In what way could being transgender be bad?

[BojackHorseman]

First, sorry in advance if this kind of topic doesn't belong here (in which case, just move it wherever), but since in another related thread a few years ago, Leo said "no more trans discussion in here, create a thread in politics", there I go)
So yes, on this other topic, Leo said that he wasn't very fond of the "trans phenomenon".

I've been asking myself the same things lately, as thoughts of "not being the gender I was born with" pop more and more into my mind. Is this a fad? Is this not a good thing for a human to want and change his gender? Are women what we generally see of them because of society, or is there some nature in this, and therefore would it be unfit for a man to try and become a woman, should he rather try to fix his psychology in another way?

I am not young, not at all in fact (which doesn't mean I'm any more smarter than someone 20 year younger than me). So I'm not really being influenced by some sort of fad, community spirit, etc.
Now I've been talking to anti trans persons, and smart and mature trans persons (on Discord, but still) regularly. For some reason the anti didn't seem as smarted and partial, but anyway.
I can't figure out if changing your gender is a mistake or not.
Obviously, the pros are simply that if you feel more at ease in the material world, in our current society, with looking and acting like what the opposite sex reflects, then it shouldn't be a bad thing.
But what are the bad things about it, then?
To be honest, I wish Leo would give his opinion on this because I'm very curious about it. 
But obviously, considering how reactive and pitchforky some communities can be, I would understand that, even with all the precautions taken to talk about it, it could be risky to have a public take around this.
Which is sad because I think there are interesting extreme or more balanced positions to be had about this "phenomenon" (which some would argue isn't one, have always been existing sortof, but couldn't be made on display as easily for many reasons).
I'm sure this community and its founder would have interesting ideas that we don't hear in both usual political extremes. Or even if they are the same, explained to make more sense as to why you'd go one direction rather than the other.

And as always : sorry for my bad english, etc
 

Edited Wednesday at 05:54 AM by BojackHorseman

[Leo Gura]

It's bad in the sense that you can invent a fantasy of your identity.

Identity is a very tricky, complex issue. There can be many disorders of confused identity. This is nothing exclusive to the trans issue. But the mind easily invents fantasies and identities for itself which may not correspond to any kind of grounded reality.

You want to make sure that your identity is not a self-deception.

There is a serious concern that trans people have an identity disorder in not accepting themselves as they are -- wanting and needing to be someone else. And then leftist politics and group-think can feed into that fantasy, making you feel like it's not a fantasy when it is.

You have to take this issue out of the domain of politics and introspect very seriously into the nature of your identity.

What are you?

Edited Wednesday at 06:38 AM by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

When you are feeling upset for what you are, when you are it, and think that adding something over top of the identity will help, it is deeply misleading. You cant just change without erasing what you are first. When you are upset and thinking that changing your identity will help, it wont because you are actually adding more on top of the discomfort you already feel as a mask. The upset person is still under the new identity and it starts to boil even more. When you transition the person you were before transitioning is still there.

Its like you have a house that you dont like and instead of tearing down the house you are adding more stories to it and then ignoring that the original house still exists. You can pretend its not there but your mind cant. This is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. When your identity collapses you are neither man or woman gay or straight or trans. The identity and the body dont have anything to do with eachother except for the fact that they are inhabiting one thing.

The idea of trans is one thing arguing with itself that it isnt what it is.

If you somehow erased the identity before transitioning theres no one there to want to transition.

Its a very personal and complex issue that is being pushed by the government and politics as if its a game. It isnt a game its very serious. Its more serious than religious beliefs. There are many children that are being caught in the crossfire.

Edited Wednesday at 07:05 AM by Hojo

[Talinn]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's bad in the sense that you can invent a fantasy of your identity.

Identity is a very tricky, complex issue. There can be many disorders of confused identity. This is nothing exclusive to the trans issue. But the mind easily invents fantasies and identities for itself which may not correspond to any kind of grounded reality.

You want to make sure that your identity is not a self-deception.

There is a serious concern that trans people have an identity disorder in not accepting themselves as they are -- wanting and needing to be someone else. And then leftist politics and group-think can feed into that fantasy, making you feel like it's not a fantasy when it is.

You have to take this issue out of the domain of politics and introspect very seriously into the nature of your identity.

What are you?

Transitioning can take like 3-10 years to do it well. I thought it would take two years to do a gender transition instead it took me 10.

 

Not the 4 hour time frame that Fox News says

 

Then you get under fire by society because it's rare that there's an ideal time to be trans since you took too long.

 

Right wing propaganda is more harmful than left wing propaganda because if left wing propaganda is wrong you'll usually get bored of transitioning after it takes too long.

If right wing propaganda is wrong you wasted your life because you were brainwashed to believe there aren't variances in gender identity. As usual right wing propaganda is worse.

 

When I switched hormones I immediately became less suicidal but I still wanted to be fair to both sides, then you realize the right doesn't give a shit if you try to be fair and balanced. The clock is always ticking so it was better for me to just dive head first into the process

Edited Wednesday at 08:18 AM by Talinn
Ranting

[Talinn]

1 hour ago, Hojo said:

When you are feeling upset for what you are, when you are it, and think that adding something over top of the identity will help, it is deeply misleading. You cant just change without erasing what you are first. When you are upset and thinking that changing your identity will help, it wont because you are actually adding more on top of the discomfort you already feel as a mask. The upset person is still under the new identity and it starts to boil even more. When you transition the person you were before transitioning is still there.

Its like you have a house that you dont like and instead of tearing down the house you are adding more stories to it and then ignoring that the original house still exists. You can pretend its not there but your mind cant. This is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. When your identity collapses you are neither man or woman gay or straight or trans. The identity and the body dont have anything to do with eachother except for the fact that they are inhabiting one thing.

The idea of trans is one thing arguing with itself that it isnt what it is.

If you somehow erased the identity before transitioning theres no one there to want to transition.

Its a very personal and complex issue that is being pushed by the government and politics as if its a game. It isnt a game its very serious. Its more serious than religious beliefs. There are many children that are being caught in the crossfire.

Yes and no. Changing hormones and getting SRS rewrites your brain so you can become a new person, but you have to put effort in it to facilitate this. I do not feel like the same person, I feel like I was born figuratively after SRS so I'm only 8 years old........

 

Don't underestimate either one, when you change genitals your body is forced to start rewriting its self concept if it didn't already.

 

There was a recent study indicating how HRT changes many protein functions in your body to change aspects of your biological sex. 

[enchanted]

Nothing is good or bad. For example, If some people want to wear colorful origami hats on their heads and insist we use the pronoun "fold/foldself"  we should let them despite it being a slight inconvenience to us or society. I think it would be fun if we were free to create our own identities and could dress the way we want and be whoever we want. 

On the other hand we can't be surprised some people will think this is stupid. Just like many things people do are stupid but allowed. Some arguably stupid things people do and identify with: circumcision, buy expensive purses and watches and cars, join an organized religion, eat meat, eat vegan. These things are almost as much a part of identity as much as gender is. I especially like to think of the parallel between adult circumsion (child circumcision is child abuse) and trans surgery. Both are altering your genitals for your new deeply help identity. 

So in some sense trans is a delusion in another sense it's freedom of expression.

Its interesting to think that men only wear "men's clothes" because of group think, conformity, and tradition. There's nothing inherently manly about a collared shirt and infact a few hundred years ago it was manly to wear skirts. So to truly break out of group think and conformity, like LGBTQ people claim they are doing, would one not care about what clothes one wears and put on anything? Or would they wear whatever clothes they like? 

Edited Wednesday at 01:47 PM by enchanted

[Salvijus]

It's possible that you were just repressing the feminine energy inside. Many men have a subtle fear of being feminine actually, perhaps they see it as weakness maybe. As the collective consciousness is rising, suddenly you find yourself accepting parts of you that you have held closed. Suddenly you feel like a woman and your mind will try to interpret that experience and say: "oh you must be in a wrong body". But that's a wrong interpretation of experience imo. I'd say you're still the same you that you've always been. You're just adding a new color to your beingness. You're adding new qualities to yourself. You're becoming richer and that's beautiful. You're neither male nor female, you're just you that has the qualities of both. And there is literally no need for you mutilate yourself or try to kill your masculine nature with chemicals. Own your masculine nature. That way you'll be a much more complete human being. 

[Talinn]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

It's possible that you were just repressing the feminine energy inside. Many men have a subtle fear of being feminine actually, perhaps they see it as weakness maybe. As the collective consciousness is rising, suddenly you find yourself accepting parts of you that you have held closed. Suddenly you feel like a woman and your mind will try to interpret that experience and say: "oh you must be in a wrong body". But that's a wrong interpretation of experience imo. I'd say you're still the same you that you've always been. You're just adding a new color to your beingness. You're adding new qualities to yourself. You're becoming richer and that's beautiful. You're neither male nor female, you're just you that has the qualities of both. And there is literally no need for you mutilate yourself or try to kill your masculine nature with chemicals. Own your masculine nature. That way you'll be a much more complete human being. 

No need to mutilate your keyboard by using it to invoke misogyny, to suggest that male to female SRS is inherently a downgrade. 

 

[MightyMind]

I find it problematic that educators and those in health care are encouraged to affirm what ever the person thinks they are when like Leo suggests there are a range of realities involved which takes time to reflect upon. And when it involves children (schools) this is why many, like myself, find this cultural movement to be very disturbing.

Example being, in my area parents received a phone call from the school to tell them that their child is now the other "gender" and they have changed their name to a female name. The parents had no idea of what was going on and they were now being encouraged to affirm and support their kids new identity which involves being the opposite sex as if it's been decided, and now the parents should just go along with it. While it may start with the idea of it being a gender identity it has young people transitioning to thinking they are in the wrong body. Depending on which gender, this can lead to to binders, drugs, and surgery etc which in some cases are not reversable. It's a money making racket and extremely experimental. 

In general I don't care what people do and how they identify. Use whatever words and language that best articulates their lived experience. But when the schools, government, entertainment, laws, and international orgs (UN) work in unison to push the idea that everyone has a gender identity and that your identity is your true self (generally speaking), and that all should affirm and therefore take on this world view, this is problematic. There's also the reality that teachers are not trained philosophers and usually have no experience with real meditation (self reflection) and so they are in no position to be exploring "identity", "true self" with anyone let alone kids who are not theirs. 

People are being shunned from their professional communities for stating ideas that counter the approved narrative. Here's an example of this: 

Kicked Out of Harvard for Speaking Truth on Gender | Biologist Carole Hooven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbmsPY8NEEo&t=39s

Here's an example of government (Canada) who promotes the idea that everyone has a gender identity.   https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/publications/diversite-diversity-eng.html#a

"Cis gender: A person who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth."  

My sex is not an identity, it's not something I "indentify with".

Here's a good convo that explores some of these ideas 

Matias De Stefano EXPLAINS Transgender Identity and Self-Acceptance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6rE0QF1l9c

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:12 PM by MightyMind

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Talinn said:

No need to mutilate your keyboard by using it to invoke misogyny, to suggest that male to female SRS is inherently a downgrade. 

 

I believe embracing both your masculine and feminine nature is a huge upgrade. And also honoring the body for the function it was designed for. It's not your role to perform functions of a biological woman if you're born a biological male and vice versa. Embrace the role nature has given you. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:33 PM by Salvijus

[Talinn]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

I believe embracing both your masculine and feminine nature is a huge upgrade. And also honoring the body for the function it was designed for. It's not your role to perform functions of a biological woman if you're born a biological male and vice versa. Embrace the role nature has given you. 

I have an intersex-adjacent genetic disorder and something like free will.

So, honoring the body for the function it's supposed to do would involve getting osteoporosis by age 30 from my HPG axis malfunctioning, having tiny small genitalia, and grimacing every time I look at the male genitalia since my brain didn't fully masculinize. Along with being a frail male like eunuch w/ almost no happiness. 

Oh I thought along these lines for years and years, you can't ever change your biological sex, you'll always have XY chromosomes so youre always male. But it just isn't true, if you put your soul in the oven long enough it'll manifest changes for your body, for your "biological sex", given enough time and effort. 

Leo isn't wrong but my point is just that society will already do much of the "thinking" for you in terms of "is it okay to be transgender". 

Edited Wednesday at 06:25 PM by Talinn

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Talinn said:

So, honoring the body for the function it's supposed to do would involve getting osteoporosis by age 30 from my HPG axis malfunctioning. 

 

I think you'd have more more success trying to heal your HPG axis issues, than trying to change your chromosomes. If you can put your soul into oven and transform it into an entirely different animal, than apply that same philosophy into becoming a healthy male that you were born to be. Afterall you can't escape your masculine nature. We all have the masculine and the feminine inside. Might aswell own it. Embrace your feminine nature but not at the cost of suppressing and mutilating your masculine nature. Let them both shine. Then you'll be a complete human being. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:57 PM by Salvijus

[BojackHorseman]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's bad in the sense that you can invent a fantasy of your identity.

Identity is a very tricky, complex issue. There can be many disorders of confused identity. This is nothing exclusive to the trans issue. But the mind easily invents fantasies and identities for itself which may not correspond to any kind of grounded reality.

You want to make sure that your identity is not a self-deception.

There is a serious concern that trans people have an identity disorder in not accepting themselves as they are -- wanting and needing to be someone else. And then leftist politics and group-think can feed into that fantasy, making you feel like it's not a fantasy when it is.

You have to take this issue out of the domain of politics and introspect very seriously into the nature of your identity.

What are you?

> It's bad in the sense that you can invent a fantasy of your identity.

You can indeed invent a fantasy of your identitity. But at some point you have to chose according to what you feel (obviously, not just one day, but if this has been lasting for years, you could maybe safely assume that some gender characteristics you like incarnating might be a good thing to embrace).

> You want to make sure that your identity is not a self-deception.
It's probably hard to be certain of your identity, maybe even until quite later in life, as far as I know. I'm 40-something, but I'm sure you can have spiritual breakthrough at whatever age. I'm still changing, or at least, refining my views and attitude. I'm certainly not a model of mental stability, but I think that if people weren't chained by conformism, and their surrounding, they would/could evolve in a more malleable way more often. In fact, this is obvious, but we're not fixed. 
So when are you sure that you're self-decepting and you won't evolve later on to something different? 
You can't. If so, then the only thing you can do is act on what thought seems to be sticking for more than just a bit into your head, especially when it's itching to make a given change.
Now, I'll admit, the risk and reward to change your gender is probably very high, for lots of reasons. Even if you don't use chirurgy and HRT and whatever, you'd still be ostracized by some, at risk of violence in some (even so called "civilized") countries, have trouble finding work, etc
And this is the main difference with transforming something else in your identity.

But is there even a way to feel how the people who really, for sure, have been, since childhood, or at least a very long time, felt bad in their own body because they weren't allowed to display what they feel strongly as their identity?
What I could admit is that some trans people are in this case, and not letting them is just torture, but in some cases, there might be people who are confusing the need to change they sex with the need to change something else (which might as well be my case, and which is why I'm pondering so heavily on top of asking for other point of views. But I think this part of the forum is not for personal details, unless asked for)

> There is a serious concern that trans people have an identity disorder in not accepting themselves as they are -- wanting and needing to be someone else.

That's interesting. But why would there be any limit in changing your given nature ? We are already apes trying to be something supposedly more enlightened here. We mess with nature every day, we're not primal humans in any, I guess the question could also be merging with transhumanism in a way, but when is it bad to change, and I think what is, over everything, the most important : why can't you not change your body if your spirit feels at peace? (now obviously, case by case, and some detransition etc, I don't know the experience myself firsthand, but some people I talk to regularly online seem so happy to have done that. Obviously they can be tricking themselves too, plus it's online, but yeah)

> nd then leftist politics and group-think can feed into that fantasy, making you feel like it's not a fantasy when it is
 

I don't want to admit it to myself, because I feel kind of immune, but yes, this might be more insidious than it seems in some people's mind.
Even if, I don't think many would make such a drastic, dangerous lifechange just because someone says it's ok.
But all of this interesting now that I think about it. Besides medication, the biggest kind of change you can do to your body to feel in adequation with your mind might indeed be a gender change. Maybe it's untold, even in one's trans mind, but it could be viewed as one of the strongest possible fix your views on life.
To take my example tho, I think it's useful that I talk about it despite what I've said earlier, but I've been depressed, anxious, etc for ages. Undiagnosed stuff, very possible ADHD and maybe bipolarity. So naturally I'm asking myself this too. Do I think of it as a fix for me life? Might the grass be greener on the other side?
And in this case, maybe I'm a tiny bit more self-conscious and thinking than some people, but I don't think that's the case : I actually feel (and I think most trans persons do) on top of excitation, very scared to even display myself as a woman on public. I immediately feel like it's dangerous, in every way possible. 
So, on the contrary, I wouldn't see it as a fix to whatever I don't like about my life/myself.

I'm very sorry for the messy writing and train of thought. I might be hitting the wrong things entirely. My brain's tend to go sideways and miss the big picture.
You don't have to answer at all if you feel like there's not actual interesting point to be made anymore in the discussion. Thanks a lot for answering in any case.

> What are you?

On the matter we're discussing right now, I don't know. When it comes to just living according to what gives you a good vibe, I just feel excited everytime I picture myself as a woman, in many aspects. But obviously, who knows if I'm lying to myself, even if I'm thinking very hard.

Edited Wednesday at 10:51 PM by BojackHorseman

[BojackHorseman]

16 hours ago, Hojo said:

When you are feeling upset for what you are, when you are it, and think that adding something over top of the identity will help, it is deeply misleading. You cant just change without erasing what you are first. When you are upset and thinking that changing your identity will help, it wont because you are actually adding more on top of the discomfort you already feel as a mask. The upset person is still under the new identity and it starts to boil even more. When you transition the person you were before transitioning is still there.

Its like you have a house that you dont like and instead of tearing down the house you are adding more stories to it and then ignoring that the original house still exists. You can pretend its not there but your mind cant. This is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. When your identity collapses you are neither man or woman gay or straight or trans. The identity and the body dont have anything to do with eachother except for the fact that they are inhabiting one thing.

The idea of trans is one thing arguing with itself that it isnt what it is.

If you somehow erased the identity before transitioning theres no one there to want to transition.

Its a very personal and complex issue that is being pushed by the government and politics as if its a game. It isnt a game its very serious. Its more serious than religious beliefs. There are many children that are being caught in the crossfire.

> The upset person is still under the new identity and it starts to boil even more.

Not if the upset person was upset because it was chained under a wrong identity by society's pressure? Therefore it wouldn't be adding another on top, rather freeing the first one. Revealing the actual one.
That's how I see it, at least.

But I can kind of see what you mean. It's just complicated to wrap my head around it in this way, I get it, but I don't feel it this way, for me it's more like I was telling about just before, which I think is a valid way of seeing it (the house metaphor is appealing, but we're not houses. The way humans are "built" and work is a totally different system and more complex)

> The idea of trans is one thing arguing with itself that it isnt what it is.
Ok but then what is it? A construction of what a male should be? This is all taught, right? I mean, not all. But lots. So what if you raise a boy as a girl? "What it is" is what it has been thaught. Then, it proves that you can decide what you want to be, as long as it can be achieved.
At least for the "female" identity a our society views it.

You could even be this as a male without changing your looks, I suppose? 
And if you change...then you are it? Do you have to agree with everything nature gave you? (obviously, I wouldn't say and go change anything, it also needs to not destroy your health, or if it does some damage to it, then the risk/reward  for your psychological well-being compared to the physical changes must be way greater)

And also when you say you erase your identity etc...let's not forget that unless one is very shallow, you identity's core value are not only to be a man of a woman, far from it.
If you ask anyone, dumb or smart, what constitutes their core identity, they wouldn't say "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman". This is part of it, as it does i contain certains qualities and way of incarnating them, but also, they'd probably say "I'm conservative" "I think all living beings deserve the same respect" "I'm pro or anti this" etc
Basically, gender is not your entire identity, and if for some it does take a high spot, it's not the norm, even in transgender circles, which, as cis women themselves put it, they'd rather other views about themselves than "You're a beautiful woman".

> Its a very personal and complex issue that is being pushed by the government and politics as if its a game.
It is. But I'm sure we here, do everything we can form our current level of spiritual evolution, to think as hard as possible outside those boxes (not saying dumb shit like we're better or whatnot. You get the idea).
But most of society, yes. Very blindly caught in all this, one way or another. And I do agree on the children. That's a complex thing to think about, but also, clearly the only point I wouldn't agree about with the general extreme leftist opinions on this matter. I would instinctively even tend to say no, if I had children myself. But I'm not thinking deeper about this right now.

[Talinn]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

I think you'd have more more success trying to heal your HPG axis issues, than trying to change your chromosomes. If you can put your soul into oven and transform it into an entirely different animal, than apply that same philosophy into becoming a healthy male that you were born to be. Afterall you can't escape your masculine nature. We all have the masculine and the feminine inside. Might aswell own it. Embrace your feminine nature but not at the cost of suppressing and mutilating your masculine nature. Let them both shine. Then you'll be a complete human being. 

I was already having negative psychosomatic symptoms from having a penis at 5 years old , I think I'm good. I don't miss it at all

Some critical developmental milestones to masculinize my brain were already missed and I can't go back in time. Medical science couldn't fix the R424X mutation in the KAL1 gene then and it can't now. I'm pretty sure we're talking in circles though.

The rest of your post is accurate, the stuff about both men and women having masculinity and femininity within them. 

[BojackHorseman]

@TalinnI don't have anything useful to say, but thanks for you point of view, very good to hear this side too, and as far I'm concerned, makes lots of sense.

9 hours ago, enchanted said:

Nothing is good or bad. For example, If some people want to wear colorful origami hats on their heads and insist we use the pronoun "fold/foldself"  we should let them despite it being a slight inconvenience to us or society. I think it would be fun if we were free to create our own identities and could dress the way we want and be whoever we want. 

On the other hand we can't be surprised some people will think this is stupid. Just like many things people do are stupid but allowed. Some arguably stupid things people do and identify with: circumcision, buy expensive purses and watches and cars, join an organized religion, eat meat, eat vegan. These things are almost as much a part of identity as much as gender is. I especially like to think of the parallel between adult circumsion (child circumcision is child abuse) and trans surgery. Both are altering your genitals for your new deeply help identity. 

So in some sense trans is a delusion in another sense it's freedom of expression.

Its interesting to think that men only wear "men's clothes" because of group think, conformity, and tradition. There's nothing inherently manly about a collared shirt and infact a few hundred years ago it was manly to wear skirts. So to truly break out of group think and conformity, like LGBTQ people claim they are doing, would one not care about what clothes one wears and put on anything? Or would they wear whatever clothes they like? 

 

> For example, If some people want to wear colorful origami hats on their heads and insist we use the pronoun "fold/foldself"  we should let them despite it being a slight inconvenience to us or society. 

And I'd add, why even are they an inconvenience if they do not slow down the way other people want to live? Because they're...non-conformists? (omg is this an Actualized.org video reference ?)

>  eat meat, eat vegan. These things are almost as much a part of identity as much as gender is.

Small sideway from the main topic here, but : yes, for some it is. For myself and probably lots of others, it's just embracing a set of values (animals, blablabla) that I deeply believe in and have been since I was a child. And I was not implanted that by society, on the contrary. There weren't even anything in medias defending this, especially not in my country. Accepting veganism publicly is quite recent, from my point of view.
Without making fights about who's right or demonizing, I'd argue that it's more of an identity thing from meat eaters than vegans, because it represents defending what they're been thaught is good and traditional. Whereas most vegans had to think, feel, and take a leap to change their diet for something that is still to this day viewed as many by potentially risky, just because they wanted to protect either the environment or animal lives.
Nobody takes a vegan badge just because it's cool, in exchange for having to eat less tasty things (when cooked with average skills) and having less options in society (and also being more expensive in certain parts of the world, as I understand)

> So to truly break out of group think and conformity, like LGBTQ people claim they are doing, would one not care about what clothes one wears and put on anything?
I may not agree with some points in Leo's latest video on this, but breaking conformity is literally just... breaking conformity. Which is, what the vast, vast majority of people are doing. Therefore, being allowed to wear the clothes you want to, especially when there's no deep reason not to. Just because you like it. If you don't do this to fit the mold of a tribe, then it's just fashion. A passion like any other that brings pleasure. Materializing how you feel you want to appear, or just what YOU like seeing (fashion is also for us, or it would be the same as saying we're only doing art for the others, except we have to feel something exciting first too).

Now, practically, there's a counterpoint to add. I don't know much about fashion, but as for my observations of myself and others, considering general aesthetics/graphic rules, not everything seems to fit everyone. Some dresses or skirts for instance, can fit men crossdressing, and some other just don't work, maybe because they're built for a different type of body, highlighting different parts, in the first place.
Counter-counterpoint : I've lately stumbled upon non transitionned men that wear confidently female clothes I didn't think would work, with a feminine, self-assured attitude, and for those reason those matched. 
Which could be another indicator that a general "feminine" vibe is not to be excluded even if you're born a male.

[Talinn]

There is also a huge variance in the way people dress. 

I still pretty much wear androgynous clothing with only some slight "feminine" accessories being added on from time to time

 

It can be a lose lose scenario with clothes and presentation. Try too hard to be femme and people say you're adopting stereotypes about women too much. Don't try hard enough and people don't take your feminine identity seriously and say you're not committed. They just find any workaround to try to insult you since you broke their brain a little too much.

[BojackHorseman]

9 hours ago, Salvijus said:

It's possible that you were just repressing the feminine energy inside. Many men have a subtle fear of being feminine actually, perhaps they see it as weakness maybe. As the collective consciousness is rising, suddenly you find yourself accepting parts of you that you have held closed. Suddenly you feel like a woman and your mind will try to interpret that experience and say: "oh you must be in a wrong body". But that's a wrong interpretation of experience imo. I'd say you're still the same you that you've always been. You're just adding a new color to your beingness. You're adding new qualities to yourself. You're becoming richer and that's beautiful. You're neither male nor female, you're just you that has the qualities of both. And there is literally no need for you mutilate yourself or try to kill your masculine nature with chemicals. Own your masculine nature. That way you'll be a much more complete human being. 

> It's possible that you were just repressing the feminine energy inside.

I certainly am when I need to be seen as a man, because it puts me into a safer position. Ie, crossing paths with someone that's threatening me in the street, for instance. 

But the rest of my life? Usually, I think I've actually had trouble hiding it. That's one of the reasons I came to this conclusion, looking at it retrospectively. 
There may have been various other reasons why I didn't "fit in", to put it simply, but there are also other pointers that, until that point where I tried to look more self assured in life (following content like RSD or whatnot, which I don't totally reject for what I needed at the time), I was the weak, weird guy, that was kind of forcing himself to get along with what most boys and later on men seem to feel very naturally as a pleasant attitude to have.

> Own your masculine nature.

Except, superficially or spiritually, I'm having trouble being on the masculine frequency. Not saying I'm 100% feeling feminine, but no one is 100% one or the other anyway.

As for the qualities you're speaking about, yes, they could be added without appearing as a woman. But why not displaying, incarnating, what I feel like inside, if it gives me pleasure, and is not detrimental to anything else in my quality of life? (well, that's if society was an utopia, cause obviously, men who'd display that physically, except in certain hip parts of some countries, are probably not going to have the best of time if they don't chose their circle/the place they go to carefully)

[Talinn]

It's indisputable that there is at least a small portion of people who were swept up in the transgender craze who would later regret it but given that there are still strong priorities for the body to preserve itself and not undergo such drastic surgeries..and the amount of hate you will quickly run into, most of the "transtrenders" will stop before they get too far into transitioning. Since as I alluded to before it's not a 4 hour process....

[BojackHorseman]

6 hours ago, MightyMind said:

I find it problematic that educators and those in health care are encouraged to affirm what ever the person thinks they are when like Leo suggests there are a range of realities involved which takes time to reflect upon. And when it involves children (schools) this is why many, like myself, find this cultural movement to be very disturbing.

Example being, in my area parents received a phone call from the school to tell them that their child is now the other "gender" and they have changed their name to a female name. The parents had no idea of what was going on and they were now being encouraged to affirm and support their kids new identity which involves being the opposite sex as if it's been decided, and now the parents should just go along with it. While it may start with the idea of it being a gender identity it has young people transitioning to thinking they are in the wrong body. Depending on which gender, this can lead to to binders, drugs, and surgery etc which in some cases are not reversable. It's a money making racket and extremely experimental. 

In general I don't care what people do and how they identify. Use whatever words and language that best articulates their lived experience. But when the schools, government, entertainment, laws, and international orgs (UN) work in unison to push the idea that everyone has a gender identity and that your identity is your true self (generally speaking), and that all should affirm and therefore take on this world view, this is problematic. There's also the reality that teachers are not trained philosophers and usually have no experience with real meditation (self reflection) and so they are in no position to be exploring "identity", "true self" with anyone let alone kids who are not theirs. 

People are being shunned from their professional communities for stating ideas that counter the approved narrative. Here's an example of this: 

Kicked Out of Harvard for Speaking Truth on Gender | Biologist Carole Hooven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbmsPY8NEEo&t=39s

Here's an example of government (Canada) who promotes the idea that everyone has a gender identity.   https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/publications/diversite-diversity-eng.html#a

"Cis gender: A person who identifies with the sex they were assigned at birth."  

My sex is not an identity, it's not something I "indentify with".

Here's a good convo that explores some of these ideas 

Matias De Stefano EXPLAINS Transgender Identity and Self-Acceptance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6rE0QF1l9c

 

 

Ok, but we're talking here about how society fixes some rules and reacts to this phenomenon.
Obviously, society will give extreme, sometimes too much, backlash to whatever community was persecuted in the past.
I also think USA is as often more extreme on many things, glancing at it, I don't think there have been similar cases in Europe.
But anyway, what I wanted to say first was that, the way society (and granted, some people in the trans community or around it) overreacts and put up abusive rules should not be an argument to say that the idea of transgenderism itself is dangerous.
But yes, as I was saying in another post, children transitionning might work but to me, from where I stand right now, definitely seems like a bit of a dangerous idea. When discussing this subject, I'm talking "adults", in general.