What is meaning?

[zurew]

43 minutes ago, zurew said:

Some people are okay with that kind of life, others arent - and im not sure whether everyone can be okay with it or not (again going back to my issue with the changing of preferences and intuitions)

For example could that Zen monk find being a rapist or a serial killer just as meaningful as being a monk or a teacher?

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

For example could that Zen monk find being a rapist or a serial killer just as meaningful as being a monk or a teacher?

People who use violence to empower themselves do so out of a place of lack, a need to complete themselves, anger over past trauma and humiliation, and a reaffirmation of narcissistic structures. Supposedly, a truly Zen monk would have left these energetic structures behind.

[zurew]

50 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

People who use violence to empower themselves do so out of a place of lack, a need to complete themselves, anger over past trauma and humiliation, and a reaffirmation of narcissistic structures. Supposedly, a truly Zen monk would have left these energetic structures behind.

The point isnt that he would necessarily choose those extreme and violent things, the point is to challenge the idea that it would be just as meaningful/meaningless to him.

If the idea is that one can have complete power over what meaning one attaches to things, then it shouldnt be an issue to be a rapist or a serial killer  ,because you can choose how things strikes you and or you can have a mindstate completely detached from what you do and what happens to you.

So if you have two people: one is enlightened and in presence mode and the other isn't enlightened and both are forced to rape people every day and to eat shit every day - there is a high chance that one would be miserable and highly suicidal, but what about the monk? Could the monk maintain a blank mindstate and would the monk (since he is completely present) find the whole thing just as blank and devoid of meaning as if he would solve world hunger?

Or would the monk have the ability to find solving world hunger to be horrible and atrocious and being a rapist to be highly meaningful and positive?

 

 

And im not talking about a situation where your mind completely detaches from the situation as a defense mechanism so that you don't need to live through the horrible things that you go through or you don't need to remember the horrible things you did  - im talking about being completely present and living through all moments.

Edited July 19 by zurew

[Breakingthewall]

@zurew well said , this demonstrates the obviousness that while from an unlimited perspective everything is the same, from the perspective of form everything has an infinite meaning, everything starts a chain of infinite cause and effect relationships, then the monk would perceive that each breath, each energetic vibration that produces a thought reverberates in eternity, and from the relational node that he is, only openness, synchrony and fluidity would arise, since that would be its nature, it's structure.

Violence is a kind or relational energy that happens in reality, but you could say that it's low vibration. The monk would operate from higher vibration and the result would be armony. It's not that he choose armony, it's that his structure is that and what emanates from that equalized structure is harmony. It's not "better", it's equalized, another level of existence

Edited July 19 by Breakingthewall

[UnbornTao]

@zurew 

It's all survival-based. To use an analogy, survival is the kernel of your operating system - your self. It's not an extraneous or trivial matter. Life is survival; we just prefer the nicer-sounding term. What use would "meaning" have otherwise?

I've noticed we've been speaking about two related but distinct domains or applications:

1. meaning as it's experienced in the course of living, and
2. the meaning of life.

"The monk" is just a label. She's a person who "finds" meaning in whatever resonates with her. As an individual, she can do - and identify with - all kinds of stuff - but none of it changes the fact that life and self are without inherent meaning. Still, within this context, she'll continue operating from a meaning paradigm. You can stop generating meaning in your life, but it's always temporary. For example, realizing this doesn't stop you from halting at a red light. You still interpret signs and signals; you still deeply care about your life. You still live and want to keep living - therefore, meaning will be operative. In that sense, it seems unavoidable to a certain extent.

Historically, there have been enlightened Chinese warriors - men who fought and killed, yet also studied sutras, meditated, wrote poetry, wished to end all sentient beings' suffering, and what have you. Just an example.

A better analogy might be a video game. Within the game, there are enemies, goals, obstacles, story-lines - and to progress, the character must act. You can imagine all sorts of characters and villains, each with their own backstory and behavior. Just like us, they assign meaning to situations based on survival and progression. Not everything goes. Actions have consequences. If someone throws rocks at you, it's likely going to be interpreted as bad and as something to be avoided because it threatens one's physical well-being.

This gives rise to a kind of internal logic or "rules" of meaning within the game: "does this contribute to my self-survival or not?" Every character will answer that slightly differently. The player is free to assign meaning - but the game still has structure. It has rules and consequences. That design shapes how meaning unfolds within the game.

Still, the game is the game. So what does it mean? What is it for?

You can make the game mean anything: a path to evolve your skills, build community, pass the time, or get educated. You, as the player, are both independent of the game and embedded in it. So you're also bound by its rules - if you want to play it as it is.

Existentially, it is without ultimate meaning - because meaning is not existential. The game just is. Its "meaning" is its being. The meaning of the game is that it exists. Or, to put it differently, "it is because it is." 

I've just realized: it's easy to conflate something having purpose with it being meaningful. It might be worth exploring that distinction more carefully.

Maybe the real issue is that we haven't yet grasped what meaning is. Most of what we've been doing is exchanging ideas - engaging intellectually. That's useful, but it doesn't quite touch meaning itself. That's why it can be helpful to design practical exercises - to examine meaning in a more grounded, experiential way.

In terms of life, what might be needed are a few enlightenments into its nature. But that may not arrive immediately, so… best to keep contemplating.

And just for fun, a question I once heard (can't recall where):

What's the meaning of a toaster floating around in outer space?

Edited Tuesday at 12:11 AM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

Meaning is something that is imposed on something for it to represent something else

[UnbornTao]

42 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Meaning is something that is imposed on something for it to represent something else

I'd say assigned or added, but I like that! 

meaning: a charged interpretation made on top of or after the existence of some thing to orient the behavior of one's self and one's relationship to that thing, in a way that aids self-survival - is another definition that came to mind.

Not sure if it is accurate or tells the whole story, but I felt cute. 

Edited July 20 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

13 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

I'd say assigned or added, but I like that! 

A charged interpretation made on top of the existence of things to orient the behavior of one's self - is another that came to mind. Not sure if it is accurate or tells the whole story, but I felt cute. 

Thanks!

Id say yours is decent too because it sure guides a lot of our behaviors. I guess that’s kinda where the potential value lies in this contemplation, seeing how it connects to our lives

[Sugarcoat]

It can be hard to distinguish meaning from labelling and identifying or even judging.

For example if you say Oreo is a kind of cookie. You’re labelling/identifying Oreo as a cookie. You’re not saying that Oreo MEANS cookie. 
 

If you say war is bad, you’re not saying war MEANS bad, you’re labelling/identifying/judging war as bad. 
 

Meaning seems to be when something has to do with something that it is NOT. For example the sound of the alarm means I have to wake up. Meanwhile in these above examples they have to do with identifying things as they are 

There might be flaws in this point I’m open to that

Edited July 20 by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

[UnbornTao]

On 7/20/2025 at 7:45 PM, UnbornTao said:

Characters in a video game may be a better analogy

Whatever the self is attached to gives it meaning. But does it have to be attached to those particular things? Not necessarily - it can attach or identify itself with all kinds of things.

Another perspective: at the end of the day, do we really care what the meaning of life is? We seem to simply go about the business of living, and the meaning appears to underlie the activities we engage in.

From yet another view, we might say everyone's purpose is ego survival, and the meaning - perhaps - to be happy. People already seem to live their lives assigning to them the meaning they want, even though meaning isn't intrinsic.

Edited Wednesday at 07:04 PM by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

20 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Thanks!

Id say yours is decent too because it sure guides a lot of our behaviors. I guess that’s kinda where the potential value lies in this contemplation, seeing how it connects to our lives

Sure, thanks.

20 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

It can be hard to distinguish meaning from labelling and identifying or even judging.

For example if you say Oreo is a kind of cookie. You’re labelling/identifying Oreo as a cookie. You’re not saying that Oreo MEANS cookie. 
 

If you say war is bad, you’re not saying war MEANS bad, you’re labelling/identifying/judging war as bad. 
 

Meaning seems to be when something has to do with something that it is NOT. For example the sound of the alarm means I have to wake up. Meanwhile in these above examples they have to do with identifying things as they are 

There might be flaws in this point I’m open to that

Maybe in this discussion it'd be like asking: What does a cookie mean? Or thinking of the cookie as a good sweet. We'd have to have a cookie awakening.  

"Bad" is essentially an assessment of meaning.

Seeing war as physically harmful may be more accurate in terms of identifying it (or rather, its effects) than making a value assessment of it as something bad. Two different activities. Obviously, since it's already been established as harmful, that is estimated to be negative.

Yes, it is never about the existence of anything, but about how that something relates to you in a way that serves yourself - for example, by assessing whether it is positive or negative, which show up in various forms: interesting, irrelevant, worthy, trivial, valuable, significant, useless, important, etc. For instance, you could ask: Worthless for what? Or: Useful for whom?

Edited Monday at 04:06 PM by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 7/18/2025 at 10:33 AM, Kensho said:

In my language, Greek, depending on the context, we have two different words to translate the word meaning.  

The first is, "νόημα" (noima), which comes from the root "νους" (pronounced noos, like the animal moose, not like mouse), which means 'mind'. In other words, it refers to what is produced by the mind, the result of the active process of the intellect. Το 'give meaning' is the mind’s attribution of qualities or properties to external stimuli; hence, meaning is the outcome of the mind’s engagement with reality. The outcome of the act of sensemaking.

The second one is the word 'σημασία'  (seemasia), which means significance. In English, “meaning” comes from the Old English mænan, meaning “to intend” or “to signify.” The word emphasises intention and what is being pointed to or implied, focusing less on the mind’s internal creation and more on outward signification and communication. 

In the context of this forum, I get that the word meaning is mostly used as the former.

To illustrate, in one of his last discourses, Krishnamurti told the audience, "Do you want to know what my secret is??" 

He paused, and everyone leaned in, expecting some grand revelation. Then he smiled and said:

"You see, I don’t mind what happens."              ('mind' -verb- as the act of sensemaking)

 

a simple sentence with a profound meaning (significance). He means (signifies), 'I don't engage in sensemaking, I don't project personal importance onto events, I am not acting as a meaning-making machine. I let things be as they are'

Nice, thank you.

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Sure, thanks.

Maybe in this discussion it'd be like asking: What does a cookie mean? Or thinking of the cookie as a good sweet.

We'd have to have a cookie awakening.  

"Bad" is essentially an assessment of meaning.

You could say seeing war as physically harmful would be more accurate in terms of identifying some of its effects than making a value assessment of it as something negative. Obviously, since it's been established that it is harmful, it is estimated to be bad.

Yes, it is never about the existence of anything, but about how that something relates to you in a way that serves yourself - for example, by assessing whether it is positive or negative, which show up in various forms: interesting, irrelevant, worthy, trivial, valuable, significant, useless, important, etc. For instance, you could ask: Worthless for what? Or: useful for whom? These questions point at a relationship. 

Will likely edit tomorrow

I still have trouble distinguishing judgment, labelling, identifying and assigning meaning. But it’s ok

Edited July 21 by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I still have trouble distinguishing judgment, labelling, identifying and assigning meaning. But it’s ok

Use that as an exercise to unpack each of those activities.

Ask yourself questions such as: What am I seeing? What does it mean to me?

Judgment is a form of meaning, and labeling may be a subset of identification - but you tell me.

Edited Monday at 07:58 PM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

21 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Use that as an exercise to unpack each of those activities. What do you see? What does it mean to you?

Judgement is a form of meaning. Labeling is a subset of identification - perhaps. You tell me.

Lol

Weird occasion to say “thanks”

[PurpleTree]

Gosh again i was almost crushed by the energetic gnarly dense heaviness of meaning.

But again its seemingly seen that there is none really.

The project of “me” is supported pillars of me-aning.

[Xonas Pitfall]

29 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Gosh again i was almost crushed by the energetic gnarly dense heaviness of meaning.

But again its seemingly seen that there is none really.

The project of “me” is supported pillars of me-aning.

Meaning usually follows this path: You notice or experience some suffering → You alleviate it for yourself → You share, teach, or help others alleviate that same pain.

Or, in a shorter and broader sense:

You notice how to generate more happiness for yourself and others → You share it and help others experience it.

It’s about sharing happiness, alleviating suffering, increasing love, self-expression, exploration, understanding, and care.

Life purpose and "calling" usually imply the specific skill or type of suffering or experience/happiness you’re fixing and sharing. That’s why children and relationships are meaningful to a lot of people; you get to feel loved, share love, and feel the direct impact of your actions on others. The same applies to high-purpose careers. This is the more "human" definition of meaning.

The more spiritual/metaphysical view is:

The universe is unlimited, undefined, pure chaos, and infinity; what it’s missing is finiteness. So, it creates finitudes to experience and know itself.

We are small pieces of consciousness, or figments, that help consciousness define itself.

Think of it this way: If you don’t know how to gain muscle, you enter into a chaotic, unpredictable world of the gym. Then, you discover how to achieve that goal, and in the process, you’re slowly defining and paving the way on how to do it.

See how it connects back to the human-purpose version, too?

It’s about defining infinity, making infinity know itself. It’s ultimately meaningless since we are the meaning generators. Meaning fundamentally implies that something is more meaningful than something else. But in non-duality, nothing is more meaningful than anything else. Therefore, all and nothing are meaningful. 

You're filtering and creating structure in the undefined to achieve your specific bias (goal). For God, this specific path is meaningless because God is both overweight and lean, big and strong, small and fragile. But for you, you have a very specific preference for how you want to be, so now you make that specific distinction in the "unknown" meaningful. You give it special treatment and notice. This is something God "alone" could never do. We are the creations He needed to make this specific distinction, and that's why we exist. God can never alone experience attachment because God is unattached and equally attached to everything, fully connected. He both loves a glamorous movie star and a reclusive, bookish introvert; a tough, battle-hardened soldier, a free-spirited artist, but also a corporate CEO, a passionate activist, a hot playboy bunny and a 48-year-old basement-dwelling nerd, a rugged military man, a redneck, but also a spiritual delusional hipster, a man in his peak athletic capabilities, and a disabled person.

But YOU have a unique ability to love a very specific set of people or one person fully, and see, distinctly to you, why they are so special. You give them meaning that transcends all others. This is why we are needed by God. This also applies to yourself, your career, your hobbies, and your taste. Why are they so special to YOU? Only you can make them beautiful and meaningful because God cannot do it for you, since He loves all of them equally. It’s just that people often have a hard time loving themselves or feel self-deprecating unless they have more narcissistic tendencies. So, it’s sometimes easier to see this as a service to others and separate aspects of reality. But both are completely valid points of meaning.

You can only experience meaning from a finite perspective. So, the most meaningful thing is the thing from your personal, limited self-perspective, and that’s your "purpose." Keep chasing your bias. Humans’ bias is towards happiness and fulfillment, and away from unhappiness or hopelessness.

So, whatever form your personal point of view gives you, that is the highest meaning you can ever have and experience, since you’re the only ever source of finitude in the universe and the current NOW.

[UnbornTao]

On 7/25/2025 at 2:46 PM, PurpleTree said:

Gosh again i was almost crushed by the energetic gnarly dense heaviness of meaning.

But again its seemingly seen that there is none really.

The project of “me” is supported pillars of me-aning.

I think this might be pointing to a potential trap we can unconsciously fall into: seeing meaning as something negative or problematic - like I mentioned elsewhere.

No! Enjoy meaning. Create it, use it, and be conscious of what it is.

For example, you can make your life mean a challenging adventure - one meant to grow you and others in the direction of healing, consciousness, and transformation, and to serve the truth. That would kick your ass and be beneficial in all sorts of ways.

Personally, I don't want to give the impression that what I said is the whole story - or even necessarily accurate. You don't need to believe it. Just question meaning, if you want to get to the truth of it. At the same time, it's also true that, at the end of the day, we don't really care what anything is as long as it serves us - so why not be content with both options?

If you feel depressed after reading this thread, reconsider! Listen anew.

[PurpleTree]

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I think this might be pointing to a potential trap we can unconsciously fall into: seeing meaning as something negative or problematic - like I mentioned elsewhere.

No! Enjoy meaning. Create it, use it, and be conscious of what it is.

For example, you can make your life mean a challenging adventure - one meant to grow you and others in the direction of healing, consciousness, and transformation, and to serve the truth. That would kick your ass and be beneficial in all sorts of ways.

Personally, I don't want to give the impression that what I said is the whole story - or even necessarily accurate. You don't need to believe it. Just question meaning, if you want to get to the truth of it. At the same time, it's also true that, at the end of the day, we don't really care what anything is as long as it serves us - so why not be content with both options?

If you feel depressed after reading this thread, reconsider! Listen anew.

Funnily enough. Having less and less meaning to me feels freer and happier.