when I reach the zero thoughts phase in meditation..then where are they present ? The only answer that comes up to me is they are in the unconscious mind . But how can something exist and be unconscious? Either a thing is conscious or it doesn’t exist.  What am I not getting or getting wrong ?“.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Someone here

[LastThursday]

I'd say it depends on what paradigm you want to choose. This stood out:

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Either a thing is conscious or it doesn’t exist.

Seen from this point of view unconsciousness is non-existence. My logical process would be something like this:

How comes then things come in and out of consciousness? What "maintains" those things when they go out of conscious awareness? Maybe it's like a computer game where characters become live when they need to, but at other times go dormant as data on a harddrive. Maybe unconsciousness is like a dormant non-existent state in some sense. That begs the question, how is it those things that come back into consciousness change with the passing of time? And that opens up a whole can of worms, for example, is my mother today the same mother I saw yesterday? What does same even mean? Also if a thing "goes dormant" how comes it changes when you're not consciously aware of it?

I would say there is also a problem with the scope of "unconsciousness". If unconsciousness is the sum of all things you're not conscious off, does that then include most of the universe, is it your unconscious any more? It's much easier to argue for possession of conscious experience, somehow its narrower and more well defined.

I'd move the goalposts and say that there is conscious existence, and unconscious existence, and they're different in some way.

Edited 51 minutes ago by LastThursday
typo

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I’m not sure how to resolve this issue without resorting to bad habits like smoking. 

then where are they present ? The only answer that comes up to me is they are in the unconscious mind . But how can something exist and be unconscious? Either a thing is conscious or it doesn’t exist.  What am I not getting or getting wrong ?“.

You need to take complete and total responsibility for this. You are getting lost in emotions and misunderstandings when you start describing this experience. have you seen a mouse run on a wheel before without going anywhere? You need to be completely honest with yourself and own your beliefs. You are creating this emotion and issue, which it comes from a belief. Somewhere in your belief system you are holding onto something that is not true for your true self.

Are you familiar with self inquiry? Take a couple deep breaths and own it. Go get a pen and piece of paper. write: "I am choosing to create this issue because _______." Keep writing answers. Write what you think/believe not what you feel. Look up "Wu Wei Wisdom" on YouTube specifically the "Golden Thread Process." A very powerful self inquiry method. You are confusing yourself because there are a number of things you do not yet understand about emotions, beliefs and what you label the mind. Do not spend more time describing your internal feelings and going into trying to locate it and whatnot. That is just a sophisticated way for you to continue to dilute yourself because you aren't grounding it in the source of where it is coming from. You are putting the kart before the horse.

On some level you are lying to yourself, you aren't conscious of how right now for a number reasons, a good bit which you will come to discover and understand because they are your own personal story. Fundamentally you are believing something which is not true for your spirit. You need to really fully understand why and decide if you wish to no longer lie to yourself and live with integrity or continue the self deluding. 

Edited 38 minutes ago by Lyubov

[Someone here]

@LastThursday @Lyubov Thanks . I’m going to read and respond soon .

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

You need to take complete and total responsibility for this. You are getting lost in emotions and misunderstandings when you start describing this experience. have you seen a mouse run on a wheel before without going anywhere? You need to be completely honest with yourself and own your beliefs. You are creating this emotion and issue, which it comes from a belief. Somewhere in your belief system you are holding onto something that is not true for your true self.

Are you familiar with self inquiry? Take a couple deep breaths and own it. Go get a pen and piece of paper. write: "I am choosing to create this issue because _______." Keep writing answers. Write what you think/believe not what you feel. Look up "Wu Wei Wisdom" on YouTube specifically the "Golden Thread Process." A very powerful self inquiry method. You are confusing yourself because there are a number of things you do not yet understand about emotions, beliefs and what you label the mind. Do not spend more time describing your internal feelings and going into trying to locate it and whatnot. That is just a sophisticated way for you to continue to dilute yourself because you aren't grounding it in the source of where it is coming from. You are putting the kart before the horse.

On some level you are lying to yourself, you aren't conscious of how right now for a number reasons, a good bit which you will come to discover and understand because they are your own personal story. Fundamentally you are believing something which is not true for your spirit. You need to really fully understand why and decide if you wish to no longer lie to yourself and live with integrity or continue the self deluding. 

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree that I’m deluding myself or consciously creating this issue. The discomfort is real. I’m not choosing to experience it, and I’m not inventing it because of some belief that I’m refusing to acknowledge.

The fact that I don’t know the source of the discomfort doesn’t mean the discomfort itself isn’t real. I literally experience something uncomfortable in my mind, and I don’t currently understand where it comes from. That uncertainty is the issue I’m trying to communicate.

I also don’t think the main issue is necessarily locating some hidden subconscious belief or turning this into an abstract philosophical question about the “ is there something beyond consciousness for the fuck of it just meaningless abstract philosophy .” Make sure to get that right before projecting .

I’m willing to examine my beliefs and be honest with myself. But being honest with myself also means not forcing myself to conclude that I’m creating something when I genuinely don’t believe that I am. I can take responsibility for understanding what’s happening without taking responsibility for having deliberately created it.

I do experience discomfort without apparent cause in the surface of consciousness.