Review Ending unnecessary Suffering by Peter Ralston

[gettoefl]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's a phase, impossible to avoid. The only solution is to follow the flow, which now means moving toward true openness. We are part of the flow and the flow itself. Life can be seen as suffering if you see it as a static point, but if you perceive it as flow, it is an exciting movement, full of life

I regard you as fiend or friend as thus my life flows in suffering or in joy. I need you and you need me.

[ConsciousMan]

Reading this book now  

He features some of his upcoming book "whereof one cannot speak" in this which is pretty cool.

Has a very similar vibe to The Book of Not Knowing.

[MutedMiles]

21 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

A rock or a rose are different structures, a human another. "Thinking" is the same as a rock eroding or creating new molecular bonds due to pressure or whatever it does. Thinking is a manifestation of what you are. If you were terrified in Auschwitz,  later you don't perpetuate it with thoughts; it's in your cells. You are that energetic structure that reality has shaped. If you think you are the one who perpetuates it, you are referring to the ego, and the ego is the product, not the producer.

The point is that if your structure is closed, disconnected, is going to vibrate anxious, and this vibration is the thoughts. If you want stop suffering you have to open yourself as an structure, and it's not achieved stopping the thoughts, that's a kind of mental violence that just hide the depth of the closure

I think you need to contemplate on concepts and conceptualization. Like how you know "thinking" is same as rock eroding. These things belong in different categories or even realities all together one is physical while other is conceptual or mind-like. The models you are using to explain things are not making it clearer. Additionally when you believe that concepts and thinking cannot be dropped or changed unless you are open then that's your reality, and with such beliefs it will be impossible to change unless you are open off-course, But these are concepts or models to explain and understand stuff and it's always best to be flexible with these, Since it's not the actual reality, if we get rigid with it then we block our own way. 

Ralston makes total sense when you read his books and spend time, on his assertions or if you spent time thinking on these things.
I would recommend you a book. If you are into books it might be something you really like, You reminded me of an old friend who loved it, it's his favorite book .
"How to Think About Weird Things by Theodore Schick".

Edited Friday at 09:02 PM by MutedMiles

[Natasha Tori Maru]

One thing to respect Ralston for: he's not shoving something down your throat. He's not trying to feed you truth. He's trying to facilitate & guide. 

He pushes in (sometimes shocking) ways to look beyond survival. To realize that there are unconscious parts that govern you.

I don't see his emotive and explosive expression as a violent threat or traumatic experience as some perceive.

I see it as an attempt to alter students state in a safe way to change their perception. 

[Joshe]

@Breakingthewall I’ve never read any Ralston but his idea that you create your own suffering and therefore can stop creating it is simply true. 

Thing is, just because you stop adding negative thought onto negative thought this very moment, that does not end suffering. The same as the depression took time to assemble, it also takes time to disassemble, because it’s not feasible to stand guard over the mind 24/7. Therefore, new mental habits are required to replace the old. 

Specific, persistent thoughts keep the suffering structure in place. If you have the thought that your life is shitty and feel the emotional impact of that thought a few times per day, this keeps the suffering structure in place. But over time, if you don’t have those thoughts and don’t experience the energetic impact of them, the structure of depression will disassemble on its own and be replaced with whatever manifests from your new patterns of thought and emotion.

The law of cause and effect is at the core of every manifestation, including manifestations in the psyche. It’s difficult to trace back the psychological effects to the psychological causes because the causes are many and the effects are cumulative AND delayed, and because we don’t have the resources to track the inputs and outputs vigilantly. 

Taking responsibility for reality, i.e, submitting to and respecting the law of cause and effect, and consciously causing reality to have the effects you choose is one of the highest pursuits I can conceive of. Of course it’s not easy, but nothing great ever is. No pressure, no diamonds. 

Edited Saturday at 04:51 AM by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe Good point regarding cause and effect!

It is existential - within experience and found in material reality.

There are examples externally all around us.

The big challenge is having clarity around the cause & effect relationship that occurs internally.

This is the part people stumble over, as consequences of our internal thoughts are not always immediately apparent - as would be the case with placing a hand on a stovetop. There is no feedback immediately perceived, like cause and effect the material domain presents - the burnt hand.

Until we can have the internal clarity to recognize how our thoughts effect out internal consciousness - we are doomed to repeat the loop. Reinforce it even.

I think half the reason this concept gives people indigestion is the responsibility aspect - there is often judgement and blame associated with the cause (the thought they cannot stop having) that is feeding the suffering. But it is not so! Many people don't know any better - they don't understand how their thoughts affect them. We wouldn't judge ourselves for accidently touching the stove and burning ourselves. But we will continue to burn ourselves if we do not have the insight that the stove is hot and burning us, touching it hurts.

Once this clicks - you take action to try to stop. This is when people find it is difficult to stop, because patterns of thinking are habitual, and most people aren't aware of their thinking in the slightest. But like any habit - we can train ourselves out of them and into them. It takes clarity, energy and focus. But it can be done. No judging the process. No blame.

But the outcome is - just like Ralston repeats - you stop doing it!

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

If you have the thought that your life is shitty

Maybe you have that thought because it is shitty. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe you have that thought because it is shitty. 

And how does that thought improve your wellbeing?

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

And how does that thought improve your wellbeing?

Maybe makes you realize what's going wrong, for example you may have an inherited set of values that makes it impossible for you to accept your situation, but on the other hand, you can't change that set of values by convincing yourself otherwise, because it's built into your structure. Masking it up won't help. So you might conclude that your only way out is to dig deep, reach the hardware, and deactivate it by transcending those structures.

This isn't something you'll achieve by changing your thoughts; this's like covering up an infection without curing it. It will remain there, taking other forms.

The problem is that real change is complex and requires absolute sovereignty. Then people will choose simpler solutions, but they doesn't work. Only the truth works, and changing your thoughts is deceiving yourself. Your values will remain, your need of validation, aceptation, success, etc, are going to make your structure closed, then you may feel that you are suffering less, but in background the vibration of suffering will remain. Suffering is not a sickness, it's a simptom, the sickness is disconnection, and the cure is open your structure to connect yourself with what you really are

Anyway , maybe the other way also works, but I tried a lot, I read Tolle, etc, I internalized those ideas but were useless for me, I guess it depends of the person.

Edited Saturday at 10:30 AM by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe makes you realize what's going wrong

Yep, identifying a problem. We aren't talking about repression with thoughts. Repression is not how you stop thoughts.

But how does looking at the problem being 'shitty' affect your wellbeing? You missed answering the question.

Does it make a bad emotion? Does it make it a good emption? Or no emotion?

Do you agree with the statement 'events aren't inherently traumatizing' ?

Try to answer with as little words as possible.

[theleelajoker]

Read through the whole thread.

Sometimes it seems that @Breakingthewall propose apple pie 🥧🍎 while @Natasha Tori Maru @Joshe &Co are proposing strawberry pie 🥧 🍓 as the solution to suffering. 

Maybe let's go a mix 🍓 🍎 🥧?  Striving for openness, seeing suffering as evolutionary mechanism but also seeing how we can stop creating certain thoughts and emotional responses?

Not sure if I follow completely every point of everyone, but it seems a bit "either/ or" instead of can be a "bit of both."

I recall that believes can make a huge difference in what works and how (placebo)

 

Edited Saturday at 07:53 AM by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@theleelajoker Haha yes - basically the same thing is being said. It's just that Breakingthewall doesn't realize that their method to ease suffering IS stopping thought

[theleelajoker]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@theleelajoker Haha yes - basically the same thing is being said. It's just that Breakingthewall doesn't realize that their method to ease suffering IS stopping thought

Ok thanks sometimes it's just wording, definitions, interpretation that creates the idea of differences rather then the actual difference.

I think someone (you?) made a point like this before and I agree.

Also I know feel like reading his book 😂 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Do you agree with the statement 'events aren't inherently traumatizing' ?

Of course, they depend entirely on the person processing them. For someone, the mere possibility of getting sick and spending all day suffering from catastrophic thoughts without anything having happened to them can be horrifying, even everything in his life is perfect. How can that person stop suffering? Why is he suffering?

[gettoefl]

Ego can't stop suffering. Ego IS suffering. Ego IS thought. Can a thought stop being a thought? So when thought arises, undo the thought. The opening is created. Ego is impotent. Power can arise.

[AION]

Ralston reached the highest echelons in marshal arts and is an expert is skill building. You really have to be a total Sméagol to not enjoy the fruits of his work. Only for couple of bucks you can learn what you learned in decades. Skill building is a meta skill that perhaps  one of the most important things in life. If you know how to build skill in life you will reap benefits in life that will outweigh the suffering in any endeavor. 

[AION]

7 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Ego can't stop suffering. Ego IS suffering. Ego IS thought. Can a thought stop being a thought? So when thought arises, undo the thought. The opening is created. Ego is impotent. Power can arise.

That is like saying gravity is suffering. Yes it is suffering if you don’t know how to deal with gravity and keep falling and injuring yourself. But don’t forget that gravity is needed for your bone density. In the same way suffering is needed for growth and repair. Gym people know this. No wonder you like Breakingthewall. You are both grade A fools. 

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, AION said:

Ralston reached the highest echelons in marshal arts and is an expert is skill building. You really have to be a total Sméagol to not enjoy the fruits of his work. Only for couple of bucks you can learn what you learned in decades. Skill building is a meta skill that perhaps  one of the most important things in life. If you know how to build skill in life you will reap benefits in life that will outweigh the suffering in any endeavor. 

Totally agree. Leo Messi is extremely skilled. That shows he's wise. You've opened my eyes. You're right to insult me. It's ok that you call me stupid, but understand that when talking to people at your level, we're all at a disadvantage. Don't be so hard with people that is not so smart than you. It's ok that you insult them, that shows that you are great, but please, understand us, we are trying our best (that is low of course)

Edited Saturday at 11:28 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, AION said:

No wonder you like Breakingthewall. You are both grade A fools. 

😂You are great. That's the way to have a debate about spirituality. High level.

Edited Saturday at 11:29 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

Anyway, I will explain you why someone is suffering a lot just by the possibility of getting sick. Just because he's smart and he sees clearly that possibility, and he sees all it's implications. He also sees that human life is a trap, that he's a robot reacting to stimulus like a rat going directly to old age and death. 

Then someone would think: you are stupid (not a genius like the op) , why are you suffering? Life is great, come to have some drinks in a terrace and forget your foolnes. Just stop thinking about it and it's done. But that person couldn't, because that ideas and that nihilism got deep inside of his psyche. Then, how that person would stop his suffering? Manipulating his mind? How, if he is his mind? 

It's only one exit, only one. And it's not stop thinking.