Might decides. Force is paramount to decision-making and thus consciousness.

[BlueOak]

One greater truth I have had to come to terms with is: Might decides. Force is paramount to decision-making and thus consciousness. While I always accepted this, I never integrated it fully and made it a part of who I was.

This is universally true across the planet, and no matter if we want to say we'd not like this, or its more evolved/enlightened/integrated to be otherwise, it's simply the case. That force doesn't have to be physical, although it is most easily demonstrated to be. I feel spiritual communities, by their nature, resist this, and this is in part why the feminine aspect of consciousness has been the dominant one in society for so long. 

With many corrections, we overcorrect, something I loathe about consciousness or humanity in general, that rather than take measured steps, we are forced into large overcorrections, with large fallouts, and then we walk that back to a balance.

[Hojo]

The duality is the fear of being forced upon.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Force has never worked for me in attempting success.

Leverage and wisdom - yes.

Ultimately, I have no control.

 

[UnbornTao]

What do you mean more specifically? Are you talking about making decisions?

If so, you can actually make a decision right now, and it would be a done deal. You've made the decision.

Edited September 19 by UnbornTao

[BlueOak]

5 hours ago, Hojo said:

The duality is the fear of being forced upon.

Of course, and that in turn creates an opposing force, which in turn creates the duality. A better question is: How do you collapse that duality?
 

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Force has never worked for me in attempting success.

Leverage and wisdom - yes.

Ultimately, I have no control.

 

Respectfully, and I realise how hard this is to say in the current climate, but femininity isn't forceful by design. It's precisely the opposite. This is the thread in spiritual circles or conscious communities that I am highlighting. Obviously I need to ground these thoughts more, but I understand a missing dynamic now.
 

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

What do you mean more specifically? Are you talking about making decisions?

If so, you can actually make a decision right now, and it would be a done deal. You've made the decision.

Universally. In everything. There is nothing that physically exists without some kind of force maintaining or creating it, and holding the structure to allow it.

A decision is nothing without some kind of force backing it and structuring its existence. Let's say that force is economic, or social, or physical etc. 
 

[UnbornTao]

59 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Universally. In everything. There is nothing that physically exists without some kind of force maintaining or creating it, and holding the structure to allow it.

A decision is nothing without some kind of force backing it and structuring its existence. Let's say that force is economic, or social, or physical etc. 

I suggest you clarify what it is you are inquiring into - in a grounded way. 

Are you not talking about interaction and effectiveness? If so, why bring up existential matters? Or maybe I'm mistaken. But you don't need these extraneous explanations or stories; you can just make a decision.

Also, let me take a different approach: How do you see 'force'? In your experience, what does decision-making require? 

[BlueOak]

40 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

I suggest you clarify what it is you are inquiring into - in a grounded way. 

Are you not talking about interaction and effectiveness? If so, why bring up existential matters? Or maybe I'm mistaken. But you don't need these extraneous explanations or stories; you can just make a decision.

Also, let me take a different approach: How do you see 'force'? In your experience, what does decision-making require? 

Decision for me requires:

Information: Raw Material, preferably clarified.
Wisdom/Experience: If possible, offering discernment.
Structure: A context within which a movement can be made. A door cannot be opened or closed without a frame. A job, relationship or spiritual path requires form to be interacted with, entered or exited. This is maintained by a force of some kind.
Force: An Indispensable Element. Energy, Currency, Momentum, Movement. The power to actualize what was chosen. Without that force, a decision is inert, it doesn't manifest. Intention and opportunity is nothing without enactment, be that physical, economic, emotional, social etc

Efficiency, influence, and strategy are best reserved for other forums. At the core I am saying decision is a metaphysical act. It creates form and alters being, which structures conscious experience.

I am directly saying force itself is misunderstood. As many communities are driven by trauma-healing (which is very healthy), but it exiles or softens the masculine principle. The ability to pierce illusion, ground, initiate action and provide structure to choice. What is allowed is usually neutered in language and thus in understanding. 

Edited September 19 by BlueOak

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@BlueOak I think defining this better will help.

How do you define force vs energy? 

In addition, I would appreciate you forgetting the fact my avatar and name appears feminine. If I did not have this appearance you would not have responded as such. So, do not 😏 

I know something of force. Experientially. You might say more than most. 

I work in construction. I design doors, hardware, security and structural engineering (to name a small portion). I manage construction of hospitals and science facilities. I suspect I know more of force than you realise.

Edited September 19 by Natasha Tori Maru

[BlueOak]

9 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@BlueOak I think defining this better will help.

How do you define force vs energy? 

In addition, I would appreciate you forgetting the fact my avatar and name appears feminine. If I did not have this appearance you would not have responded as such. So, do not 😏

I've defined force well in the post above yours. Particularly in relation to structure, decision-making and will. Though I am open to expanding the discussion if you'd like to engage more deeply.

On your question, Energy is a field, the raw potential, light and vibration. Force is directional energy, energy given a target or course. Shaped into impact, without force, energy disperses; without energy, force has nothing to do, so they are distinct, and each arises the other.

I will certainly honor your request and respect your profession. Men have varying amounts of the divine feminine in them also, me included, it's not a binary thing or a negative critique to embody degrees of the opposite of what I am describing here. It's just as necessary to the planet to have these energies in balance within all of us. I specifically mentioned it when you said force had never worked for you. But you work in construction, working with literal force, pressure, gravity, resistance etc. You structure force into form. That is the divine masculine principle at work, regardless of gender. The force required to form and maintain a large structure is a perfect example. It's not abstract and easily defined.

[UnbornTao]

On 9/19/2025 at 2:52 PM, BlueOak said:

Decision for me requires:

Information: Raw Material, preferably clarified.
Wisdom/Experience: If possible, offering discernment.
Structure: A context within which a movement can be made. A door cannot be opened or closed without a frame. A job, relationship or spiritual path requires form to be interacted with, entered or exited. This is maintained by a force of some kind.
Force: An Indispensable Element. Energy, Currency, Momentum, Movement. The power to actualize what was chosen. Without that force, a decision is inert, it doesn't manifest. Intention and opportunity is nothing without enactment, be that physical, economic, emotional, social etc

Efficiency, influence, and strategy are best reserved for other forums. At the core I am saying decision is a metaphysical act. It creates form and alters being, which structures conscious experience.

I am directly saying force itself is misunderstood. As many communities are driven by trauma-healing (which is very healthy), but it exiles or softens the masculine principle. The ability to pierce illusion, ground, initiate action and provide structure to choice. What is allowed is usually neutered in language and thus in understanding. 

Make a decision now.

A process, by definition, is something carried out, rather than an existential (metaphysical) aspect of reality. In other words, it is an action or set thereof. We could think of reality as the primary condition that allows the existence of process. What is versus what is done. 

To use your example: obviously, you wouldn't choose to open a 'door' if there were no frame for it; you might instead decide to insert a frame so the door can exist. The doors you open are ones you've already decided to open. And no extraneous explanation or story is necessary for what's essentially a simple physical action.

I'm trying to shift the discussion toward our experience of decision-making.

Edited September 20 by UnbornTao

[Aaron p]

May the force be with you 

Edited September 21 by Aaron p

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@BlueOak

So to sum this up - you are saying force is the cause, energy the result? 

You have inserted a lot of language - which isn't necessary bad - but I felt it did not add to the understanding for me.

Do you consider a decision a force?

I ask because strictly speaking - force is an phenomenon of material reality. It isn't a 'thing' so to speak, more a way to describe how material reality interacts. A decision can FEEL like a force because it sets things in motion. IE the instant we decide, we have 'applied a directional push' to our lives. Before, we were in a potential (energy waiting). After this decision we have committed to a vector - force applied.

But experientially I think it is more - Decision (director, or vector), motivation or will (energy, capacity), action (force, actual push).

With the reasoning above I would argue a decision isn't a force by itself. But it can act as a chooser of the direction for where our force and energy will go....

On 20/09/2025 at 5:18 PM, BlueOak said:

I will certainly honor your request and respect your profession. Men have varying amounts of the divine feminine in them also, me included, it's not a binary thing or a negative critique to embody degrees of the opposite of what I am describing here. It's just as necessary to the planet to have these energies in balance within all of us. I specifically mentioned it when you said force had never worked for you. But you work in construction, working with literal force, pressure, gravity, resistance etc. You structure force into form. That is the divine masculine principle at work, regardless of gender. The force required to form and maintain a large structure is a perfect example. It's not abstract and easily defined.

I say force never worked for me because it was the decision - the wisdom to know when to effect change - that was the mechanism responsible for my success in say, building a Dialysis Centre (a real example of a completed build I worked on). But the decision and energy movement cannot occur without the force needed to 'push'. So they work in tandem to influence reality. This is why I do not think it is any more fundamental than energy or decisions. Especially if we consider energy as 'raw potential'. In addition - forces I work (construction) with have opposing forces. A decision does not carry this equal & opposite mechanism. If I decide to take action, the decision doesn't have an opposing force - it is merely the prior form of the action taking shape. 

All of my work is dealing with the reality of forces! Materials and integrity are the core of building successfully.

And no worries with the above - just pointing out that you shouldn't need to insert the fact you have a Y chromosome into the conversation. You shouldn't dismiss a person or their views because of their form. You only limit yourself - you have no idea in actuality what they have to say or whether it is useful to you. To act like you do know at all, is false.

Edited September 22 by Natasha Tori Maru

[BlueOak]

On 20/09/2025 at 5:35 PM, UnbornTao said:

Make a decision now.

A process, by definition, is something carried out, rather than an existential (metaphysical) aspect of reality. In other words, it is an action or set thereof. We could think of reality as the primary condition that allows the existence of process. What is versus what is done. 

To use your example: obviously, you wouldn't choose to open a 'door' if there were no frame for it; you might instead decide to insert a frame so the door can exist. The doors you open are ones you've already decided to open. And no extraneous explanation or story is necessary for what's essentially a simple physical action.

I'm trying to shift the discussion toward our experience of decision-making.

We can surmise many things in different forms depending on intent. My intent here was to highlight an aspect of life that is still largely unconscious and coming out only in the shadow behaviours of individuals on a mass scale. I could say this is a thought in my mind, I could say its all energy. What I can say with certainty is that decisions usually require more than just a single physical action to have any consequence. The only decisions that (sometimes) don't require force are to stop doing something. 

I can say this with experience because I have made thousands of decisions that went nowhere whatsoever, that I put insufficient force behind, or worse didn't adequately consider the forces that were structuring or resisting the decision I was making. Something everyone is guilty of time to time, and in part because of the ignorance of the principle I am describing.

While you can build every door you enter through, most of the time we are not doing this and even if we are, it is within a greater structure. We live in a world that has many structures and forms that we interact with and decide upon daily. So the experience of decision-making not only requires force but is structured within it.

All this is critical because, without it being known and accepted, it remains expressed (or inverted) in people's shadow or unconscious behaviours. I can highlight this in red pill communities, far-right groups, sovereign citizens, the manosphere, war etc. Both in some of their interactions but also in their reaction from others.

 

21 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@BlueOak

So to sum this up - you are saying force is the cause, energy the result? 

You have inserted a lot of language - which isn't necessary bad - but I felt it did not add to the understanding for me.

Do you consider a decision a force?

I ask because strictly speaking - force is an phenomenon of material reality. It isn't a 'thing' so to speak, more a way to describe how material reality interacts. A decision can FEEL like a force because it sets things in motion. IE the instant we decide, we have 'applied a directional push' to our lives. Before, we were in a potential (energy waiting). After this decision we have committed to a vector - force applied.

But experientially I think it is more - Decision (director, or vector), motivation or will (energy, capacity), action (force, actual push).

With the reasoning above I would argue a decision isn't a force by itself. But it can act as a chooser of the direction for where our force and energy will go....

I say force never worked for me because it was the decision - the wisdom to know when to effect change - that was the mechanism responsible for my success in say, building a Dialysis Centre (a real example of a completed build I worked on). But the decision and energy movement cannot occur without the force needed to 'push'. So they work in tandem to influence reality. This is why I do not think it is any more fundamental than energy or decisions. Especially if we consider energy as 'raw potential'. In addition - forces I work (construction) with have opposing forces. A decision does not carry this equal & opposite mechanism. If I decide to take action, the decision doesn't have an opposing force - it is merely the prior form of the action taking shape. 

All of my work is dealing with the reality of forces! Materials and integrity are the core of building successfully.

And no worries with the above - just pointing out that you shouldn't need to insert the fact you have a Y chromosome into the conversation. You shouldn't dismiss a person or their views because of their form. You only limit yourself - you have no idea in actuality what they have to say or whether it is useful to you. To act like you do know at all, is false.

I agree with your initial assessment on the application. I can decide now to be a spiritual guru, a businessman, or a political activist and then barely take any steps towards it. Without force, I go nowhere whatsoever; thusly to make a decision I have to understand both the force involved and required to make the decision meaningful or the right one. But it critically requires the energy to do so. and direction, as you rightly say.

So i'm not going to say that wisdom isn't important. But I've had wisdom, intelligence, and good information on my side more than once and got nowhere. Force is the critical thing to get anything done. People call me intelligent but I am still broke and single lol (its actually annoying tbh). Without wisdom or intelligence, I think you can make bad choices and still achieve your decisions, taking a longer route just through grit and determination, gaining experience along the way. Its why people say just start, and that's often good advice. Whereas you can be the greatest sage in the world, but without some force somewhere assisting you, you're going to be sitting there alone getting nowhere.

On your gender. We break reality down into labels for ease of reference in what is otherwise a continuous experience of events. I do treat women differently to men, until I know them better, then I treat them as I know them to be. I am a bit softer, gentler, and I am more conscious of giving their emotional reactions more space to breathe. I do this because after 40 years it has worked for me better at a surface level. While with men I am a bit firmer and more forceful which tends to have better results, again until I understand them more. There are, of course, many ways I interact universally with people, but these and other differences stand out. - For example, had you not told me to ignore gender, I would not be postulating this final paragraph to you; i'd just be giving you space to express what needed to be said. (Which is often the far better choice for a man BTW!)

Edited September 22 by BlueOak

[UnbornTao]

On 9/22/2025 at 0:42 PM, BlueOak said:

We can surmise many things in different forms depending on intent. My intent here was to highlight an aspect of life that is still largely unconscious and coming out only in the shadow behaviours of individuals on a mass scale. I could say this is a thought in my mind, I could say its all energy. What I can say with certainty is that decisions usually require more than just a single physical action to have any consequence. The only decisions that (sometimes) don't require force are to stop doing something. 

I can say this with experience because I have made thousands of decisions that went nowhere whatsoever, that I put insufficient force behind, or worse didn't adequately consider the forces that were structuring or resisting the decision I was making. Something everyone is guilty of time to time, and in part because of the ignorance of the principle I am describing.

While you can build every door you enter through, most of the time we are not doing this and even if we are, it is within a greater structure. We live in a world that has many structures and forms that we interact with and decide upon daily. So the experience of decision-making not only requires force but is structured within it.

All this is critical because, without it being known and accepted, it remains expressed (or inverted) in people's shadow or unconscious behaviours. I can highlight this in red pill communities, far-right groups, sovereign citizens, the manosphere, war etc. Both in some of their interactions but also in their reaction from others.

Perhaps a more effective way to approach this investigation is by noticing that everything you end up doing, you intended to do - even when you say you "didn't really want to." When it comes to taking action, intent is the main component. It is essentially the same as the action itself - a concept that generates and co-arises with action. Contrast this with desire, which is the wish for an imagined future scenario to come to pass, without necessarily requiring action. If you did something, you intended to do it. Intent obviously comes prior to the consequences of the action. In your experience, intent shows up as the action. This focus tends to simplify the matter. Stand up and sit again - what made you do that? Notice that concepts like motivation and desire aren't required in order to take action.

Edited September 26 by UnbornTao

[Natasha Tori Maru]

On 22/09/2025 at 9:42 PM, BlueOak said:

So i'm not going to say that wisdom isn't important. But I've had wisdom, intelligence, and good information on my side more than once and got nowhere. Force is the critical thing to get anything done.

We may just end up mutually disagreeing - I still do not think force is the most important/fundamental element. It is part of the method. It still remains that wisdom, intelligence and good information can act towards an informed decision - in which case action is taken to change potential to kinetic (the force). Without the above - wisdom, intelligence, information - a simple force in action with no clear intention acts to increase entropy and not achieve anything. So, I feel it is a combination of energy, wisdom and force - as opposed to one (force) being fundamental

Quote

On your gender. We break reality down into labels for ease of reference in what is otherwise a continuous experience of events. I do treat women differently to men, until I know them better, then I treat them as I know them to be. I am a bit softer, gentler, and I am more conscious of giving their emotional reactions more space to breathe. I do this because after 40 years it has worked for me better at a surface level. While with men I am a bit firmer and more forceful which tends to have better results, again until I understand them more. There are, of course, many ways I interact universally with people, but these and other differences stand out. - For example, had you not told me to ignore gender, I would not be postulating this final paragraph to you; i'd just be giving you space to express what needed to be said. (Which is often the far better choice for a man BTW!)

In retrospect I sort of approached this assuming I would be treated as a disembodied voice making claims in cyberspace: I couldn't expect you to know I am a bit prickly and battle hardened in the idea-dissection arena  And the approach you have with respect to women is an intelligent one - in real life, for sure. It just might not apply on a spiritual forum spearheaded by a brutally candid and blunt leader ! I think I just do not want to you lose out on potentially revelatory conversation due to my avatar and name bringing baggage. And I do not want to lose out, either. I am similar in behavior; many years of life have taught me I can be much more candid with men (which is my natural way), but with women I need to be concerned with what feelings arise and backing off accordingly.