The Manosphere Isn't About Men. Or Women

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Below average looking women tend to reject below average looking men?

Of course.

It's very hard to develop the social skills with so much rejection. It requires superhuman self-belief.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course.

You're crazy

"According to recent research, approximately \(5.9\%\) of 40-year-old men have never been in a romantic relationship"

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It goes deeper than that though. Men with below average looks really struggle to be attractive to women. Women don't want to sleep with them. This makes them hate women.

The same goes for women with below-average looks.

Just read posts from these women on Reddit, the way men treat them is heartbreaking.

Most of them have never been approached by a man, have been harassed about their looks, or have never been seen as a romantic interest.

For some of them, men pretended to be romantically interested only to sleep with them and then block them or mock them with their friends.

The difference between men and women in these groups is a sense of entitlement. Men often feel entitled to women’s bodies, attention, and time because this is how they were socialized.

Misogyny is the deeper issue because it is deeply ingrained in the system.

Not only men with below-average looks hate women, men can be very good-looking, successful with women and still hate women.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The difference between men and women in these groups is a sense of entitlement. Men often feel entitled to women’s bodies, attention, and time because this is how they were socialized.

It's not merely that. Men have much higher sex drive than women.

Also, even unattractive women can get sex easily. It won't be a relationship with quality guy, but at least she can get sex.

The situation is not symmetrical.

But I know women have their own frustrations.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Raze]

19 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

The difference between men and women in these groups is a sense of entitlement. Men often feel entitled to women’s bodies, attention, and time because this is how they were socialized.

Based on what? Women are socialized to believe men are obligated to make the first move, pay for dates, protect and provide. You’ve even defended these positions before.

Thats also “entitlement” in the same way. You just validate womens standards and dismiss mens needs and desires because of bias.

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not merely that. Men have much higher sex drive than women.

Also, even unattractive women can get sex easily. It won't be a relationship with quality guy, but at least she can get sex.

The situation is not symmetrical.

But I know women have their own frustrations.

Women don’t value sex and physical attractiveness in men the same way men value them in women. Men often project onto women what they themselves desire, but women don’t necessarily prioritize those things.

Women tend to value romantic relationships more than sex.

Most men are medicore/bad at sex anyway, and it is also much riskier for women, so having sex doesn’t feel worth it for them as romantic relationships.

Society often places a high value on women’s looks, and women are judged harshly based on appearance. Since girlhood. 

For a woman who is considered below average-looking, this can be fatal regardless of her character.

Her chances of finding a man, even a below-average-looking man, who genuinely loves her and treats her like a human being are very low.

If it can be difficult for a conventionally attractive woman to find a genuinely loving partner, it is even harder for a woman who is not seen as conventionally attractive.

 

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Based on what? Women are socialized to believe men are obligated to make the first move, pay for dates, protect and provide. You’ve even defended these positions before.

Thats also “entitlement” in the same way. You just validate womens standards and dismiss mens needs and desires because of bias.

Women don’t feel entitled to men’s time, money, resources, or labor in the same way that men often feel entitled to women’s.

[Elliott]

2 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Women don’t feel entitled to men’s time, money, resources, or labor in the same way that men often feel entitled to women’s.

In general, I think it's pretty similar. Regardless, your point is important, and they're both patriarchal.

Edited 2 hours ago by Elliott

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Women don’t feel entitled to men’s time, money, resources, or labor in the same way that men often feel entitled to women’s.

If anything they feel more so.

I don’t see men bragging to each other about how much they can get their partner to spend on them for social signaling, like comparing ring sizes. 

I don’t see men popularizing “if he wanted to he would” and other trends all related to expectations in investments from men.

There are even viral videos women take of men not giving up their seat on the train for them, or of a wife holding bags while a husband is walking, and tens of thousands of women comment angry at the men for not giving the seats up to women or holding the bags for her.

This is a crowd of women saying men are obligated to pay for dates

 

If a man said women are obligated to chase him and pay for his time we’d all say it’s entitlement. You may see its different because it’s women, but then that’s just saying the entitlement is justified. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Raze

[Lila9]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

I don’t see men bragging to each other about how much they can get their partner to spend on them for social signaling, like comparing ring sizes. 

Women expecting financial support or protection from men in a society that judges unmarried women harshly, where women often have to work twice as hard for less pay, and where they are more vulnerable to gender-based violence and abuse, is reasonable under this opression.

On the other hand men brag about how many women they’ve slept with, how easily they were able to get them into bed, how they were able to manipulate them into sleeping with them and complaining about women not wanting to sleep with them, harrasing and raping women including underaged girls, watching porn of women being degraded and humilated is predatory and super entitled.

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

If it can be difficult for a conventionally attractive woman to find a genuinely loving partner, it is even harder for a woman who is not seen as conventionally attractive.

Yes, of course.

But if you can't get sex at all, relationships are a tertiary concern. Just the fact that women can focus on relationships vs sex is already a luxury. Because they aren't desperate for sex, because they can get it quite easily and take that for granted. It's hard for a woman to even understand what it feels like to be unable to ever get sex, for years and decades. That is not a woman's reality.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Women expecting financial support or protection from men in a society that judges unmarried women harshly, where women often have to work twice as hard for less pay, and where they are more vulnerable to gender-based violence and abuse, is reasonable under this opression.

On the other hand men brag about how many women they’ve slept with, how easily they were able to get them into bed, how they were able to manipulate them into sleeping with them and complaining about women not wanting to sleep with them, harrasing and raping women including underaged girls, watching porn of women being degraded and humilated is predatory and super entitled.

The pay gap is a myth, it is an earnings gap, not women being paid less for being women on a wide scale. Single women currently out earn single men in many cities and women are now more likely to graduate college. 

I don’t follow how gender based violence means women should expect men to pay for them. That doesn’t resolve that issue and may make it worse.

Society judges men harshly for not being sexually successful and men have to work harder to get sex despite desiring it much more. So again why is this standard not justified but womens standards are?

Bringing in rape and pedophilia is obviously irrelevant. I didn’t bring up women committing child abuse or sperm jacking because I recognize that isn’t representative.

Maybe making porn is predatory but watching it not really. How is watching porn entitled? Maybe if men were saying people were obligated to give them access to porn. You’re just using these words to attach to everything men do you don’t like. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Raze

[Elliott]

"Earnings Breakdown for Ages 25–34

Men: Median annual earnings are approximately $61,516 to $63,492 ($1,183–$1,221 weekly).

Women: Median annual earnings are approximately $53,976 to $54,860 ($1,038–$1,055 weekly)"

 

This is a substantial gap, especially in terms for paying for a coffee.

Edited 1 hour ago by Elliott

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

"Earnings Breakdown for Ages 25–34

Men: Median annual earnings are approximately $61,516 to $63,492 ($1,183–$1,221 weekly).

Women: Median annual earnings are approximately $53,976 to $54,860 ($1,038–$1,055 weekly)"

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/04/among-unmarried-adults-women-without-children-have-as-much-wealth-as-single-men/
 

[Elliott]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/04/among-unmarried-adults-women-without-children-have-as-much-wealth-as-single-men/
 

Are you looking at home equity?

 

From your link

"2022, the typical single man had $82,100 in wealth, compared with $58,100 for the typical single woman, according to U.S. Census Bureau data."

"On average, unmarried women tend to earn less than unmarried men. So how do unmarried women without children have similar wealth levels to unmarried men?

One big factor is age. Older household heads tend to have greater wealth than younger ones. And among heads of households, unmarried women without children are older, on average, than unmarried men."

Edited 1 hour ago by Elliott

[Lila9]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course.

But if you can't get sex at all, relationships are a tertiary concern. Just the fact that women can focus on relationships vs sex is already a luxury. Because they aren't desperate for sex, because they can get it quite easily and take that for granted. It's hard for a woman to even understand what it feels like to be unable to ever get sex, for years and decades. That is not a woman's reality.

Yes, but as I said, sex is not the same for a woman as it is for a man.
For men, sex is proof of their desirability and manhood.
For women, romantic relationships and being “picked” for marriage are proof of desirability and womanhood.

Below-average-looking men have higher chances of getting sex and a loving romantic relationship if their character and social skills are good.

Below-average-looking women may have more chances to get sex, but it is more likely to be degrading and humiliating (this is well portrayed in the show Girls in the way Adam treats Hannah. There are explicit sexual scenes, and it is based on the writer’s life experience), while their chances of having a loving romantic relationship are very low regardless of their social skills or character.

[Elliott]

@Raze also consider single male lifestyle vs single female, a lot of single men just live in their parents basement and just play video games. Most similar women just shack up with a guy, while professional women struggle to find a decent man.

 

The Logic

https://thelogic.co

Senior women in accounting make 30% less than men

Mar 27, 2026 — Senior women in accounting make 30% less than men. The gender pay gap is wider for more experienced women in Canada. In the accounting

 

Financial Samurai

https://www.financialsamurai.com

Median Income By Age And Sex In America

The median income for 20-24-year-olds is $25,116 for women and $27,040 for men. The median income for 25-34-year-olds is $35,620 for women and $40,560 for

Edited 1 hour ago by Elliott

[Lila9]

20 minutes ago, Raze said:

The pay gap is a myth, it is an earnings gap, not women being paid less for being women on a wide scale. Single women currently out earn single men in many cities and women are now more likely to graduate college. 

I don’t follow how gender based violence means women should expect men to pay for them. That doesn’t resolve that issue and may make it worse.

Society judges men harshly for not being sexually successful and men have to work harder to get sex despite desiring it much more. So again why is this standard not justified but womens standards are?

Bringing in rape and pedophilia is obviously irrelevant. I didn’t bring up women committing child abuse or sperm jacking because I recognize that isn’t representative.

Maybe making porn is predatory but watching it not really. How is watching porn entitled? Maybe if men were saying people were obligated to give them access to porn. You’re just using these words to attach to everything men do you don’t like. 

Still women do unpaid domestic labor and childcare.

Those things take a lot of time from women and are undervalued and underpaid.
Women do their paid work and then go home and do the unpaid work.

Society judges men for not being providers, and being sexually successful is tied to patriarchal expectations of men, which most men support and uphold.

You want a system in which you have control over women’s bodies and power, but you don’t want to work for it or be accountable. You want it to be given to you on a plate and never be punished for your behavior. 

And yes watching porn is predatory. You watch women in a vulnerable position in life, who are there because of systemic oppression of women, and get pleasure from it without consequences.

[Elliott]

@Raze

But, let's ask @Lila9 a question because I think you two are actually on the same page and slightly misunderstanding each other.

@Lila9 should the modern woman be partly responsible for providing for the family, or is it all on the man?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

should the modern woman be partly responsible for providing for the family,

Any sane woman will agree with that.