I`m Confused WIth Free Will

[Someone here]

 

48 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

In the end we will never really know the Why of Existence, the Why of why I am here, and why are things the way they are, its too complex, to sophisticated, if You go down this rabbit hole You will endlessly be asking WHY. I much rather bask in the knowing of I do not know everything and experience Bliss and Source as much as possible

Interesting.  I'm not sure about that .that's a challenging topic. Shit..it is the most important topic ever ..the question of who am I and where we came from and where are we going etc . 

Notice though that claiming we will never know is a claim of knowledge in itself . How do you know that you will never know ?

[zurew]

Since people are making things more difficult and confusing, I will add to the confusion, cause why not.

 

17 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

if your thoughts are caused, your sense of choosing is an illusion; if they aren't caused, they're random which also isn't 'you choosing'

Yes, but that doesn't exhaust the possibility space.

For example, having preferences that arent caused is a possibility and there your choices arent random at all, they are based on those uncaused preferences. - for instance, having an eternal soul outside of time and space and that soul having preferences.  Or we can consider platonic objects determining things (which you can categorize under determinism, but there you need to invoke a different notion of causation that works outside of time and space).

And we can complicate things more by introducing the concept of "bruteness" and "brute facts", where a brute fact is a fact that in principle doesn't have an explanation. The relevance of bringing this up is that this can potentially break the dichotomy you created (this can break the idea that if your thoughts arent caused, then they are necessarily random). And then we can cash out how and why brute facts are different from randomness (depending on what is meant by randomness). So for example, If by randomness you mean having a set of n possible options, where each option has an equal probability of being chosen, then thats going to be different from brute facts, because brute facts are compatible with you choosing one particular option no matter how many times we run back the exact same scenario.

 

 

Generally, the approaches that attempt to “save” some form of free will involve - introducing nuance when it comes to different notions of causation and invoking notions that arent easily or directly mappable onto the dichotomy between randomness and regular causation.

Edited 22 hours ago by zurew

[Ishanga]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

Interesting.  I'm not sure about that .that's a challenging topic. Shit..it is the most important topic ever ..the question of who am I and where we came from and where are we going etc . 

Notice though that claiming we will never know is a claim of knowledge in itself . How do you know that you will never know ?

You will never know the entirety of WHY, WHy creation, why did this specific thing happen to this specific person at a specific time (Why did Joe Donelay trip on the sidewalk on Feb, 5th 1943 at 3:23 pm in the afternoon, while on Simpson Street in Chicago?) You will never know the Why of it, that is what I mean by Why, You don't and can't know exactly why every situation came about and resulted in what happened, even within Your own life history it will be very hard to find out all the answers to WHY, and it would waste Your whole life trying to find out the why..  The Why comes from Your Intellect, its a part of it to know why, so You live better tomorrow, but its not applicable to Spiritual Questions and such things, as Reality doesn't work logically and why questions require a story and belief in a story to happen for why to dissipate but Stories are not reality, just stories!

[Someone here]

@zurew my dude ..there is no complication at all. You don't even know what's gonna happen next second..you don't even know what's happening right now..then people seriously try to make an argument for "people with free will and independent existence "???? This doesn't even get off the ground . It dies before it's born. Just come on .its hilarious. OP has watched Leo's first episode on free will then it's over ..he is fucked forever. There is no going back .

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You don't even know what's gonna happen next second

First of all, I agree that we dont know shit, im just laying down  possible options. 

Second of all , you pointing to epistemic issues doesnt engage with metaphysics. You not knowing what is true is compatible with weird things being true that you find incredibly implausible.

You not knowing X and or you not being justified in thinking that X is true  is compatible with X being true.

But for clarity - im not arguing in favour of any particular position there, im just introducing more options, thats it.

Edited 22 hours ago by zurew

[Someone here]

22 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

Why did Joe Donelay trip on the sidewalk on Feb, 5th 1943 at 3:23 pm in the afternoon, while on Simpson Street in Chicago?) 

Is there a reason for that event happening or not ?

If there is then why its impossible to know it ?

If there isn't then there is nothing to know .

Can a thing happen for no reason? Like all these religious folks argue well who created the universe? But how do you know there has to be a creator?  Maybe it literally popped out of nowhere just like that! 

[Ishanga]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@zurew my dude ..there is no complication at all. You don't even know what's gonna happen next second..you don't even know what's happening right now..then people seriously try to make an argument for "people with free will and independent existence "???? This doesn't even get off the ground . It dies before it's born. Just come on .its hilarious. OP has watched Leo's first episode on free will then it's over ..he is fucked forever. There is no going back .

Not knowing what is going to happen next sec has nothing to do with Free Will. knowing what is happening now is fully in Your capability, knowing totally what is going on within YOU is what it means to be Human ultimately.  You won't know totally what is going on around You, all You can do is either respond to it or react to it, responding is a Conscious Act (Free Will action), Reacting is an Unconscious Act (Determination action)..

[Ishanga]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Is there a reason for that event happening or not ?

If there is then why its impossible to know it ?

If there isn't then there is nothing to know .

Can a thing happen for no reason? Like all these religious folks argue well who created the universe? But how do you know there has to be a creator?  Maybe it literally popped out of nowhere just like that! 

"Everything Happens for a reason" is subjectivity, I may say Joe tripping has no reason, Joe may say it does have a reason, he may know the reason, I may not since I wasn't alive then to know how and why it happened... 

How can You know the reason why Joe tripped if Joe is not here to tell You???

Not everything happen for a reason, if it did then predetermination would rule, something things just happen, randomly.  Reason is another aspect of Intellect, Your trying to figure out the why, when You do it feels safe, this is feeling secure in life, Intellect, basic Ego wants to know to feel safe, this is Survival Level of Awareness and Living...

I don't think there is a specific "Creator" like they describe as God in the Bible.. Creation, Destruction, Maintenance, then Destruction again to cycle back to Creation has always happened or its happened over trillions of years, so that is eternity in my book, we cannot fathom 1 million years, never mind Trillions of Years!!

Edited 22 hours ago by Ishanga

[Someone here]

Enough internet for today .

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@zurew @Carl-Richard 

Cheers cheers, very much appreciate your insights here 

[Someone here]

I enjoyed this thread .dope as fuck. But I might be getting my own self into very negative spiral of crazy thoughts . Time for good old meditation session with my cat lol.

[Someone here]

Free will is an illusion though there is no question about it .all you need is to think about it for a second haha 😂. 

[Ishanga]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Free will is an illusion though there is no question about it .all you need is to think about it for a second haha 😂. 

There has to be a "Question about It" because I and others do not agree with this statement lol...

For it too be a real "No Question about it" means everyone agrees! Every Human Being needs O2 to breath! This is a no Question about it thing.  Free Will is up for debate for sure, since we don't agree, that says choice is there already, since there is choice found somewhere, Free Will exists!

Its important to know that one is capable of using and exerting Free Will because this is the basic Human Quality and Right, so its like not learning how to read, how to write, and such basic survival tools, we know how to teach it, the skill is invaluable, so someone not learn it is at a great disadvantage and disempowerment, that is tragic, as is thinking/believing Free Wil doesn't exist...

[zurew]

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Time for good old meditation session with my cat lol.

Imagine being  blessed with a predetermined meditation session with your cat.

Thats some good life right there.

[Someone here]

18 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Natasha Tori Maru no its not complicated and everything you said is false.

Get a piece of paper and pen.. and write down the first movie that comes to mind.

Notice how the content of whatever movie it was..was completely unanticipated and random? 

Now extend the realization of this experience of happening  of thinking of a movie  to your entire existence.

Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening.

@Ishanga just leave it that buddy I'm not gonna dance around it because I literally don't care ..I just smash everyone's heads with pure truth . These two posts killed the entire possibility of libertian free will forever 

51 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@zurew my dude ..there is no complication at all. You don't even know what's gonna happen next second..you don't even know what's happening right now..then people seriously try to make an argument for "people with free will and independent existence "???? This doesn't even get off the ground . It dies before it's born. Just come on .its hilarious. OP has watched Leo's first episode on free will then it's over ..he is fucked forever. There is no going back .

That's if you insist in discussing . 

Regarding" since we disagree then it's not settled".. poor argument.  Believe it or not people in the 21st century with Google maps and GPS still disagree whether earth is flat or round . Does that mean its not settled? 

Edited 21 hours ago by Someone here

[Someone here]

@zurew

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Someone here 

See?

Nuance. 

[Eskilon]

Just because something is caused doesnt mean that it isnt random. For a cause to exist there must be another cause, and a cause for that cause, and so on and so on. In which case, the caused is itself random because you cannot determine nor predict where it came from or it's origin point, thus the definition of random -- unpredictability. 

If infinity exists, nothing can be truly determined or have some definitive prior cause, and thus making determinism false. That is what prevents reality from being mechanical and  known, which is also what makes it spontaneous, "Random" & unique.