A few thoughts on your metaphysical claims, Leo

[Ishanga]

The best thing to do is just share, don't proclaim!  To say "This is absolutely the way it is, the Truth of Reality or God" is a proclamation, you can do it but then it becomes a belief system or story to hear for other that read or hear the proclamation. 

If You say "This is how I experience and understand Truth and Reality" at this moment, that is fine, it is what it is, others reading it may be inspired by it and want to have it too, no problem..

Live by Example, if One is really intouch with Truth and Reality, it will reflect in their actions and behavior!  Teach and share methods for others to get there too if You like or just dwell in the experience of it for the rest of Your life that is Your choice!! 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

If You say "This is how I experience and understand Truth and Reality" at this moment,

That is not the truth though. That is a human game.

The truth is INFINITY. Period.

Edited 12 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Leo Gura Hey, on a slightly similar topic, I’ve noticed that I get stuck in my contemplations sometimes, so I’m asking this to better understand how to deconstruct the "ego defense" I’m experiencing.

What I’m struggling with is that even after intense mental skull-fucking  work, I still can’t fully accept the idea that "I am God" or that the mind is limitless. For example, if I try to imagine subtle changes in my body, like my eyes becoming more brown, my nails growing a little longer, or healing pain or illness, it doesn't seem to work.

I focus on these small things because I’ve noticed I get scared of changing, especially because I see how attached my ego is to my body and identity. But even when I try to make these minor changes that wouldn't pose a threat to the fixed idea of human identity, they still don’t manifest.

It’s tricky to understand why, if someone can become fully awakened or omniscient, they still can’t intentionally influence reality or consciousness, even as an experiment. You mentioned something extreme in one of your episodes, like turning your hand into an eldritch Cthulu tentacle🐙, but that’s not even necessary. What about simply changing something small? I’d love to see a thread here, even where people share their experiences of going on trips, reaching God-realizations, and making small, scientifically verifiable changes that couldn't naturally occur.

I realize that whenever I return from God-realizations (intense trips), my ego grabs onto these arguments as a defense mechanism, blocking me from fully integrating the experience. So, I’m wondering how you navigated this and got past it.

Do you mostly think: "Oh, it's the case that even though I am God and that is the absolute truth, the reason I can’t do these things is because I’m still attached to a human mind that can't perform these actions? And in order to do so, I’d be risking death or detachment from my self, which is why it’s not so easy? I am God, so I choose not to do it. It's not that I cannot."

But to that, I’d argue it still doesn’t make sense, because by definition, God is God. Once you realize that you are, you should be able to do it, purely for the fun and curiosity of it, especially if it isn't human-identity threatening... It’s confusing.

Thank you so much!

[Ishanga]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That is not the truth though. That is a human game.

The truth is INFINITY. Period.

Your Human as I am, a Human interpreting  Truth/Reality, it is just that Human for many means less than... Human for means Unlimited Potential and Possibility within.. We are Human BEINGS, the Being part is about exploring Potentials/Possibility, the Human part is survival, procreation, exploring, doing, having, giving Absolute a chance to know itself, BEING is Absolute in Human Form!

[Monster Energy]

[Leo Gura]

It is perfect without the buts and Leos.

Edited 11 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

It’s tricky to understand why, if someone can become fully awakened or omniscient, they still can’t intentionally influence reality or consciousness, even as an experiment

It's very simple, you are not god in the sense that is not a creator or a center.  If it were, it would be limited. It's so obvious that seem weird that people don't see it. The main difficulty in spirituality is dissolving the center, then people take psychedelic and expand their ego. God as creator is ego expansion. 

You are "God" in the sense that you are the unlimited appearing as a form, but the unlimited doesn't "wants". Contemplate it , it's absolutely simple and obvious. If the absolute wants, it would be relative. The absolute is total, and you, the human, are a possibility that appears because the coherence with the totality of the form . 

Seems a small difference, but it's the difference between the chain and the freedom 

Edited 11 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's very simple, you are not god in the sense that is not a creator or a center.  If it were, it would be limited. It's so obvious that seem weird that people don't see it. The main difficulty in spirituality is dissolving the center, then people take psychedelic and expand their ego. God as creator is ego expansion. 

You are "God" in the sense that you are the unlimited appearing as a form, but the unlimited doesn't "wants". Contemplate it , it's absolutely simple and obvious. If the absolute wants, it would be relative. The absolute is total, and you, the human, are a possibility that appears because the coherence with the totality of the form . 

Seems a small difference, but it's the difference between the chain and the freedom 

Yes, we did not create this planet or the galaxy or the universe and all that is in it, but we are the center of it Experientially, as You and I and Everyone have never Experienced anything outside of Ourselves, but ourselves can be Expanded, we can Expand enough to include the Entire Universe, as well we are micro universes in a way (drop of the Ocean), everything that is history is within Us, our DNA alone carries so much memory we cannot fathom it, and we can access it all, control our genes, change our molecular structure to become totally changed and transformed tomorrow, that Potential is within Us, few access it and believe it is not possible, but it is!!

[Leo Gura]

There are many aspects to understanding God which ARE conceptual, and those can easily turn out mistaken.

What cannot be mistaken is Infinity/God itself/Absolute Truth/Consciousness/Love/Self/Unity.

Do not get the wrong idea that all my claims about God are Absolute. Only some are.

Edited 11 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

we can access it all, control our genes, change our molecular structure to become totally changed and transformed tomorrow,

Sure, what we are is an energetic pattern developing and constantly changing, and that change can take different directions. But if we're talking about enlightenment, the point is to dilute the density enough to realize our essential nature. This nature is total openness, and to open yourself to it, we have to be free of any identification. The slightest thing closes you off. Opening yourself to the totality for a moment allows a progressive restructuring of our structure, which little by little becomes more transparent.

The problem is that if you get stuck in a trap like identifying with being consciousness or whatever, it happens like a river dam. There's an expansion, but of your ego.

[Monster Energy]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is perfect without the buts and Leos.

Easy there, Buddha boy. Even God smirks.

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Monster Energy

[Xonas Pitfall]

31 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's very simple, you are not god in the sense that is not a creator or a center.  If it were, it would be limited. It's so obvious that seem weird that people don't see it. The main difficulty in spirituality is dissolving the center, then people take psychedelic and expand their ego. God as creator is ego expansion. 

You are "God" in the sense that you are the unlimited appearing as a form, but the unlimited doesn't "wants". Contemplate it , it's absolutely simple and obvious. If the absolute wants, it would be relative. The absolute is total, and you, the human, are a possibility that appears because the coherence with the totality of the form . 

Seems a small difference, but it's the difference between the chain and the freedom 

Hmm... but couldn’t you make the same argument that if God isn’t able to create from any point within its "center," then it would be limited? That He would be limited by His inability to create infinitely from finitude? It’s tricky when dealing with infinity. That’s why, in my question above, I asked about making small changes in the human body after becoming God-realized, being aware of the chain of change needed to cause even a small adjustment to ourselves. This would prove that God-realization and consciousness can directly affect the body and reality, especially in a more scientific manner.

By the way, to clarify, I'm not trying to argue with you. To be completely clear, I'm just trying to understand it myself since I seem to have some comprehension issues here.

Edited 11 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Ishanga]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sure, what we are is an energetic pattern developing and constantly changing, and that change can take different directions. But if we're talking about enlightenment, the point is to dilute the density enough to realize our essential nature. This nature is total openness, and to open yourself to it, we have to be free of any identification. The slightest thing closes you off. Opening yourself to the totality for a moment allows a progressive restructuring of our structure, which little by little becomes more transparent.

The problem is that if you get stuck in a trap like identifying with being consciousness or whatever, it happens like a river dam. There's an expansion, but of your ego.

Yes, we cling to grander experiences for sure, we have the "I am God" experience and then want to recreate it again and again, this is the problem with psychedelics imo, if one is not prepared enough they go and use these things, have the Grand Experience then cling to it and want it again and again because sober life and experience is not enough for them anymore, but they have no foundation built, their on the latter and falling off of it again and again, its better to use a set of stairs, become Peaceful of Your own nature first, then set that unbreakable foundation and go for more then...

[Breakingthewall]

17 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

but couldn’t you make the same argument that if God isn’t able to create from any point within its "center," then it would be limited?

The point is that being unlimited means having no center or boundaries. This means that any will or intelligence is something that emerges in the Absolute, not the Absolute itself. Seems unimportant but it's essential. 

Your question is: if the unlimited cannot desire, would that be a limit? The answer is that any desire is local, not absolute. A desire is limited by definition. 

If you want to create a mental framework that makes openness to the Absolute possible, you have to understand that the Absolute cannot have any quality except being unlimited. The moment you say, "The Absolute creates reality out of love," you have introduced limits in every direction. The formulation that doesn't limit would be: Form arises as an inevitable expression of the Absolute because there is nothing to limit it. And any will is a form.

[Ishanga]

15 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The point is that being unlimited means having no center or boundaries. This means that any will or intelligence is something that emerges in the Absolute, not the Absolute itself. Seems unimportant but it's essential. 

Your question is: if the unlimited cannot desire, would that be a limit? The answer is that any desire is local, not absolute. A desire is limited by definition. 

If you want to create a mental framework that makes openness to the Absolute possible, you have to understand that the Absolute cannot have any quality except being unlimited. The moment you say, "The Absolute creates reality out of love," you have introduced limits in every direction. The formulation that doesn't limit would be: Form arises as an inevitable expression of the Absolute because there is nothing to limit it. And any will is a form.

So True!  The labelling of "Absolute is This" is a misnomer, Absolute means ALL, Love, Hate, Anger, Joy, all of this is available, but Humans can choose, that is why we are Unlimited in a Sense, obviously we are Limited Physically and Mentally, but not Experientially, we are unlimited, in my Dream Experience I have flown like Superman, fought like Bruce Lee, and have been rich and powerful and enlightened lol!

So Humans have the most capability Experientially, we can be intouch with Absolute Experientially and make it our base Experience, that is BEINGNESS, from that we live this game called life, not the other way around where we come from Lack and want to be Complete, no first we Experience Completeness then go out and Do and Want and Have!!

There are forces out there that don't want Us to feel Complete or unLacking, they want us to feel hopeless and full of Lack so that they can profit off of It, that is a huge problem in our cultures and society as a whole!

Edited 10 hours ago by Ishanga

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There are many aspects to understanding God which ARE conceptual, and those can easily turn out mistaken.

What cannot be mistaken is Infinity/God itself/Absolute Truth/Consciousness/Love/Self/Unity.

Do not get the wrong idea that all my claims about God are Absolute. Only some are.

Hmm...

It's a tricky thread to walk. At least, I'd be concerned about it if I really wanted to be sure of the truth.

You don’t want to get too attached to any singular worldview, unity, or experience, whether it’s about consciousness or something else, and then neglect arguments that might change your perspective, or deny them altogether. Something like "Hitler is never wrong" and only amplifies the ideas that fit their beliefs while dismissing everything else.

Quote

There are many aspects to understanding Hitler that are conceptual, and these can easily turn out to be mistaken.

What cannot be mistaken is that 'Hitler always has our best interests at heart!'

Do not get the wrong idea that all my claims about Hitler are absolute. Only some are.

In reality, for something to be true, all of its elements must align in a way that holds up across different arguments. And to clarify, this doesn’t mean 'Oh well, if you can't list every species in the world, that means biodiversity doesn't exist. Ha, gotcha!' It just means you don’t want contradictory statements in your system.

Quote

'I am God-realized. Once I'm in a God-realized state, I am God.'

'Okay, can you influence reality with your will? Even the slightest physical change?'

'Well... Oops!' 

You know this already, though, haha, but that statement of yours concerned me and reminded me of it.

Also, apologies in advance if I'm saying something really stupidly naive or off-track; I'm just trying to contemplate it myself through debate. Thank you!

Edited 10 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Xonas Pitfall]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The point is that being unlimited means having no center or boundaries. This means that any will or intelligence is something that emerges in the Absolute, not the Absolute itself. Seems unimportant but it's essential. 

Your question is: if the unlimited cannot desire, would that be a limit? The answer is that any desire is local, not absolute. A desire is limited by definition. 

If you want to create a mental framework that makes openness to the Absolute possible, you have to understand that the Absolute cannot have any quality except being unlimited. The moment you say, "The Absolute creates reality out of love," you have introduced limits in every direction. The formulation that doesn't limit would be: Form arises as an inevitable expression of the Absolute because there is nothing to limit it. And any will is a form.

It would make sense that there’s a point between God-realization/higher consciousness and the human ego, where your ability to influence reality would be heightened.

It’s kind of like saying, well, the moment you are God-realized, it means you're dead! You didn’t have complete God-realization since your heart didn’t stop beating and your lungs were still working. If your body didn’t collapse, that means you weren't fully God-realized. That’s truly how it goes. But we know from this forum that there are many gradients of realization, where you can still have your "ego-will" intact and experience higher states of consciousness. So my question is, why don’t we see people being able to make even small physical tweaks to the exterior or to themselves?

I’d say it’d be foolish to think it immediately purges them of all desire to do anything in physical reality. Not sure.

I understand that in a total state, you'd be ripped out of all desire because you'd see everything as it is, perfect, whole, God, itself/yourself. But this is a very black-and-white way of thinking, since when we have different states of consciousness, there are plenty of in-between states where my suggestion could happen. So I was curious if anyone has experienced it or if there’s a fundamental flaw in my thinking.

[Ishanga]

5 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

It would make sense that there’s a point between God-realization/higher consciousness and the human ego, where your ability to influence reality would be heightened.

It’s kind of like saying, well, the moment you are God-realized, it means you're dead! You didn’t have complete God-realization since your heart didn’t stop beating and your lungs were still working. If your body didn’t collapse, that means you weren't fully God-realized. That’s truly how it goes. But we know from this forum that there are many gradients of realization, where you can still have your "ego-will" intact and experience higher states of consciousness. So my question is, why don’t we see people being able to make even small physical tweaks to the exterior or to themselves?

I’d say it’d be foolish to think it immediately purges them of all desire to do anything in physical reality. Not sure.

I understand that in a total state, you'd be ripped out of all desire because you'd see everything as it is, perfect, whole, God, itself/yourself. But this is a very black-and-white way of thinking, since when we have different states of consciousness, there are plenty of in-between states where my suggestion could happen. So I was curious if anyone has experienced it or if there’s a fundamental flaw in my thinking.

They say the moment of Enlightenment and the moment of physical death is the same moment, most cannot keep within the Body when Enlightenment happens since the energy surge and nervous system and others things are too intense for the connection between Body and Atman for lack of a better word to stay on. Only qualified Masters, masters of Energy and Karma can stay on, they conscious create more Karma to keep intact the various Bodies and Atman!

Karmic substance keeps us glued to our Bodies and such (5 bodies, food, mental, energy, astral, bliss body) karma keeps it together, when Enlightenment happens Karma is dissolved, Atman is released from these Bodies and merges with Absolute, no more individualization is present, no more birth/death/rebirth samsara cycle happens, liberation is complete!

Edited 10 hours ago by Ishanga

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Ishanga Yes, that was my point! If we only considered the ultimate enlightenment to be the one that happens at the moment of death, we wouldn't value anything that enlightened masters or Leo say. You could just argue, 'See! They’re still limited by their desires and will to live. There is still ego. Why didn't they die?' But yet, we do accept it to some extent because we realize there’s fruitful value in their realizations. You don’t have to actually die for your realizations to be considered valid.

My point is similar when it comes to the ability to exert influence over reality in higher states of consciousness. It doesn’t mean you suddenly reach full enlightenment and have all your desires stripped away. You still clearly have the desire to live and maintain this human body to embody your realizations. So I’m curious, why don’t we see that ability to influence reality more often (even to some extent) in people who claim to be in the heightened states?

[Ishanga]

2 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

@Ishanga Yes, that was my point! If we only considered the ultimate enlightenment to be the one that happens at the moment of death, we wouldn't value anything that enlightened masters or Leo say. You could just argue, 'See! They’re still limited by their desires and will to live. There is still ego. Why didn't they die?' But yet, we do accept it to some extent because we realize there’s fruitful value in their realizations. You don’t have to actually die for your realizations to be considered valid.

My point is similar when it comes to the ability to exert influence over reality in higher states of consciousness. It doesn’t mean you suddenly reach full enlightenment and have all your desires stripped away. You still clearly have the desire to live and maintain this human body to embody your realizations. So I’m curious, why don’t we see that ability to influence reality more often (even to some extent) in people who claim to be in the heightened states?

Cool!
Yes the "Why are we here" question pops up, this propels us to reach our highest Potentials I think.. Desire is there to do this as well, but via Unconsciousness of Truth/Reality we use this desiring process to accumulate more things physically/materially, or emotionally via relationships, love/partner finding, gambling, sex, drugs and all that... The whole point is that Humans want to be more than what they are right now, this makes us want to live up to our true Potential, which is being intouch with Absolute and eventually dissolving completely back into It..

On the way up we do gain siddhis, powers per say, material manipulation, telekinesis, clairvoyance, all of it, but if we identify with it at any point, cling to it at any point we lose it, so its a game of sorts I think, first You go beyond basic survival, accumulation of ppl, places and things and procreation stuff, you get to a point of presence with Life and this Moment where Life is centered, then other challenges per say arise, now I can see reality as it is, ppl as they truly are, read their minds, it is fun, but don't stay with it, going beyond it is what is needed, that is why a time and tested path is needed as well as Guru's of sorts, so we don't fall into the traps and limitations along the way!