The Narcissist Test is very limited

[trenton]

I have been doing some self-reflection lately as I uncovered various narcissistic traits. I thought of the narcissist test Leo published a couple of years ago. I recalled how I scored very low on the test. However, I recently retook the test and now scored much higher at 17 rather than a low single digit number. I took this test after I had uncovered a ton of shadow material and repressed emotions that spoke to my narcissistic nature. Many of these things were unconscious because they went against my conscious moral reasoning. That said, I would like to describe how I uncovered these narcissistic traits.

I discovered first that I came from a family with a narcissistic system. My father was likely a combination of a narcissist, a sociopath, and psychopath. He was involved in many crimes including fleeing the State to avoid paying child support. I also had a mother with bipolar disorder who also had various narcissistic traits. In these kinds of systems, it is usually the eldest sibling who develops to most narcissistic traits. In this case it would be my older sister. I looked deeply into her behavior and I found that she matched many of the patterns of a vulnerable narcissist. She was covert, used textbook narcissistic tactics like DARVO, used various projections in terms of my motives and behaviors, identified as the golden child which is common, and did many other things as well. Narcissism usually is the result of adverse childhood experiences. In my case I was not old enough to remember the day Dad left and abandoned us. My sister likely was old enough to remember this and realize the abandonment, becoming a common wound at the core of vulnerable narcissism.

Although I did not develop narcissistic traits in the same way as my sister, there were other experiences which shattered my sense of self worth and triggered the creation of a compensatory identity. In this case it was related to child sexual abuse. The therapists I worked with tend to label what happened as sexual abuse, although the situation may be more complicated as I have fragmented memories from the incident. This alternative traumatic experience which shattered my sense of self-worth became an alternative adverse childhood experience which triggered various narcissistic patterns.

Many of the traits I developed became core to my character and shaped how I moved through life significantly. The problem is that my narcissistic patterns were much more covert and hidden compared to what narcissistic tests typically look for. Part of the reason they were thoroughly hidden is because they went against my moral compass and thus became hidden even to me. My narcissistic tests look for overt grandiosity or a lack of empathy, but these obvious and classic narcissistic patterns did not manifest in the same way in my case. The main reason is because in my case I actually did have genuine empathy and genuine moral development which prevented me from exploiting others and manipulating them which is commonly looked for in such tests.

The most alarming narcissistic trait I discovered was that beneath my surface level empathy and caring for others, deep down there was part of me that wanted others to experience my pain. Sometimes this would take the form of intrusive violent fantasies including rape fantasies. I did not understand what was happening to me so I tried to push past it. There was moral OCD around these thought patterns and the fear of becoming a sexual predator had I acted on such thoughts. My therapists reassured me that I was a good person, but they missed something deeper and more disturbing at play. Deep down part of me had desires similar to actual child predators that my psyche was struggling with. Sometimes child predators who were sexually abused might want others to feel as powerless and degraded as they were. In this case such desires obviously went against my morals so these desires were deeply suppressed and hidden from me. Nobody would suspect that I would feel this way deep down because of my surface appearance of genuine empathy and moral development, but in reality the source of my intense anxiety was wanting to victimize and degrade others as I was even though my rational mind knew it was wrong and did not want that.

Rather than bein outwardly grandiose, I sought internal compensatory mechanisms. In this case I would not brag to others, but I would be seeking a higher purpose or life purpose to justify my existence despite my suffering. The problem is that due to the shattered self esteem, I was easily overtaken by megalomania in searching for things to make existence worth it. My life purpose goals became inflated and unrealistic because nothing would be enough to compensate the wounds I was carrying. This became a source of both intellectual crusading and a savior complex. I was conscious enough not to brag or boast about intelligence or the savior complex because I knew how it would come off, but I was not conscious enough to not operate under these feelings. It was as if although I rationally understood the problem of these things, my complexes would have a mind or agenda of their own which I could not consciously override. This led to a sense of moral and intellectual superiority beneath my surface level intelligence and morality which was hidden from others pretty well most of the time.

The megalomania I was operating was driven by intense anxiety around existential questions that were left unresolved. I would be fearful that deep down my life didn't actually matter much. I wanted my existence to be felt and for my suffering to be meaningful. This led to a martyr complex which is common in many trauma survivors. The narcissistic pattern is that my suffering somehow made me special or noble in some way. This led to a bind in which part of me genuinely valued goodness, truth, and love, but I valued these things for the wrong reasons as they were ultimately to defend my shattered self-esteem rather than coming from a place of abundance. It became another source of proving as I came to believe my value was degraded by being a bad person deserving of suffering and shame. This created a means of hiding my narcissistic traits because I became highly self-critical rather than overtly entitled as a consequence of trauma which in turn made the narcissistic patterns easy to miss. In reality the savior complex was rooted in a fundamental desire to have others beneath me, making it not much difference from wanting to be a dictator who dominates others beneath me, hence my world domination fantasies as well.

Another interesting point is that when I did accidentally harm someone, it triggered intense shame and guilt. It is because I was trying to hide the wound of feeling fundamentally broken. The result is that internally the harm would become more about my guilt and shame rather than the harm caused. However, on the outside I took responsibility for the harm caused in order to repair the image. This is different from most narcissistic patterns which use classic DARVO tactics in which they defensively reverse victim of offender and make you the problem. This surface appearance of outwardly taking responsibility created another layer of plausible deniability in terms of narcissistic traits. There is a subtle distinction between moral action because I don't want to feel bad versus moral action because I don't want others to feel bad. In a subtle way my moral action was about me.

Of course there was much more I discovered. I could elaborate on it some other time. What do you think of these discoveries? Do you think researching narcissism and honest self-reflection might be more reliable than these tests? I think honest self-reflection is better than these tests because it made these patterns more conscious rather than hidden.

[Hojo]

I agree that test is terrible. Its the most limited bland test I have ever seen and for it to be considered science is a joke. Any measurement of narcissism by that test should not be taken seriously. Its like a burger king quiz.

Its like 5 questions reworded and repeated 3 or 4 times.

Edited September 9 by Hojo

[trenton]

@Hojo I did notice that problem when I took it. Some of the prompts were unclear and I could have plausibly picked either and it would make sense in my mind. This is the problem with self evaluation because we often misinterpret our own behaviors and why we do them. We make stories that seem plausible without seeing the unconscious material. That's why I sometimes felt that both could be true at the same time.

This is kind of a paradox in self reflection because how do you know you can trust your thoughts about who you are? It was like certain insights could only emerge and become conscious once I cultivated unconditional self love regardless of any darkness I may harbor.

[Hojo]

@trentonYea its basically are you narcissit yes or no?

Liking being the center of attention isnt inherently narssasist.Sometimes it feels good sometimes it dosent. And to these questions its either one way or the other so just yes or no.

if this is taken as scientific science is a joke.

[trenton]

To my memory, Leo appeared to treat this test as if it were proof that he was not a narcissist. According to my research on narcissism, he likely does have some narcissistic traits although it is hard to say to what degree and this test is not reliable. This also highlights to paradox of defensiveness where obviously a narcissist would not want to admit it because it seems undesirable, but at the same time there could be honest denial of exhibiting the traits to the extent that is claimed. At the end of the day, narcissistic traits do not make you a bad person because they are survival strategies that develop from dysfunctional families due to children not feeling loved or special.

I understand that narcissistic traits typically come about from adverse childhood experiences, especially in dysfunctional families. If Leo's father was someone like a conman for example, then his father likely had some narcissistic behaviors. Children often learn these patterns of behavior from their parents in dysfunctional systems.

A few narcissistic patterns seen in Leo in some cases might be things like holding his insights in a way that might make him seem special compared to others. This would be spiritual ego which happens automatically and beyond conscious control if it is rooted in a need to feel special. It is not something that can be consciously turned off if it is happening to you.

That said, if Leo really is extremely conscious, then he probably has worked through a lot of shadow material which would be the root cause of narcissistic traits and behaviors. However, narcissism isn't something that can be eliminated entirely. It can be reduced or channeled in more productive ways, but it can't be eliminated completely.

It seems to take a lot of unconditional self love and consciousness in order to allow these narcissistic patterns to be seen, understood, and accepted regardless of whether it is socially acceptable or not. Most narcissists fail at this because their self-esteem is too unstable to begin so they can't face this darkness within themselves. The result is that most narcissists never change and they continue with the same childhood survival strategy that will never bring them happiness and fulfillment because the entire complex is based on the lie that they are unworthy of love while they are trying to lie themselves into an alternate reality of grandiosity in which they appear to be loved, but it is still hollow.