What would be the ultimate theoretical solution to self deception

[Agrande]

I’m afraid that self deception goes so deep there may NEVER be a solution to it.  Maybe the solution is to not exist at all forever but even then, that might just be another flavour of self deception

[Leo Gura]

The solution to self-deception is not-knowing.

[Agrande]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The solution to self-deception is not-knowing.

I’m worried about self deception on even an ontological level. How animals even exist to camouflage to blend seamlessly in their environments, easily catching prey. How humans also adapt in weird ways while they’re all being unconscious of it.

So if what you’re saying is true, then there should be a level of not knowing where I can’t even assume a form or exist because I wouldn’t KNOW it. I would be so beyond it all.

So thinking of myself as a human, i’d be raised by my environment into “learning” how to walk talk speak and my brain picks up so much knowing.

even as an animal or insect or alien or whatever perhaps they’re all built in with this inherent drive for knowing which develops overtime. Knowing they even exist. Even expanding my mind’s frame so far into experiencing alien consciousness.

Not knowing it is then 

at the moment, that ultimate level of not knowing is incomprehensible to me so I would have to go hardcore into solo 5meo DMT retreats and contemplation stuff etc.

 

 

[Malkom]

We're all like that, don't worry, bro . Just let go and allow yourself to be deceived, accept it, and forget about it.

This is what I just tried to demonstrate as an example of how to combat self-deception, by first acknowledging it. I certainly haven't invented the perfect method, but you never know. Hehe 

[Malkom]

The more you try to be right and not deceive yourself, the further you are from sincerity. You've come up with some obsession and think that solving it will bring you happiness. In reality, it's just an empty game. It's just your ego that wants it, or rather, your ego distorts it, while it's your soul that wants it. But what do you REALLY want?

"c" We look into souls and find the answers "c"

[Agrande]

2 minutes ago, Malkom said:

The more you try to be right and not deceive yourself, the further you are from sincerity. You've come up with some obsession and think that solving it will bring you happiness. In reality, it's just an empty game. It's just your ego that wants it, or rather, your ego distorts it, while it's your soul that wants it. But what do you REALLY want?

"c" We look into souls and find the answers "c"

Not about ego I’m just curious and bored of the typical human existence I just want to go beyond it all and discover what’s true. Novel, WTF things I would never have known before. Not knowing goes wayyyy beyond any of this stuff you’re talking about tbh

[Hojo]

@Agrande You cant argue with whats happening its happening. Self deception is thinking you know what's going to happen. All of this happens through thought. The solution is to stop thinking which is not knowing.

Arguing with whats happening goes deep but you dont have to do it. There are many influences in reality that tells us what is good and whats not good and when we do these things we argue with ourselves. Thats arguing with God which is whats happening.

The solution is to say everybody is a retard and is disobeying God when I'm doing it. And I don't know the outcome of anything.

For instance if you stay at home and smoke weed all day and longe around you will argue that leo said thats a bad thing to do and you shouldn't do it. Whats happening is you are doing it thats truth. The lie is that you beleive leo that its not the truth. The correct measure here would be to keep doing it and stop thinking about what other people told you is or isn't good.

Edited 14 hours ago by Hojo

[Agrande]

20 minutes ago, Malkom said:

We're all like that, don't worry, bro . Just let go and allow yourself to be deceived, accept it, and forget about it.

This is what I just tried to demonstrate as an example of how to combat self-deception, by first acknowledging it. I certainly haven't invented the perfect method, but you never know. Hehe 

I don’t want to be a deluded ignoramus 

[Malkom]

9 minutes ago, Agrande said:

Not about ego I’m just curious and bored of the typical human existence I just want to go beyond it all and discover what’s true. Novel, WTF things I would never have known before. Not knowing goes wayyyy beyond any of this stuff you’re talking about tbh

When I wrote "ego," I didn't mean selfishness. Egoism is something else entirely. Your ego is a given right now, just like mine or anyone else's; it's your thoughts, your feelings. When I wrote that "ego" is a hindrance, that doesn't mean eliminating it, it means... but that's where it gets complicated, ahahaha. Basically, your spirit must nourish the ego itself, kind of burn from within... Okay, I give up, I can't explain it. Anyway, bro, don't be offended and don't judge too harshly, ahahaha. Try going to a retreat or something...

Edited 14 hours ago by Malkom

[Agrande]

15 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Agrande You cant argue with whats happening its happening. Self deception is thinking you know what's going to happen. All of this happens through thought. The solution is to stop thinking which is not knowing.

I see but then high level buddhists would’ve been totally free from self deception. It can’t be said for certain that just stopping thought leads to freedom from self deception. Maybe partially but not fully. 

What if it’s meant to stop the CAUSES of thinking? The cause of thinking imo is the desire to know or to look for certainties. What is ontological self deception? Is it God’s desire to know/experience a certain limited form and to get lost/immersed in it?

By ultimate solution I mean complete freedom from self deception including at the ontological level not even the level of thought. removal from the root level.

My current understanding is that I would have to return to God’s purest state to end all of this. Before all the distortions, forms, limitations etc. default state before any form manifested into existence. 
just one ball of massive infinite potentiality or void

Insane work needed for that though. Had glimpses maybe. I was in states before where I could think of something and it would happen. But then I couldn’t sustain it.

Edited 14 hours ago by Agrande

[Hojo]

@Agrande High level Buddhists are indoctrinated the same way you were in school. They are confused and then reach out to others to end their confusion.

You dont need insane work to see the void you can take a psychedelic. The pure form of God is in front of you right now you are just arguing with it. That stops you from seeing it.

I saw gods pure form from drinking 27 beers and smoking an unknown substance.

God pure form is literally brain dead retarded not knowing. God dosen't even know it exists.

Edited 14 hours ago by Hojo

[Malkom]

17 minutes ago, Agrande said:

Insane work needed for that though. Had glimpses maybe. I was in states before where I could think of something and it would happen. But then I couldn’t sustain it.

Attempt number two. You don't need a ton of work to grasp this. The irony is that you already know it, you've simply forgotten it, or rather, even put it aside, but you feel it. The ton of work will be needed later, to integrate it into everyday life. Your main problem, as I see it, is that you live in your head; you need to establish contact with your body. You, how should I put it, see the situation incompletely. This is also typical of autistics, when they constantly seek structure and order and the constant repetition of the same rituals. They lack the emotional sphere and the ability to recognize emotions; they rely on intuitive-sensory perception, although both are the same thing; thought and feeling are one and the same. Basically, "turn off your head"—not in the sense of suddenly becoming dumb, in short... I hope you understand, but most likely not. Okay, I'm off to bed. Good luck with your search.

Edited 14 hours ago by Malkom

[Agrande]

8 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Agrande High level Buddhists are indoctrinated the same way you were in school. They are confused and then reach out to others to end their confusion.

You dont need insane work to see the void you can take a psychedelic. The pure form of God is in front of you right now you are just arguing with it. That stops you from seeing it.

I saw gods pure form from drinking 27 beers and smoking an unknown substance.

God pure form is literally brain dead retarded not knowing. God dosen't even know it exists.

That puts into perspective my past experiences of like having weeks of pure silence after some kind of awakening. Had a deep feeling of I am and “holy shit I actually exist and everything else exists?” But im sure there’s something deeper i’m missing here.

Even Leo himself said that nobody is near the high level to teach entirely overcoming self deception. self deception has it’s tentacles possibly everywhere tbh

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Hojo said:

The solution is to stop thinking which is not knowing.

If only it were so simple.

Life forces you to think, anticipate, plan, predict, decide, model.

Not thinking is not an option. This is one of the stupidities of teachings like Buddhism or nonduality. There is no such thing as not thinking. Everyone who claims not to think is thinking, and thinking poorly.

Edited 14 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Agrande]

32 minutes ago, Malkom said:

When I wrote "ego," I didn't mean selfishness. Egoism is something else entirely. Your ego is a given right now, just like mine or anyone else's; it's your thoughts, your feelings. When I wrote that "ego" is a hindrance, that doesn't mean eliminating it, it means... but that's where it gets complicated, ahahaha. Basically, your spirit must nourish the ego itself, kind of burn from within... Okay, I give up, I can't explain it. Anyway, bro, don't be offended and don't judge too harshly, ahahaha. Try going to a retreat or something...

From what i understood ur advocating for like some sort of balance of ego and my spiritual side but ngl i’m more extreme i wanna go balls to the wall with things. I’d wanna COMPLETELY eliminate it (cause i’m like that).

Also no hard feelings involved we’re just discussing I’m sorry if I came across as rude to you

[Malkom]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If only it were so simple.

Life forces you to think, anticipate, plan, predict, decide, model.

Not thinking is not an option. This is one of the stupidities of teachings like Buddhism or nonduality. There is no such thing as not thinking. Everyone who claims not to think is thinking, and thinking poorly.

Even not thinking is thinking . Even the absence of emotion is an emotion - I feel coldness, I feel alienation, I feel detachment, I feel indifference, I feel stunned, I feel confused, I feel perplexed... This spectrum and its shades of emotion are large. Yes.

[Malkom]

5 minutes ago, Agrande said:

From what i understood ur advocating for like some sort of balance of ego and my spiritual side but ngl i’m more extreme i wanna go balls to the wall with things. I’d wanna COMPLETELY eliminate it (cause i’m like that).

Also no hard feelings involved we’re just discussing I’m sorry if I came across as rude to you

The balance between the ego and the spiritual side... ahem... That's not it at all. It's not about balance or compromise, but about Truth.
Unfortunately, those who say it's inexplicable are right. All I feel now is regret, and even a little relief and hope.

No, you weren't rude to me, don't apologize.

[Sincerity]

An energy/wish/motivation to undeceive oneself, to be pure, to understand, to be unbiased, to be God-like in that way.

ACTED UPON. Not just once - but over, and over, and over, and over again.

Edited 14 hours ago by Sincerity

[Hojo]

@Agrande I think its because everyone is different. Like you yourself have a specific logical algorithm you are working around. So there is no 1 solution to everyone. Everyone has a different blindspot where the retard lay. A guru is there to point to it. There are specific words someone can say to you to make you awaken. A guru can read and know that and speak them to you.

Edited 14 hours ago by Hojo

[Agrande]

12 minutes ago, Malkom said:

Attempt number two. You don't need a ton of work to grasp this. The irony is that you already know it, you've simply forgotten it, or rather, even put it aside, but you feel it. The ton of work will be needed later, to integrate it into everyday life. Your main problem, as I see it, is that you live in your head; you need to establish contact with your body. You, how should I put it, see the situation incompletely. This is also typical of autistics, when they constantly seek structure and order and the constant repetition of the same rituals. They lack the emotional sphere and the ability to recognize emotions; they rely on intuitive-sensory perception, although both are the same thing; thought and feeling are one and the same. Basically, "turn off your head"—not in the sense of suddenly becoming dumb, in short... I hope you understand, but most likely not. Okay, I'm off to bed. Good luck with your search.

Good advice for socialising tbh. Turned off my head and just got into like social flow states. It’s not very useful for philosophy/spirituality though imho.
 

Damn u also reminded me of that time I was so INTP I was asking myself “what if im autistic what if im autistic?!”  So much so I got an actual test and it came out negative. There’s so much struggle with neurodiverse people I used to think I was just “wired differently” but rlly i’m just more of a thinker i guess