The self

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

"Everything" is empty, no substance and doesn't have it's own reality. Yes, nothing is being everything and appearing as and can be full or empty depending on how you want to look at it. There are no potentials, it's immediate and appears as...potential suggests time and space. It is also every seeming potential. So, potential is nothing appearing as potential and is not full of it.

It's not nothing, it's beyond that distinction. Let's see death is beyond consciousness. It is not something experienced, nor a state observed: it is what remains when all framework disappears. It is not becoming, it is not form,  nor relation. It is the absolute without structure. And yet, it is reality itself. Not in the sense of a empty nothingness, but as the bottomless essence of all that exists. This openness cannot be thought, nor sustained from form, it's out of the conciousness, but you can open yourself to it and surrender to it, then the self can dissapear for a moment, the perception becomes irrelevant, it's beyond perception, it's not nothing that you perceive but you are. 

Edited July 11 by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

This openness cannot be thought, nor sustained from form, it's out of the conciousness. But it can open in experience as something so radical that the self disappears for a moment. What remains is not death in a negative sense, but that which is beyond form and consciousness: absolute reality.

I'm not sure anything arises from anything, but I do agree there's an openness that is possible to allow for the sense of self to "open up" or see things not as object/subject, but it happens all on it's own and without a cause or an effect and is not done by anyone but the body naturally opens to this.

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then there is no something or nothing: only that. And that is you, not as form, but as total reality without limit.

You'll always seem stuck if you insist on a "you". That's where you're stuck at and keep thinking there's something to do like surrender or open up. If you can just drop all that, a revealing might happen where the self is illusory and all just is and nothing to do because this is already it.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

 

 

1 minute ago, Princess Arabia said:

You'll always seem stuck if you insist on a "you". That's where you're stuck at and keep thinking there's something to do like surrender or open up. If you can just drop all that, a revealing might happen where the self is illusory and all just is and nothing to do because this is already it.

why illusory? The absolute is the essence of the reality, but now a self is happening. There is something to do, you have to breathe for example. Why do you call that illusion? It's a reality from this perspective. The absolute is not in opposition to the relative, is the essence of the relative.

[VeganAwake]

It doesn't matter if there's an experience of a self or as everything or as nothing.

It doesn't mean or charge anything. There's no value in anything 

Reality is already itself 

And it doesn't matter if reality is experienced in any certain way or at all

Literally nothing matters in anyway at all, whatsoever.

It's already complete whole & perfect because it's everything.......it's not perfect because of certain reasons........it perfect because it's everything 

❤️ 

[Princess Arabia]

On 7/10/2025 at 8:21 PM, Breakingthewall said:

 

why illusory? The absolute is the essence of the reality, but now a self is happening. There is something to do, you have to breathe for example. Why do you call that illusion? It's a reality from this perspective. The absolute is not in opposition to the relative, is the essence of the relative.

I don't call the breath an illusion. The body is not an illusion. You are. There is no you breathing. You are not the Absolute. There is only the Absolute. The body breathes, you don't.

[kbone]

On 7/10/2025 at 7:21 PM, Breakingthewall said:

 

why illusory? The absolute is the essence of the reality, but now a self is happening. There is something to do, you have to breathe for example. Why do you call that illusion? It's a reality from this perspective. The absolute is not in opposition to the relative, is the essence of the relative.

The myth of Narcissus expresses the illusion of being obsessed with the image in the reflection of the pool (i.e., mind), not at one with/as the Source of the image. The apparent image is always changing/impermanent, while Source doesn't change and has always BEEN. As such, the delusion of only identifying as the image is problematic. "Still identified" as the image, and only imagining/assuming being the Source is also problematic. Realization unlocks the fundamental duality at odds with itself, caught in the paradox.... in the mind. Simples...

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, kbone said:

The myth of Narcissus expresses the illusion of being obsessed with the image in the reflection of the pool (i.e., mind), not at one with/as the Source of the image. The apparent image is always changing/impermanent, while Source doesn't change and has always BEEN. As such, the delusion of only identifying as the image is problematic. "Still identified" as the image, and only imagining/assuming being the Source is also problematic. Realization unlocks the fundamental duality at odds with itself, caught in the paradox.... in the mind. Simples...

You didn't understand what I want to express. if you really have any doubt I'm glad to get deep in the point.

[kbone]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

You didn't understand what I want to express. if you really have any doubt I'm glad to get deep in the point.

Doubt about what?

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, kbone said:

Doubt about what?

About the topic of the thread. What you said has no relationship with it. Then I thought that you didn't understand it. It was about the self, how the self, the energetic structure that reality creates to function as a human is as real as a stone or a plant. Why is a mistake saying that the ego is an illusion. I know that in Buddhism and neo advaita philosophy it's like dogma, but it's obviously a mistake, a duality. Why the ego is illusion and "the source ' is real? The ego is a form of the source, same than a Galaxy. 

[gettoefl]

29 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

About the topic of the thread. What you said has no relationship with it. Then I thought that you didn't understand it. It was about the self, how the self, the energetic structure that reality creates to function as a human is as real as a stone or a plant. Why is a mistake saying that the ego is an illusion. I know that in Buddhism and neo advaita philosophy it's like dogma, but it's obviously a mistake, a duality. Why the ego is illusion and "the source ' is real? The ego is a form of the source, same than a Galaxy. 

Is a piece of a jigsaw useful and valuable? On its own it may be shapely and colorful but it's meaningless. Isolated it sits in a box ready for the scrap heap at any moment, right? But put together with all its other pieces it makes a lovely picture. Same as ego. Illusion is ill you shun. There too is wellness you seek. The wellness is better right? The wellness does not suffer, is not miserable, and does not die. Ego is an inferior state, a temporary blight on the landscape, a sick disease-ridden pest, any day fit for the scrap heap. But wait, there is something better when all the long lost limbs are gathered together and assemble as one, a superlative symphony in the making. So purpose is to jump from the one to the other. And this is eminently manageable. And this is the work.

[kbone]

43 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

About the topic of the thread. What you said has no relationship with it. Then I thought that you didn't understand it. It was about the self, how the self, the energetic structure that reality creates to function as a human is as real as a stone or a plant. Why is a mistake saying that the ego is an illusion. I know that in Buddhism and neo advaita philosophy it's like dogma, but it's obviously a mistake, a duality. Why the ego is illusion and "the source ' is real? The ego is a form of the source, same than a Galaxy. 

I just offered a Greek story of Narcissus to further contemplate and clear up the 'idea' of the self an image/'illusory'/changing/morphing. As such, the ego could be considered a mask (i.e., In ancient Rome, the word persona (Latin) or prosopon (πρόσωπον; Ancient Greek) originally referred to the masks worn by actors on stage. The various masks represented the various "personae" in the stage play.). I am not denying that there is a sense of/memory of self from which we act in this world. I play my part in this amazing drama... consciously, in/as Truth. But it is the reflection in the mind that makes it appear (in/as Source). I might add 'to' Source, which would give rise to the fundamental duality at play. The more I remain conscious of where the general tension of existence arises from, the more there's TPTPAU, and more immediately available. You've alluded to the EXACT same thing.

I am not a Buddhist, a Zen dude, a neo advaitin, a holier-than-thou character, or the narcisisst you seem to hope me to be (notice that the labels keep changing/morphing, too). That's the image arising in your mind about who or what you think (hope?) I am, what you think I'm defending, or how I might be trying to talk down to you. I am saying, whatever is the Source of all this reflecting happening in the mind is what 'we' actually ARE. The movements as mind, evidently, appear to be quite different based on how this convo continues to unfold. I am also expressing what appears to be happening in the bifurcating mind. The strange thing is, I continue to agree with a lot of what you are sharing, and as I share very similar ideas/expressions, but perhaps emphasize aspects of certain things more. That, in turn, prompts very negative labels to arise in the mind, and then they are caste as part of the convo. I'm starting to think you might even crucify me if you were given the chance. 

The mind is a tool, not the master.

The only real difference is that you claim to know a LOT more than I do, and I'd argue that most of that 'knowledge' is actually belief, but maybe it is a language thing. I question most everything that bubbles up in mind, especially in existential Truth talk.

I should probably stop. I'll bow out.

Edited Tuesday at 11:54 AM by kbone

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, gettoefl said:

There too is wellness you seek

I'm not seeking wellness, I already live in the civilization of wellness, I'm seeking depth. 

[gettoefl]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

I'm not seeking wellness, I already live in the civilization of wellness, I'm seeking depth. 

You're good suffering all the days of your life?

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, kbone said:

The only real difference is that you claim to know a LOT more than I do

No, I took a piece of that paragraph and I've looked for uncoherence and pointed them out. It's not a question of knowing more or less, but of detecting what isn't coherent. It's not a question of volume, but of structure.

[kbone]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, I took a piece of that paragraph and I've looked for uncoherence and pointed them out. It's not a question of knowing more or less, but of detecting what isn't coherent. It's not a question of volume, but of structure.

What? Pointed out where?

 

I'll check back later. Busy today.

Edited Tuesday at 11:57 AM by kbone

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

You're good suffering all the days of your life?

I use to have a good time almost always. I enjoy living, sleeping, walking on street , working , meeting people, looking the reality, trying to understand, meditating as deep as I can, doing sports, projecting ideas to make money, the hot of the summer, anything. Since I'm not sick and im not in prison there is not big suffering. The main point is learning to don't expect too much of the people, anyone can give what can give, then you can navigate in the world quite good. In fact this world is a very interesting adventure, very complex, trying to understand this reality is a great challenge. Would be different if I have a serious sickness of course, then, let's see. 

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I use to have a good time almost always. I enjoy living, sleeping, walking on street , working , meeting people, looking the reality, trying to understand, meditating as deep as I can, doing sports, projecting ideas to make money, the hot of the summer, anything. Since I'm not sick and im not in prison there is not big suffering. The main point is learning to don't expect too much of the people, anyone can give what can give, then you can navigate in the world quite good. In fact this world is a very interesting adventure, very complex, trying to understand this reality is a great challenge. Would be different if I have a serious sickness of course, then, let's see. 

Let me phrase it differently. You are not of the opinion that human existence is misery, deceit and heartache? You believe it's completely possible to die happy, fulfilled and satisfied? You think this is indeed your likely destiny?

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Let me phrase it differently. You are not of the opinion that human existence is misery, deceit and heartache? You believe it's completely possible to die happy, fulfilled and satisfied? You think this is indeed your likely destiny?

Of course, and that opinion is the key that closes. 

Look, you read Acim and don't realize you're choosing the good and rejecting the bad? If you want enlightenment, you have to make a difficult move. You have to say with absolute sincerity: Give me pain, give me torture, give me children impaled in front of their mothers. Break my heart and shatter it. I open myself to it. I take the cup and drink its contents to the bottom without hesitation. I surrender myself to crucifixion, to total pain, to total loneliness, to total humiliation, to indescribable torture. 

But of course, some seconds later I think: no no, please, wtf?? I was joking, no way, I don't want that shit.

But you have to accept it in your heart at least for a moment, to be one with the whole. If not you are always two. You don't need to do this move all time, just once, but absolutely true. It's an energetic movement. 

From an unlimited perspective it's the same being a king or a dwarf selling by his mother to be tortured in a circus of psychopaths. Both are, that's everything. It's difficult to see from the human perspective. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:53 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

52 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Of course, and that opinion is the key that closes. 

Look, you read Acim and don't realize you're choosing the good and rejecting the bad? If you want enlightenment, you have to make a difficult move. You have to say with absolute sincerity: Give me pain, give me torture, give me children impaled in front of their mothers. Break my heart and shatter it. I open myself to it. I take the cup and drink its contents to the bottom without hesitation. I surrender myself to crucifixion, to total pain, to total loneliness, to total humiliation, to indescribable torture. 

But of course, some seconds later I think: no no, please, wtf?? I was joking, no way, I don't want that shit.

But you have to accept it in your heart at least for a moment, to be one with the whole. If not you are always two. You don't need to do this move all time, just once, but absolutely true. It's an energetic movement. 

From an unlimited perspective it's the same being a king or a dwarf selling by his mother to be tortured in a circus of psychopaths. Both are, that's everything. It's difficult to see from the human perspective. 

You're not choosing out of the good and the bad. You're choosing between the patently inferior and the supremely infinite which your eyes are designed to hide from you. And you don't reject or deny or resist or oppose. You see it and you say smilingly, this isn't shit. It is nothing to me. It has no effect on me in any way. Be as brutal as barbaric as butchering as you please. It is water off a duck's back. Reason is, I know the substance. I know that I orchestrated all this to trick myself into getting triggered here. It is a self-perpetuating game. Until I stop playing along. Then it has no power. Then the good stuff starts to happen and I start to see what I am and how you and I are not two but one. I have let hell slip away and I can start enjoying heaven for a while.

Edited Tuesday at 04:32 PM by gettoefl