Reality vs. Consciousness (Chicken-Egg Problem)

[gettoefl]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

any definition is duality, it's absolutely obvious and a closure, I don't understand how's possible that no one understands what non duality means and can't really collapse the duality. It's a very strange fact.  Non duality is extremely simple, and is the first step to the totality 

 

I blame Leo. We all want to ride the Leo coattails and say we too know. But me I agree with you all the way. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:24 PM by gettoefl

[Xonas Pitfall]

23 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

any definition is duality, it's absolutely obvious and a closure, I don't understand how's possible that no one understands what non duality means and can't really collapse the duality. It's a very strange fact. 

I think my issue is that I can't tell if this is just a process within my mind (or other conscious agents' minds) and not so "relevant" beyond explaining that. To give an example:

A neural network starts from a random function, and it slowly starts making biases, distinctions, weighted functions, and gradient descent to map out whatever it is being fed as input. However, it's not like that neural network (although it is an "infinite mind" in a sense, since it’s diving and uniting itself in infinite ways, infinite times) is able to impact reality in any independent way beyond its definition.  Sure, it's a universal pattern of how its mind works and how all of our minds work, but there is nothing to suggest this is how it works outside of the "minds" or consciousness, just like how a neural network or a computer processor can divide, analyze, and comprehend in a million infinite ways. But that doesn’t mean it’s anything near the way a human mind works. There is a significant qualitative difference in experience. But if you were a neural network, you’d never know.

Sure, a computer chip can realize, "Oh, I'm just making decisions! And if I stop making binary 1s and 0s, I’ll cease to exist! Yay! :D" This means "I am God 100%", but that computer chip would have missed out on important, qualitatively different experiences from its human chip creator, outside the reality of its binary process.

It’s not like if a human were to realize, "Oh, I’m just making distinctions!" they could playfully play with mental distinctions, let alone physical ones. Leo once said that if he wanted to, he could make his hand a tentacle, but he didn’t want to during the trip because he’s attached to his hand. Okay. Then, can he make some physical changes and bend and manipulate distinctions of things he’s not so attached to? He could give himself abs, perhaps even a slight eye color change, or solve gut health issues, right? Again, this feels like a very crucial element that gets ignored. We’re doing science, but proper science here. If I concluded that mind and reality are the same, then testing this very distinction is imperative.

I understand the concept: "Oh, you’re in such a high state that you don’t care about giving yourself a billion dollars or proving anything to anyone!" But he clearly still is teaching; he clearly still cares about putting his words and understanding the truth in a proper manner. This feels to me like one of the primary things to test for reality vs. mind non-duality beliefs. Because if I can, in a super high state, bring into reality something that could’ve never happened normally (and that I controlled for, not something the trip blurred my mind with), that’d truly be impactful.

Am I making sense? It kind of feels like you’re just defining patterns of how the mind functions, and then if you can remove some of these distinctions in the mind, experiences would change. But the fact that your internal state cannot impact the external beyond your ordinary human limitations, at least it hasn’t been recorded to do so, leaves me confused as to why there aren’t better proofs of this, as it seems like the first thing to explore if you want to spread consciousness to people. And not in a way that looks like a magician performing with sleight of hand.

And if you say, “Oh, well, it’s difficult to bring upon a whole pyramid with your mind!” I’d ask, why? According to your metaphysics, God has no meaningful difference between spawning a kangaroo and building an Empire State Building; it’s all imagination for him. So that means you, as a human in God consciousness, should be able to at least spawn some water or fire intentionally in your highest state of consciousness. And you don’t have to do this because of ego, pride, or anything, but just because you want to play and explore consciousness more, for the beauty of consciousness.

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

And if you say, “Oh, well, it’s difficult to bring upon a whole pyramid with your mind!” I’d ask, why? According to your metaphysics, God has no meaningful difference between spawning a kangaroo and building an Empire State Building; it’s all imagination for him. So that means you, as a human in God consciousness, should be able to at least spawn some water or fire intentionally in your highest state of consciousness. And you don’t have to do this because of ego, pride, or anything, but just because you want to play and explore consciousness more, for the beauty of consciousness.

It's impossible because the flow of reality is God, not you, the apparent center. The apparent center or self is a stable structure that occurs in reality, creating the duality of subject and object, of a splitting of reality.

So, everything that happens, down to the last quantum vibration in a neuronal synapse, is reality being, it's the will of reality. It's not that reality says, "I'm going to create that synapse." It's that synapse that is the will and intelligence of reality, directly. It's God. God isn't behind the scenes; it is exactly what it is. So, you, as self, are a structure of reality that wants to levitate your car keys with your mind, and that's exactly what the flow of reality is. If you collapse the self, you become totally the flow, and the flow of reality has no will independent of the flow. Its will is the flow; it's absolutely direct; the separation is zero.

And everything that moves do in relation with the whole in motion, everything is synchronized perfectly, with zero deviation, the flow of existence is a whole moving relatively to itself in absolute perfection, without the minimum slightly deviation, because anything that is not perfect synchroniced simply isn't. Movement is relative to itself, then the absolute intelligence arises by the fact of the inevitable perfection, it is the inevitable perfection 

Edited Thursday at 01:06 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

On 30/7/2025 at 3:24 PM, gettoefl said:

I blame Leo. We all want to ride the Leo coattails and say we too know. But me I agree with you all the way. 

Well, it can be said that reality is consciousness, or that consciousness is reality. I'm not saying otherwise; what I'm saying is that the idea that reality is consciousness leads to a misunderstanding. First, we would have to completely deconstruct "consciousness," reaching the conclusion that what we call consciousness is reality structured from a self-reflective center that "perceives." But "perceiving" is the act of grasping the exterior from a center, and this is the misunderstanding.

But the material from which perception is made is pure reality. There is no difference between perception and reality in substance, only in form, since perception implies two.

I'm not saying anything against the ontology that affirms that reality = consciousness, except that it needs to be explained thoroughly. The point is not defining the reality but finding a mental conceptual structure that allows openess. I think it's a fascinating matter, it's a mistake that people get defensive if you argue instead taking the opportunity to develop their frame and get deeper, we are constructing not defending a position, that's why we like talking, to grow together

Edited Thursday at 02:11 PM by Breakingthewall

[Xonas Pitfall]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's impossible because the flow of reality is God, not you, the apparent center. The apparent center or self is a stable structure that occurs in reality, creating the duality of subject and object, of a splitting of reality.

Hmm... how so? The logic is that everything is God and holds the unity and all-encompassing consciousness at the center. The only thing dividing us from full omnipotence is our level of consciousness. Once you are more closely merged, you are the center of the whole universe, because, in essence, you are God. So theoretically, if one's consciousness is raised enough, they should be able to bend reality (at least to some extent, given that you are still trying to retain your human body). But some level of higher controlled change should be possible.

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Hmm... how so? The logic is that everything is God and holds the unity and all-encompassing consciousness at the center. The only thing dividing us from full omnipotence is our level of consciousness. Once you are more closely merged, you are the center of the whole universe, because, in essence, you are God. So theoretically, if one's consciousness is raised enough, they should be able to bend reality (at least to some extent, given that you are still trying to retain your human body). But some level of higher controlled change should be possible.

 just my vision now, maybe I change it if I go deeper:  If you open your perception completely, you realize that you are the flow of reality, flowing absolutely perfectly. It's not that you become more powerful, but rather that you disappear as self and you are the flow. Then you realize that the flow is absolute will and intelligence. You cannot modify the flow because you are the flow. That is, you are not outside observing the flow and deciding how it should be. It's something that works on infinite levels and is exactly perfect in its flow because it is. If you were to think: Hmm, I should change this. That very thought would be part of the flow. There is only the flow. Existence is not the result of the flow; it is the flow, it's absolutely direct. It's as if it were an infinite mechanism in perpetual motion, flowing over itself in perfect synchrony.

The fact that it's unlimited means that every minimal movement has an infinite echo. Nothing that isn't absolutely synchronized happens because "happening" means relative movement, and relative is relative to the whole. Therefore, the highest "level of consciousness" that this mystic we're talking about can access is to disappear completely and become one with the flow, without desire or direction, because any desire means separation. Just apparent separation because that desire is the flow, nothing could be separated, but closes your perception