Should i stop being vegan ?

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, integral said:

Extrapolation leap. "if less is better, none is best".

"If fasting is good for you, not eating is best"

"If exercise improves health, exercising all day is best"

"If reducing sodium helps blood pressure, eliminating all sodium is best"

"If sun exposure produces vitamin D, constant sun exposure is best"

"If caloric restriction extends lifespan, severe restriction is best"

"If antioxidants are beneficial, megadosing supplements is best"

"If sleep is restorative, sleeping 12+ hours daily is best"

"If reducing stress is healthy, eliminating all challenge is best"

"If some alcohol has cardiovascular benefits, more alcohol is best"

"If fiber aids digestion, maximum fiber intake is best"

"If cold exposure activates brown fat, extreme cold is best"

"If mindfulness meditation reduces anxiety, meditating constantly is best"

"If processed foods are unhealthy, eliminating all processing is best"

"If reducing sugar improves health, zero sugar is best"

"If stretching prevents injury, stretching for hours is best"

"If social connection improves wellbeing, never being alone is best"

This is the mistake every scientist makes and every salesman exploits.

"If you can't find 12 examples on the top of your head, ChatGPT will". Jking.

Edited Monday at 08:07 PM by Carl-Richard

[Jannes]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Are you saying that life isn't worth living if you're going to have problems and die.

If that's the case it's a projection of neurosis, of a mood disorder; it's as simple as that.

Its not a typical life with ups and downs, tragedies but also some good, its being enboxed with basically no space to move, constant stress etc. Its a life of only suffering. Talking about industrial livestock of course. Have you watched these documentaries or pictures from Peta?

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Industrial farm doesn't really mean much.

A pig can be fine in a typical industrial farm, and chickens can be stressed and cramped in "free-range" farms.

As a general rule, if I had to eat less meat, I would eat less chicken; a chicken produces much less meat, of course, but you can be pretty sure that a pig or a cow will be better cared for.

 

At least in germany there are certain standards that need to be met for a given label. 

Chicken arent as smart but have such little meat compared to a pig or a cow that the later would probably be more ethical. Imagine breeding a dumbass whale which feeds on alge for that purpose. Why are pigs or cows taken better care of then chicken?

[Schizophonia]

27 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Its not a typical life with ups and downs, tragedies but also some good, its being enboxed with basically no space to move, constant stress etc. Its a life of only suffering. Talking about industrial livestock of course. Have you watched these documentaries or pictures from Peta?

I'm talking about most farms; not the worst ones.

I could make you a compilation of several hours of guys being tortured in Mexico by cartels, does that mean life in Mexico in general is Mordor; no, because Mexico is not just about settling scores between drug dealers.

The only documentary I've watched was Earthlings but it's basically a vegan snuff film; the vast majority of factory farms aren't like that and I know because I've been on plenty; that's what I criticized Emerald for.

Now, if you project your human standards onto them it might seem mediocre but a cow isn't a human; they have 50 times fewer brain cells than you and have been bred over generations to function that way.
If you try to run a cannibalistic human farm lol, or even a wild boar farm of course it won't work; because they will attack you and things like that.

 

Quote

At least in germany there are certain standards that need to be met for a given label. 

 

Chicken arent as smart but have such little meat compared to a pig or a cow that the later would probably be more ethical. Imagine breeding a dumbass whale which feeds on alge for that purpose. Why are pigs or cows taken better care of then chicken?

Because it's bigger, smarter, cleaner, and generally stresses out faster.

There are also some pretty random reasons, like for exemple if you leave the sows with their piglets, in many cases entire litters die because she crush them lol; so you have to be present during the birthing and separate the piglets from their mother, at least while they're nursing, for example with a cage.

You also have to remove the excrement and urine and keep them fed all the time.
Lots of things like that.

Edited Monday at 09:52 PM by Schizophonia

[Jannes]

37 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

I'm talking about most farms; not the worst ones.

I could make you a compilation of several hours of guys being tortured in Mexico by cartels, does that mean life in Mexico in general is Mordor; no, because Mexico is not just about settling scores between drug dealers.

The only documentary I've watched was Earthlings but it's basically a vegan snuff film; the vast majority of factory farms aren't like that and I know because I've been on plenty; that's what I criticized Emerald for.

Now, if you project your human standards onto them it might seem mediocre but a cow isn't a human; they have 50 times fewer brain cells than you and have been bred over generations to function that way.
If you try to run a cannibalistic human farm lol, or even a wild boar farm of course it won't work; because they will attack you and things like that.

Have you visited the average farm with cheap meat though? Did you know the price of the meat that came from the farms you visited?

It would be worse for humans for sure, but animals also have basic needs like stretching, moving, not constant stress, etc. which will likely feel similiarly bad to how humans feel bad about not having these needs met. 

I you freed the pigs and cows they could still function in nature. Especially pigs. They arent really different creatures.

[Schizophonia]

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Have you visited the average farm with cheap meat though?

Yes, that's what i talk about

I didn't just visited farms lol

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Did you know the price of the meat that came from the farms you visited?

Not particularly, it depends.

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

It would be worse for humans for sure, but animals also have basic needs like stretching, moving, not constant stress, etc. which will likely feel similiarly bad to how humans feel bad about not having these needs met. 

The farms in question meet these needs.

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I you freed the pigs and cows they could still function in nature. Especially pigs. They arent really different creatures.

I don't know, probably at least for the pig.

 

[Schizophonia]

@Jannes 

That's more or less it.

 

Most pig farms have cages for pregnant sows for several weeks because otherwise they attack each other based on hierarchy, but it still makes them agitated so it will probably be banned in the end.

Edited Monday at 11:03 PM by Schizophonia

[Ramasta9]

14 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Lolz

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

Edited Tuesday at 06:45 AM by Carl-Richard
NSFW image

[Carl-Richard]

@Schizophonia No NSFW images on the forum plz.

 

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

My man, @Schizophonia doesn't speak for anyone but himself 🙂‍↔️

 

85.37% now 😗

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:50 AM by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Schizophonia No NSFW images on the forum plz.

 

My man, @Schizophonia doesn't speak for anyone but himself 🙂‍↔️

 

85.37% now 😗

 

 

It was too tempting

[Schizophonia]

14 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

I was teasing you with emerald because you are full of yourself and ultimately of negative feelings, even though you tacitly claim the opposite. 

[UnbornTao]

Again, the Buddha ate meat. Not making a case for anything, just distinguishing between "consciousness" and lifestyle.

[Ramasta9]

9 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I was teasing you with emerald because you are full of yourself and ultimately of negative feelings, even though you tacitly claim the opposite. 

Projection. I may feel things like anger, sadness, heartbreak and darkness in general, but they are not negative, nor i see them as which. The fact that you see 'negative' is a reflection of yourself. I see it all as 'love' playing itself out. I don't claim anything, I simply AM.

[Ramasta9]

9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Again, the Buddha ate meat. Not making a case for anything, just distinguishing between "consciousness" and lifestyle.

An age-old story people cling to. Maybe Buddha ate meat at one point, as did Jesus, or maybe they were fully vegetarian, but more importantly, as they became more grounded in their spirit, and as consciousness deepens, compassion naturally expands.

When you truly feel the oneness of all living beings, taking a life or consuming a being who resists death becomes impossible. You literally become what you consume. Everything is consciousness. And the more intelligent the life-form, the greater the karmic imprint.

That’s why almost every enlightened master ends up vegetarian or vegan. It’s what naturally happens when the heart actually wakes up. If someone can’t see that, it’s usually because the awakening has only happened in the mind and hasn’t yet been fully embodied in the heart-space, and often because the attachment to meat filters their perspective.

In the end, awakening doesn’t decide for you, rather it simply reveals what your heart can no longer participate in.

 

[Ramasta9]

The modern texts of Buddha and Christ are highly distorted, its very rare to find the original characters expressions, and there are some out there, but most importantly they are found within. That's how you know for sure. It becomes clear without a shadow of a doubt. That is Buddha Nature or Christ Consciousness, then the need to know the guru or master dissolves as you know Thyself.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

An age-old story people cling to. Maybe Buddha ate meat at one point, as did Jesus, or maybe they were fully vegetarian, but more importantly, as they became more grounded in their spirit, and as consciousness deepens, compassion naturally expands.

When you truly feel the oneness of all living beings, taking a life or consuming a being who resists death becomes impossible. You literally become what you consume. Everything is consciousness. And the more intelligent the life-form, the greater the karmic imprint.

At those levels of consciousness you also feel compassion for trees and other non-animal life. And while it doesn't necessarily erase "levels" of consciousness, the bottom sort of falls out of the scale, and truly firm distinctions become increasingly lofty.

I still stick to cells (or even more subtle stuctures, like morphic fields, or Platonic forms) being the basic correlates of sentience, not neuronal cells in particular. Materialistic explanations of phantom limb pain, OBEs, NDEs, are not very intuitive.

There is also the conundrum of people in your dreams being conscious, so when you act immorally towards them, that's also something to take into account (I'm being serious).

 

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

That’s why almost every enlightened master ends up vegetarian or vegan.

Do you have numbers on that?

Edited yesterday at 07:37 AM by Carl-Richard

[Ramasta9]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

At those levels of consciousness you also feel compassion for trees and other non-animal life. And while it doesn't necessarily erase "levels" of consciousness, the bottom sort of falls out of the scale, and truly firm distinctions become increasingly lofty.

I still stick to cells (or even more subtle stuctures, like morphic fields, or Platonic forms) being the basic correlates of sentience, not neuronal cells in particular. Materialistic explanations of phantom limb pain, OBEs, NDEs, are not very intuitive.

There is also the conundrum of people in your dreams being conscious, so when you act immorally towards them, that's also something to take into account (I'm being serious).

 

Do you have numbers on that?

 

Of course compassion extends to all life, but it's not the same thing I'm speaking to here. A tree or plant does not "resist death" in the same way an animal does, nor does it express the same intensity of will to live. Universal compassion doesn’t flatten everything into sameness; it deepens sensitivity.

There's a clear difference between taking the life of a being that actively resists death and harvesting something that doesn’t operate through pain-avoidance, fear-response, or a survival drive in the same way. Awakening isn't about intellectualizing sentience at every possible layer, rather it’s about feeling, more deeply and directly, what causes harm and what doesn't.

Dream figures, phantom limbs, subtle forms… they're interesting, but they're not the same as a living animal with a nervous system, emotional bonds, trauma imprinting, and a will to survive.

My point is simply that when the heart opens, you naturally stop causing avoidable suffering in the places where you do have a choice. And that's why awakened beings tend to gravitate toward non-harm in their everyday lives.

No, and we don't need numbers, because historically and cross-culturally, the vast majority of spiritual masters, mystics, monks, yogis, sadhus, rishis, daoist adepts, Jain saints, buddhist monks, and contemplatives naturally gravitated toward vegetarian or vegan diets. It's the norm, not the exception. It's simply observable, the pattern speaks for itself.

Edited yesterday at 12:05 PM by Ramasta9

[Schizophonia]

7 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Projection. 

Of course we are mirroring each other, but that doesn't invalidate what I was saying.

[UnbornTao]

On 11/19/2025 at 6:08 AM, Ramasta9 said:

An age-old story people cling to. Maybe Buddha ate meat at one point, as did Jesus, or maybe they were fully vegetarian, but more importantly, as they became more grounded in their spirit, and as consciousness deepens, compassion naturally expands.

When you truly feel the oneness of all living beings, taking a life or consuming a being who resists death becomes impossible. You literally become what you consume. Everything is consciousness. And the more intelligent the life-form, the greater the karmic imprint.

That’s why almost every enlightened master ends up vegetarian or vegan. It’s what naturally happens when the heart actually wakes up. If someone can’t see that, it’s usually because the awakening has only happened in the mind and hasn’t yet been fully embodied in the heart-space, and often because the attachment to meat filters their perspective.

In the end, awakening doesn’t decide for you, rather it simply reveals what your heart can no longer participate in.

 

 Jesus also ate meat and fish. Throughout history, there have been enlightened warriors in certain regions, such as China, who literally killed in battle. Sun Tzu was a military strategist. Ramana died of cancer. Chögyam Trungpa was an alcoholic, and Nisargadatta smoked heavily. Osho and Adi Da were involved in various scandals. Some apocryphal texts portray the young Jesus as temperamental.

What I'm saying is that whatever is true is true now, and that's what enlightenment gets you. However you live your life is already how you live your life. How you behave is how you behave. I am separating fantasies and images of "enlightenment" from the reality of it.

This is not to say that our actions lack consequences, or that we should be careless in how we live. Ultimately, though, this specific topic of diet is a matter of preference - a value judgment - that is up to the individual. It doesn't touch the truth in any way. Which is why bringing "the absolute" into these conversations is not useful, the way I see it. Handle relative things on their own terms. One way to frame this issue could be: What does a healthy diet consist of? Answering questions of this kind can take many forms, and different criteria could be used.

Regarding compassion, remember that Gautama, after his massive enlightenment, initially chose simply to retreat into the forest to live out the rest of his life. A nearby monk asked him to teach, and he replied, "Why? Nobody will get it." The monk said, "Somebody will." He replied: "True. Somebody will." (Something like that). Based on this possibility, he dedicated his life to teaching.

We imagine that such massive awakening would produce an extraordinary form of compassion, yet his first impulse was not at all to help or teach others, but to live out his life and die. Why was that?

Compassion might not be what we think it is. It is an interesting subject to contemplate.

Edited 1 minute ago by UnbornTao

[Ramasta9]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

 Jesus also ate meat and fish. Throughout history, there have been enlightened warriors in certain regions, such as China, who literally killed in battle. Sun Tzu was a military strategist. Ramana died of cancer. Alan Watts was an alcoholic, as was Chögyam Trungpa. Nisargadatta smoked heavily. Osho and Adi Da were involved in various scandals. Some apocryphal texts portray the young Jesus as temperamental.

What I'm saying is that whatever is true is true now, and that's what enlightenment gets you. However you live your life is already how you live your life. How you behave is how you behave. I am separating fantasies and images of "enlightenment" from the actual reality of it.

This is not to say that our actions lack consequences, or that we should be careless in how we live. Ultimately, though, this topic is a matter of preference - a value judgment. It doesn't touch the truth in any way. Which is why bringing "the absolute" into these conversations is not useful, the way I see it.

Regarding compassion, remember that Gautama, after his massive enlightenment, initially chose simply to retreat into the forest to live out the rest of his life. A nearby monk asked him to teach, and he replied, "Why? Nobody will get it." The monk said, "Somebody will." He replied: "True. Somebody will." (Something like that). Based on this possibility, he dedicated his life to teaching.

We imagine that such massive awakening would produce an extraordinary form of compassion, yet his first impulse was not at all to help or teach others, but to live out his life and die.

Compassion might not be what we think it is. It is an interesting subject to contemplate.

Again that is a story you've been told. History is greatly altered by those who eventually win the wars and gain control over the nations. Most of the true teachings and texts are long lost, few have been sourced out of the Vatican, most others burned in the library of Alexandria. 

We don't need texts or history to know the ways and lives of Christ and Buddha, because we are the same being, the deeper you go, the deeper you connect to other aspects of oneself, because there is no difference, we are one and the same, tapping into the same energy field, but that requires a deeper level of surrender that all aspects of oneself need to be dropped, only then you can truly know the truth at the level that is spoken and shared here, to tap into alternate lives and timelines and see and feel the experiences for yourself, but "programming" is the toughest nut to crack...

I'll lay a few passages here in regards to food and diet and lifestyle by the Master Himself.

Truly I say to you, my Brothers, behave in
such a way that the Father who lives within you will have no reason
to complain about his temple. I do not preach to you about the
dimensions nor the quality of the stones you make your own; I am
speaking about the heart that makes it possible for you to grasp their
meaning and their purpose. I am speaking also for the heart that
helps you to understand their origin. Thus, you will not kill in order
to satisfy the demands of your body, without first making sure of the
constructive finality of such an act. You are fond of animal flesh but
be careful that the animal doesn’t leave too big a trace in your own
flesh, as it may impart upon you its primary vitality.”
“It is the force that your souls still impose upon this Earth that
causes you to crave such food. Let those who may, remember the
words from the ancient scripture: I offer you all the grasses bearing
seed on the surface of the whole Earth, and all the trees bearing fruit
and giving seed; this will be your food.

Craving meat is more or less is a sign that ones consciousness still linked to denser vibrations, not that its wrong, but there is more learning and growth there, but naturally as you ascend or expand in consciousness, you will no longer crave nor can tolerate. I couldn't tolerate it the moment I woke. Different souls / different soul developments. Some children being born today can transition effortlessly, others and older generations struggle.

And as consciousness expands, you connect greater dots, that you could never perceive to connect and make sense of in the first place. 

"Everything exists according to the will of the Nameless One; the transcendental soul is never born out of a body of flesh, on the contrary, it builds a body of flesh and then settles within this body. But first it must create and elaborate its lower constituents: the human soul and its seven little flames that are superimposed. Purification through breathing, though it improves the envelope of flesh, acts first upon the invisible realms. This means that it cleanses the successive bodies of a being, starting with the least material of them. “*Thus, little sister, the sublimation of the cruder bodies is the last to take place. The vital breath energy acts with greater ease in the realms where it is already the undisputed master. These words should teach your heart the reason why a great many beings whose souls are clean and whose lives are noble do not enjoy bodily perfection. The cleansing of one of their little flames is not yet totally accomplished, and this is why the complete transmutation of their body of flesh may not occur. You must know that this transmutation will always remain one of the hardest tasks for a human being. If a breath alone is enough to shape the spirit, it takes a solar wind to regenerate a dense body."

Purifying the dense physical body is the final stage of spiritual evolution. First: mind, emotion, energy, intuition, subtle bodies, soul-layers are purified.

Only then can the physical form begin to transmute. This is why enlightened people can still get sick, age, or die.

A person can be spiritually advanced, loving, pure-hearted... and still have illness, age, physical limitations, imperfect bodies, and its because the lower, denser layers haven’t fully transmuted yet. The physical body is stubborn, slow, and very dense, that is the hardest layer to shift.

Spiritual transformation is gentle, almost easy. Physical transformation is violent, powerful, and rare. This is why light body activation, ascension, spontaneous healing, or instant regeneration happen to very few and only at extremely advanced levels.

I'll live a last passage here that goes a bit deeper and discusses the importance of the "living plant" food and purification.

“What do you want to love?” he queried as if he had read our
thoughts. “The total love to which you aspire will never be vague
and uncontrolled. It follows the lines of force whose ramifications
spread across the whole universe. For now,you must learn to
recognize these channels, to tame them so they may become an
extension of your bodies.
“This is not a discipline I want to impose upon you, my
Brothers, it is rather the key to a purification I suggest to you, so that
in full trust you will feel yourselves the allies of my Father. For this
reason, for three moons, you must practice two daily meditations
and eat nothing that has perished in fire, in water, or by frost,
nothing prepared at a temperature higher than that of the human
body.

“There is nothing arbitrary about this. Any heat above the
temperature of human blood destroys the primary impalpable qualities of creative life.”
Those instructions initiated the second stage of our growing
awareness. We had to change our way of life in order to experience
the inner light in a tangible way. As it had been made clear, the
Master did not wish us to become ascetics, but to change our habits.
At the same time, this was a reinstatement of an ancient code by
then long forgotten, but that he knew to be of value.

I'll let you guys decipher the rest.