A Critical Perspective on Psychedelic Use

[Oppositionless]

@Oeaohoo A .1% increase in baseline consciousness could be the difference between depression on the brink of suicide and genuine peace, a sense of purpose, and a heart full of gratitude. 
 

I'm less than 1% higher in my baseline from when I was at my lowest. But I live in a different reality.

If you're more interested in the truth angle than the liberation angle, then there's plenty of that too.

Edited yesterday at 10:38 PM by Oppositionless

[LambdaDelta]

3 hours ago, Eskilon said:

substances, however powerful does not bring ultimate liberation and could be only a glimpse. Either way not saying its the case, but its worth considering since he is fully imersed in spiritual work 24/7 while we are westerners who apparently cant even sit cross-legged.

We're in agreement there. But peaks are unsustainable regardless of the methods they were achieved through; if you don't think that's the case you don't know what serious peaks are. Equivalently, increasing baseline is possible through all sorts of ways. I've done so many psychedelics that it permanently altered my perception and brain chemistry. There is of course the danger of catching HPPD and the like, but that's by no means an exclusive risk; people have even induced schizophrenia on themselves by repeatedly chanting the names of Allah. In a week it will be 5 months since my last trip, it's only now I'm starting to feel the need for the next one gradually coming on — higher frequency than 3-4 per year would actually diminish the scope, at the current stage anyway. Otherwise all I've been doing as far as psychoactives go is amphetamines to counteract ADHD and an occasional Z to get vivid dreams, the rest is simply incessant contemplation + observation + learning, and a couple other miscellaneous practices. This yields a pretty consistent and profound consciousness of God if I say so myself (not to be confused with God-consciousness, whole different ballgame). I don't even meditate or do anything of the sort as it just makes me delirious. Consider that it is instead possible to reach No-Self and Stillness through sitting on a moving train surrounded by people and deconstructing the concept of motion entirely in your mind, similar to how Einstein conducted his thought experiments. Sitting cross-legged and so on are only tangentially related abilities, for every such feat I could list an intellectual one that is no less pertinent but still nowhere near anything decisive. As much as I ignore the body, these guys and Buddhists might be ignoring the mind even more.
All this may seem inapplicable to the average person, but really not a whole lot more so than what these yogis and other hardcore mystics do.
Ultimate liberation while still trapped in a human body is itself, ironically, an illusion of the mind.

 

3 hours ago, Eskilon said:

it could also be said that, if one's understanding does not bring liberation, bliss, or ending suffering, then one's understanding might not be complete, it might not be ultimate and in fact incomplete. One might actually be asleep and not totally awakened.

I'll rephrase, it of course does bring all that to a certain extent. Actual paradise/Nirvana on the peaks, stable unperturbedness and happiness at baseline. That's really about the bare minimum you could shoot for, and the highest bliss is achieved through the deepest understanding. It becomes complete and total once you integrate incompleteness, which is easier said than done at advanced degrees, but can at least be made peace with as a start. 
Suffering, for instance, is crucial across various traditions. One can suffer consciously or unconsciously, and I'd argue that naively pursuing ending suffering ASAP falls under the latter. 

 

3 hours ago, Eskilon said:

I would choose liberation over understanding any day of the week.

Then you'll get neither 😛 ; the reasons are exhaustively explicated in Why Truth is the Highest Value and elsewhere. Understanding is its own reason and reward, same way Goodness is — because the two are identical. 

 

3 hours ago, Eskilon said:

You understand reality, and then what?? More games? Won't you get bored of it?

Not if you fall in love with the game and harness God's creativity to make your life infinitely fun. But if I do somehow get hopelessly bored of it, I'll peace out of here, remain as undifferentiated Love for a while, then incarnate into some other form after the omnipotence gets too stale and forget all about it. This is not a cycle you can ontologically escape, but you can certainly trick yourself into thinking you did almost indefinitely. Samsara = Nirvana. 

 

3 hours ago, Eskilon said:

A total thing is a total thing, these things must be understood otherwise is just higher forms of games.

That's right, what else is this all about. Seems strange to contrast bliss & cessation of suffering with games like that. Does your videogame character suffer when he takes damage, or feel bliss after completing a difficult mission? It's an endless chain of proxies and puppets, very much total yet still only a single frame. 

Edited 23 hours ago by LambdaDelta

[Carl-Richard]

23 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Liberation, bliss, ending suffering, and so on bear little to no relevance to understanding of reality, which has always been the explicit priority here. They're like a cute extra perk you may get along the way. 

That's retarded and backway. A surfer who never falls vs a rock climber who falls off the highest mountain in the world. What is more impressive? What immense dialed-in-ness do you need to never fall?

A peak-chaser who is not stuck in liberation is drowning 99.999% of their life in deception of ignorance, and the peak is only but a faint memory that never brings justice to the experience. While the liberated is the experience always and forever.

Liberation is in its own league of radical. To get your finite existence nuked and replaced by a puppet show where you channel the ultimate will of God, it's unfathomable even for people who have allegedly awakened.

[Oeaohoo]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

A peak-chaser who is not stuck in liberation is drowning 99.999% of their life in deception of ignorance, and the peak is only but a faint memory that never brings justice to the experience. While the liberated is the experience always and forever.

It’s not even an experience!

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Liberation is in its own league of radical. To get your finite existence nuked and replaced by a puppet show where you channel the ultimate will of God, it's unfathomable even for people who have allegedly awakened.

[Eskilon]

1 hour ago, LambdaDelta said:

Ultimate liberation while still trapped in a human body is itself, ironically, an illusion of the mind.

Well, it makes sense what you are saying.

But it also makes one question why anyone ever preached ultimate liberation while still in a human body. Were they self-deceived and it is a fantasy? Maybe, maybe not.

1 hour ago, LambdaDelta said:

Suffering, for instance, is crucial across various traditions. One can suffer consciously or unconsciously, and I'd argue that naively pursuing ending suffering ASAP falls under the latter.

Suffering is crucial, I agree. But it is only a device. It makes one learn and self-correct. But I would say it is more like an airplane. You go into an airplane to go somewhere else, you don't stay there, staying there was never the point. It is a means, not an end. Whether it can be transcended completely or not I dont know, but it makes sense on why one would pursue that all things considered.

 

1 hour ago, LambdaDelta said:

Then you'll get neither 😛 ; the reasons are exhaustively explicated in Why Truth is the Highest Value and elsewhere. Understanding is its own reason and reward, same way Goodness is — because the two are identical. 

Actually no, I somewhat disagree with the framing of " Truth is the Highest Value".

I think the ultimate question of a seeker is not that of God or Truth. It is that of Death. That's the closest and the most certain thing you have. Why would you care about God if all there is, is just living and dying at the end and theres nothing more??? It's stupid to inquiry about God if you yourself dont know if theres anything that will persist at the end, if Death is really the end why care about God? If you just live, fuck, eat, achieve something or whatever and then die and its the end and nothing persists, why bother at all?? Might as well die right now, because its all pointless if there is not something that cannot be destroyed at the end. Anything in life is ultimately unsatisfactory, because things dont last, nothing last, all momentary, bound by time. Buddha was inquiring if theres anything that actually fulfills. Something beyond time and that cannot be destroyed, even if Death comes.

And Caring about Truth is also problematic. Because it is a concept you have picked up from culture, specifically from philosophy. Caring about truth runs the risk of intellectualizing, getting lost in mind and thus never trascending. That`s why so few philosophers were actually awakened, lost in concepts, thinking that you will figure out if just think some more. Death is way more existential  than God and Truth from a human perspective. It`s viceral, certain, the ONLY certainty in fact, beyond concepts. Spirituality is a inquiry about Death.

You could say "But Death is Truth" yeah, you might say that now, but not when you didnt know.

Edited 22 hours ago by Eskilon

[Oppositionless]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Liberation is in its own league of radical. To get your finite existence nuked and replaced by a puppet show where you channel the ultimate will of God, it's unfathomable even for people who have allegedly awakened.

I agree but that might give the wrong impression. It's always a free choice, God's will is never forced upon someone. You can cultivate the type of attitude with practice that channeling God's will is a joy. 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's retarded and backway. A surfer who never falls vs a rock climber who falls off the highest mountain in the world. What is more impressive? What immense dialed-in-ness do you need to never fall?

 

Well I would say the surfer is impressive for his mastery, the climber is impressive for his bravery, especially if he tries again given the fall (assuming the analogy doesn't break down bc he dies). In another thread I said I see meditation as good because it takes discipline, psychecelics are good because they take courage.

Edited 18 hours ago by Oppositionless

[Oppositionless]

4 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

It’s not even an experience!

Indeed. But it's precipitated by experience. Not an experience but a lifetime of experience. Surrender, courage, discipline, compassion. Any spiritual path or technique is ultimately a footnote to Truth or Life. What are you embodying while undertaking these practices?

Edited 18 hours ago by Oppositionless

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Actually no, I somewhat disagree with the framing of " Truth is the Highest Value".

The insistence on "truth" is very probably the intellect in disguise, co-opting the truth as usual. What I've been seeking has always registered to me as simply the "highest/best thing/feeling/sensation/existence", not any specific quality like "truth" (more than any other quality).

Edited 18 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[LambdaDelta]

10 hours ago, Eskilon said:

But it also makes one question why anyone ever preached ultimate liberation while still in a human body. Were they self-deceived and it is a fantasy? Maybe, maybe not.

These are not mutually exclusive. They may preach it from a level where they can take a Mahasamadhi anytime they feel like it, but ultimate liberation is not a lived daily experience, by choice. Which then makes you wonder why would they hang around at this dirty limited place full of suffering; perhaps there's something more important than peace and bliss. 

 

11 hours ago, Eskilon said:

You go into an airplane to go somewhere else, you don't stay there, staying there was never the point.

'Somewhere else' is a distinction. Primitive nonduality can easily be turned around on itself like that. Nirvana can be had here and now, as per Buddha.

 

11 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Death. That's the closest and the most certain thing you have.

As if. Death is as much in your direct experience as Jupiter. What, it's certain because everyone who ever lived died, you see people in Iran die, your pets and your parents? Weak. 

 

In your current direct experience you exist, else you wouldn't be talking to me. Existence is the only foundation you get and the only one you need, death is more fantasy.
But I'm not telling you what to pursue, since in your current incarnation you're so focused on liberation and ending suffering, transcending death is probably right for you. Then perhaps after a Nayuta more karmic cycles you'll move on to cooler things.
Believe it or not, I never cared much about survival and death, and that's not only because of the very favorable material conditions. In fact someone with such a spoiled childhood should by all accounts have turned out completely dysfunctional and helpless after it was all stripped away. But I constantly go around putting myself in dangerous, challenging, and painful situations, as it naturally feels like a game. There's still stakes, death can get me from behind at any time, but that's what makes it fun.
Don't assume all spiritual paths are equal, they're only equal by virtue of their ultimate trajectory. And there's way higher paths than mine, such as selfless service to reality (as in the real deal like Jesus, not the nonsense they teach at Vipassana retreats) and beyond. 

 

11 hours ago, Eskilon said:

And Caring about Truth is also problematic. Because it is a concept you have picked up from culture, specifically from philosophy.

In a way that's true. All absolutes can be relativized and reduced (an inalienable function of Authority), which can either be done from a place of ignorance or through a process of attempting to verify them via deconstruction; done correctly any deconstruction only reinforces them, that's why they're absolutes. The most intense is not Truth or Love, it's Sanctity. Verbose as I am, I have no words for it, while I could talk about the others all day long. It's infinitely more visceral than death or any emotion. And yet, Sanctity is a quality of Truth all the same, as Love and the rest. They're not even qualities per se, they literally are it. The more facets you awaken to the more you realize that God is an infinite self-luminous fractal of absolute Truth; all the additional aspects are revealed to be gems in this Indra's Net. 

[LambdaDelta]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's retarded and backway. A surfer who never falls vs a rock climber who falls off the highest mountain in the world. What is more impressive? What immense dialed-in-ness do you need to never fall?

My my, shouldn't mods have higher standards for language they use? At least keep it to reductionistic terminology like I do. 
If you literally never fall, that means you're always surfing the same wave, which could be some puny 2-3m thing that's not impressive in the slightest. After you fall from a peak you can go try again, or summit a different one. Or even go surf and sunbathe for a while, nothing wrong with that. 

 

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

To get your finite existence nuked and replaced by a puppet show where you channel the ultimate will of God

That's what proper understanding gets you and then some. Part of proper understanding is seeing the possibilities of further development and working to actualize it. I already got the puppet show on a permanent basis, now comes the trickier part of purging my corrupt will to free up the bandwidth for God's. 

[Carl-Richard]

13 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

If you literally never fall, that means you're always surfing the same wave, which could be some puny 2-3m thing that's not impressive in the slightest.

Surfing unlimited identity is not some puny thing.

 

19 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

After you fall from a peak you can go try again, or summit a different one. Or even go surf and sunbathe for a while, nothing wrong with that.

After you fall from the peak, you're in the toilet compared to surfing the unlimited, unless you're on the very brink (which 0.000004% of people are).

[LambdaDelta]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Surfing unlimited identity is not some puny thing.

Is that what you're doing? If so, congratulations. But most likely it's only unlimited because the mind you dismiss has mysteriously compressed it into a unity without you noticing. If it was actually numerically unlimited for more than a couple hours you'd end up with schizophrenia or DID. 

 

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

which 0.000004% of people are

Curious where such precise statistics come from. Well, it is rare indeed, but the toilet stage can be transcended such that the falls turn into very smooth landings. 

[UnbornTao]

Still waiting for the recording of Leo turning into an alien on camera.

[Eskilon]

5 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

In your current direct experience you exist, else you wouldn't be talking to me. Existence is the only foundation you get and the only one you need, death is more fantasy.

Doesnt mean shit that I exist, it could be destroyed, by Death. I get what you are coming from, that Death might be a concept, and thats true skepticism, but its not so simple like you are saying here. 

You can come at me like, "Well existence must exist because thats its function, non-existence by definition doesnt exist, so you(whatever that is) will continue to exist and Death is false, dont bother". And that makes a whole lot of sense, intelectually. You cant handwave death and prioritize the fact that you exist and thats enough.

Being dissatisfied with desire, things not lasting, and Death always at the Door is perhaps the most logical thing as to why a human would pursue spirituality.

Edited 4 hours ago by Eskilon

[LambdaDelta]

12 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

You cant handwave death and prioritize the fact that you exist and thats enough.

Being dissatisfied with desire, things not lasting, and Death always at the Door is perhaps the most logical thing as to why a human would pursue spirituality.

It's not a handwaving, every time I leave the house I know perfectly well I might die in some accident, or simpler still a brain aneurysm I don't know about could suddenly rupture and kill me on the spot or render me a vegetable wherever I am. 

It may be the most logical emotionally, but there's higher order logic. Your trouble is identifying with the human you too much, which can indeed be destroyed by Death easier than brushing off a speck of dust. Such conventions don't apply to your actual Identity though. Then there's the whole angle of suicide to consider, but that's unnecessary radical for now. 

Enjoyable as it was, gonna have to shorten all further posts for time purposes, since it's a universal pattern that people ignore 90% of it anyway.

[Eskilon]

19 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

It's not a handwaving, every time I leave the house I know perfectly well I might die in some accident, or simpler still a brain aneurysm I don't know about could suddenly rupture and kill me on the spot or render me a vegetable wherever I am.

And that's precisely the point. The house is burning, Death is next moment. The fool thinks Death is far away, but is always next moment. If this doesnt compel one to seek and notice the urgency of it, then I dont know what will.

People at large doesnt comtemplate Death, they are too casual about it, and thats why most are not wise people.

 

19 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

Your trouble is identifying with the human you too much, which can indeed be destroyed by Death easier than brushing off a speck of dust. Such conventions don't apply to your actual Identity though. Then there's the whole angle of suicide to consider, but that's unnecessary radical for now. 

Believe it or not, I dont, otherwise I wouldnt have found actualized.org. But language is limited, I have to express the larger point somehow.

And I did consider suicide, its foolish for a variety of reasons.

19 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

Enjoyable as it was, gonna have to shorten all further posts for time purposes, since it's a universal pattern that people ignore 90% of it anyway.

No problem, its was enjoyable indeed.

Edited 3 hours ago by Eskilon

[LambdaDelta]

8 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

otherwise I wouldnt have found actualized.org

That alone isn't enough of an indicator, you may notice there's plenty of people even on this forum stuck on dating, success, etc.; as in, their posts are almost entirely about that without ever touching spirituality. The body of work is that extensive. 

8 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

And I did consider suicide, its foolish for a variety of reasons.

Good 😘

Edited 3 hours ago by LambdaDelta

[LambdaDelta]

18 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

People at large doesnt comtemplate Death, they are too casual about it, and thats why most are not wise people

 

 

[Oppositionless]

@Eskilon That was a really nice video.

Title was kinda click baitey lol. For those who didn't watch it, Dakota gave 5 meo to three different Sadhus. Two of them had profound experiences. So the ratio isn't 100% non-response but 33%.

The guy who didn't get much from it, you can just look into that guy's eyes and see the realization. And after talking to him Dakota says something really deep: "There's a difference between experiencing something profound and becoming someone profound."

When people don't respond to psychedelics, I'm mindful of the genetic component, but  looking into that Sadhu's eyes I'm convinced it's more than genetic for him. Dude is simply There.

Becoming someone profound isn't flashy, often isn't fun, and isn't easy, but it's the core of spirituality. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Oppositionless

[Eskilon]

2 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

2 hours ago, Eskilon said:

People at large doesnt comtemplate Death, they are too casual about it, and thats why most are not wise people

 

lmao, too true.