Should i stop being vegan ?

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, integral said:

Extrapolation leap. "if less is better, none is best".

"If fasting is good for you, not eating is best"

"If exercise improves health, exercising all day is best"

"If reducing sodium helps blood pressure, eliminating all sodium is best"

"If sun exposure produces vitamin D, constant sun exposure is best"

"If caloric restriction extends lifespan, severe restriction is best"

"If antioxidants are beneficial, megadosing supplements is best"

"If sleep is restorative, sleeping 12+ hours daily is best"

"If reducing stress is healthy, eliminating all challenge is best"

"If some alcohol has cardiovascular benefits, more alcohol is best"

"If fiber aids digestion, maximum fiber intake is best"

"If cold exposure activates brown fat, extreme cold is best"

"If mindfulness meditation reduces anxiety, meditating constantly is best"

"If processed foods are unhealthy, eliminating all processing is best"

"If reducing sugar improves health, zero sugar is best"

"If stretching prevents injury, stretching for hours is best"

"If social connection improves wellbeing, never being alone is best"

This is the mistake every scientist makes and every salesman exploits.

"If you can't find 12 examples on the top of your head, ChatGPT will". Jking.

Edited Monday at 08:07 PM by Carl-Richard

[Jannes]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Are you saying that life isn't worth living if you're going to have problems and die.

If that's the case it's a projection of neurosis, of a mood disorder; it's as simple as that.

Its not a typical life with ups and downs, tragedies but also some good, its being enboxed with basically no space to move, constant stress etc. Its a life of only suffering. Talking about industrial livestock of course. Have you watched these documentaries or pictures from Peta?

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Industrial farm doesn't really mean much.

A pig can be fine in a typical industrial farm, and chickens can be stressed and cramped in "free-range" farms.

As a general rule, if I had to eat less meat, I would eat less chicken; a chicken produces much less meat, of course, but you can be pretty sure that a pig or a cow will be better cared for.

 

At least in germany there are certain standards that need to be met for a given label. 

Chicken arent as smart but have such little meat compared to a pig or a cow that the later would probably be more ethical. Imagine breeding a dumbass whale which feeds on alge for that purpose. Why are pigs or cows taken better care of then chicken?

[Schizophonia]

27 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Its not a typical life with ups and downs, tragedies but also some good, its being enboxed with basically no space to move, constant stress etc. Its a life of only suffering. Talking about industrial livestock of course. Have you watched these documentaries or pictures from Peta?

I'm talking about most farms; not the worst ones.

I could make you a compilation of several hours of guys being tortured in Mexico by cartels, does that mean life in Mexico in general is Mordor; no, because Mexico is not just about settling scores between drug dealers.

The only documentary I've watched was Earthlings but it's basically a vegan snuff film; the vast majority of factory farms aren't like that and I know because I've been on plenty; that's what I criticized Emerald for.

Now, if you project your human standards onto them it might seem mediocre but a cow isn't a human; they have 50 times fewer brain cells than you and have been bred over generations to function that way.
If you try to run a cannibalistic human farm lol, or even a wild boar farm of course it won't work; because they will attack you and things like that.

 

Quote

At least in germany there are certain standards that need to be met for a given label. 

 

Chicken arent as smart but have such little meat compared to a pig or a cow that the later would probably be more ethical. Imagine breeding a dumbass whale which feeds on alge for that purpose. Why are pigs or cows taken better care of then chicken?

Because it's bigger, smarter, cleaner, and generally stresses out faster.

There are also some pretty random reasons, like for exemple if you leave the sows with their piglets, in many cases entire litters die because she crush them lol; so you have to be present during the birthing and separate the piglets from their mother, at least while they're nursing, for example with a cage.

You also have to remove the excrement and urine and keep them fed all the time.
Lots of things like that.

Edited Monday at 09:52 PM by Schizophonia

[Jannes]

37 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

I'm talking about most farms; not the worst ones.

I could make you a compilation of several hours of guys being tortured in Mexico by cartels, does that mean life in Mexico in general is Mordor; no, because Mexico is not just about settling scores between drug dealers.

The only documentary I've watched was Earthlings but it's basically a vegan snuff film; the vast majority of factory farms aren't like that and I know because I've been on plenty; that's what I criticized Emerald for.

Now, if you project your human standards onto them it might seem mediocre but a cow isn't a human; they have 50 times fewer brain cells than you and have been bred over generations to function that way.
If you try to run a cannibalistic human farm lol, or even a wild boar farm of course it won't work; because they will attack you and things like that.

Have you visited the average farm with cheap meat though? Did you know the price of the meat that came from the farms you visited?

It would be worse for humans for sure, but animals also have basic needs like stretching, moving, not constant stress, etc. which will likely feel similiarly bad to how humans feel bad about not having these needs met. 

I you freed the pigs and cows they could still function in nature. Especially pigs. They arent really different creatures.

[Schizophonia]

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Have you visited the average farm with cheap meat though?

Yes, that's what i talk about

I didn't just visited farms lol

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Did you know the price of the meat that came from the farms you visited?

Not particularly, it depends.

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

It would be worse for humans for sure, but animals also have basic needs like stretching, moving, not constant stress, etc. which will likely feel similiarly bad to how humans feel bad about not having these needs met. 

The farms in question meet these needs.

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I you freed the pigs and cows they could still function in nature. Especially pigs. They arent really different creatures.

I don't know, probably at least for the pig.

 

[Schizophonia]

@Jannes 

That's more or less it.

 

Most pig farms have cages for pregnant sows for several weeks because otherwise they attack each other based on hierarchy, but it still makes them agitated so it will probably be banned in the end.

Edited Monday at 11:03 PM by Schizophonia

[Ramasta9]

14 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Lolz

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

Edited yesterday at 06:45 AM by Carl-Richard
NSFW image

[Carl-Richard]

@Schizophonia No NSFW images on the forum plz.

 

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

My man, @Schizophonia doesn't speak for anyone but himself 🙂‍↔️

 

85.37% now 😗

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:50 AM by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Schizophonia No NSFW images on the forum plz.

 

My man, @Schizophonia doesn't speak for anyone but himself 🙂‍↔️

 

85.37% now 😗

 

 

It was too tempting

[Schizophonia]

14 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Exactly, proves my point, the level of consciousness speaks for itself.

I was teasing you with emerald because you are full of yourself and ultimately of negative feelings, even though you tacitly claim the opposite. 

[UnbornTao]

Again, the Buddha ate meat. Not making a case for anything, just distinguishing between "consciousness" and lifestyle.

[Ramasta9]

9 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I was teasing you with emerald because you are full of yourself and ultimately of negative feelings, even though you tacitly claim the opposite. 

Projection. I may feel things like anger, sadness, heartbreak and darkness in general, but they are not negative, nor i see them as which. The fact that you see 'negative' is a reflection of yourself. I see it all as 'love' playing itself out. I don't claim anything, I simply AM.

[Ramasta9]

9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Again, the Buddha ate meat. Not making a case for anything, just distinguishing between "consciousness" and lifestyle.

An age-old story people cling to. Maybe Buddha ate meat at one point, as did Jesus, or maybe they were fully vegetarian, but more importantly, as they became more grounded in their spirit, and as consciousness deepens, compassion naturally expands.

When you truly feel the oneness of all living beings, taking a life or consuming a being who resists death becomes impossible. You literally become what you consume. Everything is consciousness. And the more intelligent the life-form, the greater the karmic imprint.

That’s why almost every enlightened master ends up vegetarian or vegan. It’s what naturally happens when the heart actually wakes up. If someone can’t see that, it’s usually because the awakening has only happened in the mind and hasn’t yet been fully embodied in the heart-space, and often because the attachment to meat filters their perspective.

In the end, awakening doesn’t decide for you, rather it simply reveals what your heart can no longer participate in.

 

[Ramasta9]

The modern texts of Buddha and Christ are highly distorted, its very rare to find the original characters expressions, and there are some out there, but most importantly they are found within. That's how you know for sure. It becomes clear without a shadow of a doubt. That is Buddha Nature or Christ Consciousness, then the need to know the guru or master dissolves as you know Thyself.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

An age-old story people cling to. Maybe Buddha ate meat at one point, as did Jesus, or maybe they were fully vegetarian, but more importantly, as they became more grounded in their spirit, and as consciousness deepens, compassion naturally expands.

When you truly feel the oneness of all living beings, taking a life or consuming a being who resists death becomes impossible. You literally become what you consume. Everything is consciousness. And the more intelligent the life-form, the greater the karmic imprint.

At those levels of consciousness you also feel compassion for trees and other non-animal life. And while it doesn't necessarily erase "levels" of consciousness, the bottom sort of falls out of the scale, and truly firm distinctions become increasingly lofty.

I still stick to cells (or even more subtle stuctures, like morphic fields, or Platonic forms) being the basic correlates of sentience, not neuronal cells in particular. Materialistic explanations of phantom limb pain, OBEs, NDEs, are not very intuitive.

There is also the conundrum of people in your dreams being conscious, so when you act immorally towards them, that's also something to take into account (I'm being serious).

 

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

That’s why almost every enlightened master ends up vegetarian or vegan.

Do you have numbers on that?

Edited 12 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Ramasta9]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

At those levels of consciousness you also feel compassion for trees and other non-animal life. And while it doesn't necessarily erase "levels" of consciousness, the bottom sort of falls out of the scale, and truly firm distinctions become increasingly lofty.

I still stick to cells (or even more subtle stuctures, like morphic fields, or Platonic forms) being the basic correlates of sentience, not neuronal cells in particular. Materialistic explanations of phantom limb pain, OBEs, NDEs, are not very intuitive.

There is also the conundrum of people in your dreams being conscious, so when you act immorally towards them, that's also something to take into account (I'm being serious).

 

Do you have numbers on that?

 

Of course compassion extends to all life, but it's not the same thing I'm speaking to here. A tree or plant does not "resist death" in the same way an animal does, nor does it express the same intensity of will to live. Universal compassion doesn’t flatten everything into sameness; it deepens sensitivity.

There's a clear difference between taking the life of a being that actively resists death and harvesting something that doesn’t operate through pain-avoidance, fear-response, or a survival drive in the same way. Awakening isn't about intellectualizing sentience at every possible layer, rather it’s about feeling, more deeply and directly, what causes harm and what doesn't.

Dream figures, phantom limbs, subtle forms… they're interesting, but they're not the same as a living animal with a nervous system, emotional bonds, trauma imprinting, and a will to survive.

My point is simply that when the heart opens, you naturally stop causing avoidable suffering in the places where you do have a choice. And that's why awakened beings tend to gravitate toward non-harm in their everyday lives.

No, and we don't need numbers, because historically and cross-culturally, the vast majority of spiritual masters, mystics, monks, yogis, sadhus, rishis, daoist adepts, Jain saints, buddhist monks, and contemplatives naturally gravitated toward vegetarian or vegan diets. It's the norm, not the exception. It's simply observable, the pattern speaks for itself.

Edited 8 hours ago by Ramasta9

[Schizophonia]

7 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Projection. 

Of course we are mirroring each other, but that doesn't invalidate what I was saying.