I`m Confused WIth Free Will

[zurew]

22 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@zurew cheers, the way you phrased your answer cleared up some misunderstandings I had on this topic.

Im glad, but I could have approached the topic in a less complex way and I should have only added nuance when it is actually necessary.

I think Carl managed to cut through whats irrelevant and immediately get to whats relevant to most people (where relevance is roughly defined by how a given view will affect your actions and how it will affect you phenomenologically and not necessarily about whats true independent from those)

[SimpleGuy]

11 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Even if the world is outside of your control and you're connected to the world, you still experience yourself taking actions and being in control. There is no contradiction between these things.

You used to feel being responsible, then you learned a philosophy which makes you think you're not responsible, but it's a category error. You still feel being in control, you still feel being responsible.

Even if philsophy says every action has a causal chain or if science says we can predict your next action 3 seconds before your make it by reading your brain, your feeling of responsibility matters, it has consequences. It is important.

You really drove the point home on this one. Thank you

[Vercingetorix]

@Xonas Pitfall Well said.

[Someone here]

Yes free will is an illusion because you as an ego don't exist and life is gonna do whatever the fuck it wants with you. 

It's not complicated. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

45 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Yes free will is an illusion because you as an ego don't exist and life is gonna do whatever the fuck it wants with you. 

It's not complicated. 

It can be a complex topic. Which is why I think OPs question was very pertinent.

There are few topics more loaded than if you propose there is no free will. People literally go mental at the proposition.

It has all sorts of implications people do not like. Meaning making can be the devil here. It is complex because its about the relationship between mind, matter and causation. And the reason it is so complex is because every layer of reality you peel back it opens a new contradiction: physics says everything is caused (shit follows laws, particles, your brain too), subjectivity says we choose (we feel like we decide otherwise). But logic cannot reconcile both - if your thoughts are caused, your sense of choosing is an illusion; if they aren't caused, they're random which also isn't 'you choosing' (as a rather shit example).

So to me there is a paradox, because determinism robs you of authorship. Indeterminism robs you of coherence. Compatibilism tries to save face by redefining 'freedom' as 'acting according to your motives'. But that sort of dodges the metaphysical question. At least this is to my understanding.

So it seems to me it is not just a philosophy problem - its like an ontological fracture. Are we mechanisms, experiencers, both? and every field seems to have a stake in it: neuroscience, physics, ethics, religion, phenomenology...

Edited 16 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Someone here]

@Natasha Tori Maru no its not complicated and everything you said is false.

Get a piece of paper and pen.. and write down the first movie that comes to mind.

Notice how the content of whatever movie it was..was completely unanticipated and random? 

Now extend the realization of this experience of happening  of thinking of a movie  to your entire existence.

Free will ain't there. It's all just pure happening.

To people who think they have free will: what the fuck is wrong with you ?

Of course nothing .

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

@Natasha Tori Maru no its not complicated and everything you said is false.

Sure, but you didn't extrapolate on the nuance of the topic.

So you essentially communicated the OP's question and the dialogue that ensued was not warranting the complexity of answers.

But I think it does.

[Someone here]

@Natasha Tori Maru because there is no nuance to the topic .

all those replies are totally wrong. 

my reply is what is the answer is. 

omg so we don't have responsibility?  Yes we don't .

Omg so morality is nonsense? Yes it is nonsense. 

Yada yada .

Sorry thats the truth .nothing personal. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

all those replies are totally wrong. 

Sorry, but that is not correct. Just because your paragraph is simpler does not make mine incorrect.

[Someone here]

@Natasha Tori Maru OK.

[Ishanga]

The very fact ppl have different opinions, as above, proves Free Will Exists lol! How much more obvious can it get when one say there is NO FREE WILL, and another Says there is FREE WILL, that is a choice being made on each understanding...

We have choice that is for sure, Ppl are choosing to participate on this forum, the choice though can be Conscious or Unconscious, Conscious choice are the Wiser way, as You now have more choice and a deeper choices to make. Unconscious Choices means Your more influenced by whatever it is is, karma, societal pressure, seeking pleasure or security outside of Yourself, etc, there are millions of forces out there that can influence Your choice, but it is still You that makes the choice, its just not as natural as being Conscious of Your Choice..

Even Your Body, mostly it is predetermined, but if You want to You can reshape Your Body, take it from unhealthy to healthy, and almost eliminate all genetic semblance if You want to, its just a matter of Will and Determination! Bruce Lee was not born into the body he had to make him one of the greatest Martial Artist ever, he crafted it, worked it and made himself into what he became!  Now not everyone can be world class in what they want to do or be, but they can be the Best Version of themselves that is a Choice and available to everyone!!

So Free Will for sure exists, the ppl that say it doesn't exist are either depressed, or so wounded by their past they see no hope...

[SimpleGuy]

1 minute ago, Ishanga said:

The very fact ppl have different opinions, as above, proves Free Will Exists lol! How much more obvious can it get when one say there is NO FREE WILL, and another Says there is FREE WILL, that is a choice being made on each understanding...

We have choice that is for sure, Ppl are choosing to participate on this forum, the choice though can be Conscious or Unconscious, Conscious choice are the Wiser way, as You now have more choice and a deeper choices to make. Unconscious Choices means Your more influenced by whatever it is is, karma, societal pressure, seeking pleasure or security outside of Yourself, etc, there are millions of forces out there that can influence Your choice, but it is still You that makes the choice, its just not as natural as being Conscious of Your Choice..

Even Your Body, mostly it is predetermined, but if You want to You can reshape Your Body, take it from unhealthy to healthy, and almost eliminate all genetic semblance if You want to, its just a matter of Will and Determination! Bruce Lee was not born into the body he had to make him one of the greatest Martial Artist ever, he crafted it, worked it and made himself into what he became!  Now not everyone can be world class in what they want to do or be, but they can be the Best Version of themselves that is a Choice and available to everyone!!

So Free Will for sure exists, the ppl that say it doesn't exist are either depressed, or so wounded by their past they see no hope...

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

[Ishanga]

2 minutes ago, SimpleGuy said:

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

Sharing for all to explore! Not trying to convince, just share! Its Your "Choice" to buy into it or not:)

[Someone here]

@Ishanga define free will ,according to you .

[Ishanga]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Ishanga define free will ,according to you .

We have limited ability to control our Body, so you can make it stronger and more healthy, but lots of it is more predetermined although with enough effort(free will in action) you can do allot of things with the Body.

The Mind You can control completely if You put forth the Awareness and Effort!

How You Experience the World, You inner nature and Feeling/Experience is where Free Will really is, this is totally up to You, its just a matter of How Conscious You are! If Your highly Conscious, then You have complete control on your Inner Experience, if You not highly Conscious, then You have no control and are a slave of sorts to outside situations and influences!

So Free Will is mostly about Your Inner Nature and Experience, not about controlling every event or situation around You!! Your lucky if You have 50% control of what is going on around and situationally!!

[Someone here]

@Ishanga  thanks . If you want to carry on this conversation please do so..and if you think its pointless then ignore me. 

4 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

We have limited ability to control our Body, 

What is "We" EXACTLY?  Its obviously not the body since we control the body .

6 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

with enough effort(free will in action) you can do allot of things with the Body.

How does "effort " equal free will ? Like let's say I do 100 push ups a day and you are a big guy so you do 1000 push ups a day ..then that means you have more free will than me ?

8 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

The Mind You can control completely if You put forth the Awareness and Effort!

Define "Mind ".

Define "we" .

Define "awareness "

They are obviously not the same thing since they are ingredients in a process you are describing .

9 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

this is totally up to You.

Take your pinky finger and point to "you". 

11 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

If Your highly Conscious, then You have complete control on your Inner Experience, if You not highly Conscious, then You have no control and are a slave of sorts to outside situations and influences!

Break down this entire process with tangible examples .

12 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

So Free Will is mostly about Your Inner Nature and Experience, not about controlling every event or situation around You!! Your lucky if You have 50% control of what is going on around and situationally!!

So you can actually measure a percentage of free will ? That's a whole can of worms into itself .shall we get into how does work EXACTLY? 

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Ishanga  thanks . If you want to carry on this conversation please do so..and if you think its pointless then ignore me. 

What is "We" EXACTLY?  Its obviously not the body since we control the body .

How does "effort " equal free will ? Like let's say I do 100 push ups a day and you are a big guy so you do 1000 push ups a day ..then that means you have more free will than me ?

Define "Mind ".

Define "we" .

Define "awareness "

They are obviously not the same thing since they are ingredients in a process you are describing .

Take your pinky finger and point to "you". 

Break down this entire process with tangible examples .

So you can actually measure a percentage of free will ? That's a whole can of worms into itself .shall we get into how does work EXACTLY? 

WE = You and I and all of Us!

Effort is Intention first, Intention can be determined or Consciously manifested,  I would say for most ppl their intentions are predetermined, they are living on the surface of life, only wanting more and accumulating/gathering more, more ppl, more stuff, more security, more entertainment, more of really nothing meaningful, like true internal self manifested Experiences, they are slaves to the outside basically! If You apply Effort that means You want change and doing action towards making that change, that is as aspect of exerting Free Will..  I am too fat, to overweight, I need to lose weight and become healthy, so You actively watch the type of food You eat, the quantity of food You eat, and You workout and become more active physically, this is an example, you can do nothing about being overweight/unhealthy or do something about it, that is your choice...

Mind = the basic are Mind is Intellect, Identity, Memory and Consciousness or Source Intelligence.. The Intellect is a Survival tool, it allows You to live better and safer for another day, we have super intellects because we so weak physically compared to many animals, so because of that we dominate the world, it allows us to invent things, and plan things out better, but its all on the Survival level of Life, Intellect wraps around what You are Identified with, male/female, rich/poor, health/unhealthy, religious/not, etc.. The basic identity should be that of the cosmos, but if that is not possible identify with being Human which means You have lots of Potential in You.. Memory is Karma, we need it to have life as it is on this Earth, no Karma/Memory/Foundation, no life here..Karma/Memory is also a survival thing, you can either get wise or wounded by memory and karma, better to be Wise from past experiences, not wounded.. Consciousness or Source Intelligence is God/Absolute within You, if You touch that aspect of what You are then Your Enlightened!

Awareness = is another form of Intelligence, it is knowing and being in Experience of God/Absolute, which is an sort of Intelligence that is not influenced by the past or memory/karma.. We can be low in Awareness, like a low powered light bulb and know/see little of what it means to be Human and what this world has to offer, or it can be a highly powered bulb and we can see/experience everything that we are and what this world has to offer..

You cannot take a finger and point or find a particular YOU, since we are not the Body or Mind, all we can know is that it is within Us and found in everything around Us that is living! So it cannot be pin pointed (this is intellect wanting to see it, touch it, feel it, taste it, smell it and the dissect it, but this is a separation process, not a coming together/connection process)/

So the basics are You can choose how to feel each moment of your life, You can choose how healthy and energetic Your Body feels, and how Your Mind functions and what Intentions You want to have for Your Life...If You were born with a bad body per say, you can make it the best it can be or let it rot, same with mind and everything else there is about us, Spiritually I understand it that most all of Us are on equal ground, all of Us have equal opportunity to be Enlightened Experientially, it is just that each of Us have unique Karmic Makeups, that will determine if it is easier for You or Harder for You to Experience Enlightenment!

[Carl-Richard]

16 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So to me there is a paradox, because determinism robs you of authorship. Indeterminism robs you of coherence. Compatibilism tries to save face by redefining 'freedom' as 'acting according to your motives'. But that sort of dodges the metaphysical question. At least this is to my understanding.

My idea of compatibilism (which I stole from Bernardo Kastrup) is that the feeling of free will is compatible with the insight of determinism.

Saying that you have free will in one sense but not another is a psychologically healthy frame, rather than "you have no free will, it's an illusion, you're a leaf blowing in the wind". To be able to say that you have free will is healthy, as per the confusion of the OP, but denying your logical mind is also unhealthy.

It's similar to how a frame of epistemic pragmatism is psychologically healthy (in my opinion) as opposed to say realism or skepticism, in that you can say "it's true relative to this criteria" instead of "it's true" or "it's not true". Here it's more about stating your assumptions and making them conscious. It creates a mood of being careful and being aware of bias, which I believe is more healthy than the alternative.

Edited 26 minutes ago by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

@Ishanga thanks I appreciate you and not trying to come off as trolly or dismissive...but You're begging the question.  We is I?  And I is us ? And us is we and we is you ? I'm sorry but there is no escaping the elephant in the room.  Epistemology of definition is on the list just for you. 

[Ishanga]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Ishanga thanks I appreciate you and not trying to come off as trolly or dismissive...but You're begging the question.  We is I?  And I is us ? And us is we and we is you ? I'm sorry but there is no escaping the elephant in the room.  Epistemology of definition is on the list just for you. 

The essence of what we all are, all life is, is the same, you can say it is Energy, a subtle form of Energy, or some call it soul or atman, whatever it is it is Us, but we have unique and different Body/Mind complexes..  Its like a bubble, we are bubbles of Energy or God/Absolute separated by the layer of Bubble material..  This bubble material is karmic material, it is like the glue, its keeps all the 5 bodies together and intact, food,mind,energy,etheric and bliss body.  Food body is on the grossest level, Bliss body the most subtle, non physical in nature,  Now I do not know how this process came about, the mechanics of it, but the why I think is simple, Absolute wants to know itself, so via the Potential making machine it is, we are here to play it out within a certain set of rules and limitations, a game of sorts, that's my take on it..

In the end we will never really know the Why of Existence, the Why of why I am here, and why are things the way they are, its too complex, to sophisticated, if You go down this rabbit hole You will endlessly be asking WHY. I much rather bask in the knowing of I do not know everything and experience Bliss and Source as much as possible..

Edited 38 minutes ago by Ishanga