Decolonizing Veganism - Stage green cringe

[enchanted]

While everything they say is mostly true the speakers are the most stereotypical stage green examples I've every seen. It's worth watching for cringe and also the good information about cultures. It helps me understand my siblings who are all vegans, anti white, anti colonial, feminist, anti capitalist, social activists.

The one speaker actually starts his speech by apologizing that he is a white male 😂

Or am I wrong and these people actually stage yellow? Would love to hear your thoughts. 

Edited 21 hours ago by enchanted

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

I think there is no problem with veganism, feminism or social activism (I do have problems with all the other ones tho lol), the problem is the collectivist thinking underpinning these ideologies. Thinking in and identifying yourself and others in terms of groups, it's always my group vs. your group. This group oppresses me (or if you are a masochist like that white guy in the video, I am part of the opressor group). That is not to say that this thinking in terms of groups is something avoidable, it clearly is not. However, I think it is possible to minimize it as much as possible

If you are ideological you are automatically collectivist

Edited 18 hours ago by NewKidOnTheBlock

[enchanted]

8 minutes ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

I think there is no problem with veganism, feminism or social activism (I do have problems with all the other ones tho lol), the problem is the collectivist thinking underpinning these ideologies. Thinking in and identifying yourself and others in terms of groups, it's always my group vs. your group. This group oppresses me (or if you are a masochist like that white guy in the video, I am part of the opressor group). That is not to say that this thinking in terms of groups is something avoidable, it clearly is not. However, I think it is possible to minimize it as much as possible

If you are ideological you are automatically collectivist

That's a great point. And I also agree 100% with the speakers in the video. It's just fun to watch stage green tie itslef into knots to try and be multicultural and not oppressive. They have clearly made a shadow of  "white colonialist" aka "the white devil". But if multiculturalism/post modernism is true then "white colonial" is just another valid perspective with lots of advantages and disadvantages.

I think the presents are way ahead of their time (compared to the average person) but I'm glad they are trying to awaken the species to higher values and greater consciousness. 

Edited 18 hours ago by enchanted

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, enchanted said:

The one speaker actually starts his speech by apologizing that he is a white male 😂

I'm far from being pro-vegan, but there are plenty of normal or even conservative vegans.

I like Vegan Gains on youtube.

Generally, a person is a people pleaser because it project its infantile narcissism onto others; a certain category of people, particularly on the far left indeed, are hysterical narcissists to whom you can't say anything and who project this onto "minorities".

Edited 18 hours ago by Schizophonia

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

18 minutes ago, enchanted said:

That's a great point. And I also agree 100% with the speakers in the video. It's just fun to watch stage green tie itslef into knots to try and be multicultural and not oppressive. They have clearly made a shadow of  "white colonialist" aka "the white devil". But if multiculturalism/post modernism is true then "white colonial" is just another valid perspective with lots of advantages and disadvantages.

I think the presents are way ahead of their time (compared to the average person) but I'm glad they are trying to awaken the species to higher values and greater consciousness. 

Agreeing 100% with them is a bit rich lol this whole putting of blame on white people is kinda cringe and I don't agree with that, granted I haven't watched the video but I don't think I need to in order to know how these people think

[carterfelder]

"The problem with white abolition of human slavery."

[Emerald]

I personally hold the perspective that it's unethical to eat animal products if you don't need to consume animal products to survive, which is why I am Vegan. And I hold that it's okay to prioritize human life over animal life in cases of food insecurity and/or life and death survival.

And that's not because I believe that humans are hierarchically more important than animals (as I reject the notion of human supremacy and the notion of a hierarchy of importance within nature). But I see it as ethically okay for every animal (including humans) to prioritize the survival of members of its own species. I apply the same standards to humans and animals alike, as I think humans believing themselves to be superior is responsible for so much disharmony humans have with nature.

So, I see it as ethical to eat animals if that's all that's available, for the sake of survival. But I don't believe it's ethical to place human creature comforts or even cherished human folkways (no matter how cherished) over an animal's survival.

So, even the idea that the importance of preserving human cultural practices trumps the importance of an animal's life comes from a human supremacist mindset where the suffering of animals is okay to inflict for the sake of maintaining something that's important to humans but isn't a life or death matter. 

I can sympathize that having cultural practices that one values which involve eating and using animal products makes it more difficult to go Vegan. It does make it more difficult. And I have no judgment of the person in question for not going Vegan, because most people aren't going Vegan anyway... but for simple creature comforts and pleasure-seeking, which is much less important that cultural practices.

But I think it's important to be consistent with the ethical principle that 'while humans can prioritize other humans' survival over animals' survival as it is every type of animal's right to prioritize members of their own species, it's still unethical to harm/kill an animal for any other non-survival-based reason.'

So, if a person is food insecure and they have to eat whatever food is available, I see that as consuming animal products to survive. And I don't see it as unethical. With food insecurity, the focus has to about eating... and not what is being eaten.

I also think it's ethically fine if someone lives in an environment where the only food available to them is animal products. Like the Inuit people who live in the arctic mostly have access to whale and other sea creatures.

But I can have empathy for people who choose not to go Vegan... even though I still see it as an unethical choice.

I have empathy for what the woman described where, to her mom who was poor and couldn't afford to eat meat, that she decides that she's going to eat whatever she wants. In my opinion, it's still not ethical, as it causes unnecessary death and suffering for the animals for the sake of human creature comforts and prioritizes human comfort over animal lives. But I can understand why that would be a choice someone would make. And because most people aren't Vegan for much less important reasons, someone in that position wouldn't be a target audience for Vegan activism... if I were to engage in Vegan activism (which I don't).

And as I mentioned before, it's also understandable that it might be extra difficult for someone to go Vegan if they have a cultural background that involves eating meat. I still think it's unethical because it is consuming animals for a reason that isn't survival. But it's also easy to empathize with, and they wouldn't be a primary target audience for my Vegan activism... if I were a Vegan activist.

The actual target audience for my Vegan activism (if I were to be one), would be people who live in wealthier nations without strong cultural practices who have enough money to choose what they eat and who only eat animals for pleasure and out of habit.

Vegans are currently 1% of the population... and a stretch goal would be to get that percentage to 2%. So, a Vegan activist needn't focus their attention on people who aren't Vegan because of their connection to animal product-based cultural practices.

They could just focus solely on the 90%+ of non-Vegans who simply eat animal products for pleasure. And the 'problem' of "Veganism encroaching upon cultural practices" is solved.

But beyond direct Vegan activism, ethical consistency is also important... and intellectual honesty is even more important because of all the cognitive dissonance surrounding meat and dairy consumption

And I notice that the culture argument is often used as a cop out because people fundamentally don't want to see themselves as unethical or oppressive for eating animals products. They want to come up with some justification that makes those actions square with their own code of ethics... when they don't for many people.

That's especially true for compassionate people who care about animals and who support causes that aim to end the oppression of marginalized groups. It would be really difficult for this type of person to look squarely at their meat-eating behavior and see the mindsets of the oppressor within themselves. 

And people get upset when Vegans compare the human oppression of animals to human-to-human oppression because people don't like to acknowledge their own oppressive ways... and the similarities in the mindsets of the oppressing parties.

The stories human beings tell themselves about why they're superior to animals and entitled to exploit animals for their own gain are the same kinds of stories that human being have told themselves to justify the exploitation of other humans.

So, instead of acknowledging one's own oppressive ways, it's easier to turn that guilt back around towards Vegans and be like, "I'm not a bad for exploiting animals. You're bad for comparing people who oppress/exploit animals to people who oppress/exploit humans."

But that's too honest and wouldn't sufficiently quell the cognitive dissonance. So, they say, "Shame on you Vegans for comparing marginalized groups to animals!"

So, culture is commonly used for people to try to invalidate Veganism as something oppressive... to make Veganism unethical and to make meat-eating ethical. It basically just becomes another defense to hide the ethical incongruence from themselves.

But truthfully, most of the people who make the "Veganism encroaches upon culture" argument, don't even care about culture. Most belong to "people who eat meat for pleasure" group.  It's just a cudgel to use to quell cognitive dissonance as it pertains to Veganism.

I once heard this white lady arguing with Earthling Ed (a popular Vegan activist) making all sorts of cultural claims about indigenous hunting practices as a justification for why she eats meat and dairy that she purchases from the grocery store that were produced in factory farms. And it was just her bullshitting herself to quell the cognitive dissonance.... only using a cursory knowledge of a particular Native American tribe's cultural story to hide herself from herself. And he rightly called it out as appropriating another culture for the sake of justifying her own support of factory farming.

Edited 3 hours ago by Emerald

[OmniNaut]

17 hours ago, enchanted said:

Or am I wrong and these people actually stage yellow? Would love to hear your thoughts. 

No this is still stage Green, everything she doesn't agree with is called White veganism. (Which is such a weird term for me, but okay). She considers Israeli people also white. It really depends how you want to group it.

She is in my eyes not SD yellow but still green. She is still fighting against, instead of transcending and including. The term white veganism has some racist tendencies to it, which she is exploiting, coming from a Mexican background. 

Me as a white guy, (should I be apologizing now?) lived in different parts of Asia, also there Vegetarian or Veganism is not often a choice but a necessity, because of poverty or environment, in the Himalayas room for herding cows, sheep etc. is limited.
I'm well aware of the impact colonisation had on different parts of the world. It shaped a lot of cultures to the point that we don't know what the cultures would look like without the colonisation.

I think this (white veganism) is mainly a US thing, In Europe this is not a big problem. Yes some people can't understand why people are vegan and some people have a problem with it. But nothing to the degree like I see in the US.

Wow, The apologizing this guy has to do because he's white when he comes up to the stage.

The NPO, in my eyes as the guy describes it is still considered SD Green, nothing wrong with that. I like the idea and the work (from what he describes), and he is trying to be open to more ideas. So maybe some SD Yellow elements, but it's still rooted firmly in SD green.

[OmniNaut]

Why is this term white veganism, it gives such a loaded emotion to conversation before the conservation even started. 

It's a bit of a rhetorical question I understand what the term means (same like the white guilt term that was used 10-15 years ago)  but OMG, putting racism and colonisation in this and categorising every vegan like that is astounding. This is Toxic SD Green at it's best.

BTW I myself am vegetarian for 13 years now. I started Vegan, after a few months I switched to Vegetarian, that suited my body better. 
I mind my own business, I do this for myself, sure I see the nature destruction and animal cruelty around me.

All my relationships were with non-vegan/vegetarians. I don't mind, the only rule is for myself I don't cook meat or fish, that you have to yourself.

 

BTW 2:
The girl from the video is (conveniently?) forgetting another important Vegan group. It's the SD Orange Vegans. Vegans because of their body, not the environment or animal cruelty. One of the most famous sporters is Lewis Hamilton, big advocate of Veganism, and surprise..... He's black.