Is There a Genocide in Gaza?

[Wilhelm44]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide

@samijiben

You quoted the UN definition of genocide.

Above is an article from a special UN committee saying that the Israeli warfare methods in Gaza are consistent with genocide.

So it's not just a buzz word that's being thrown around, it's reality.

 

Edited June 26 by Wilhelm44

[Hatfort]

It's a genocide, population estimations in Gaza before October 7 and now are what we have to compare. They were above 2.200.000 then, and below 1.800.000 now. The around 50.000 dead that are being reported are a huge underestimation, those are the ones that could be counted by body and name, but people who have disappeared under the rubble or died indirectly have not been listed.

The real numbers are above 400.000 killed, half children.

[samijiben]

26 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

It's a genocide, population estimations in Gaza before October 7 and now are what we have to compare. They were above 2.200.000 then, and below 1.800.000 now. The around 50.000 dead that are being reported are a huge underestimation, those are the ones that could be counted by body and name, but people who have disappeared under the rubble or died indirectly have not been listed.

The real numbers are above 400.000 killed, half children.

Source?

[samijiben]

9 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide

@samijiben

You quoted the UN definition of genocide.

Above is an article from a special UN committee saying that the Israeli warfare methods in Gaza are consistent with genocide.

So it's not just a buzz word that's being thrown around, it's reality.

 

Whatever is happening, it is not a genocide. It is also not not a genocide. Call it whatever you want. It is just one of the dark alleyways of your mind. Story ends there. I'm done with this thread.

[Wilhelm44]

3 hours ago, samijiben said:

Whatever is happening, it is not a genocide. It is also not not a genocide. Call it whatever you want. It is just one of the dark alleyways of your mind. Story ends there. I'm done with this thread.

I know the reality is hard to accept. You quoted the UN definition of genocide. And the UN themselves literally confirmed that it is the case. 

Edited June 27 by Wilhelm44

[samijiben]

38 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I know the reality is hard to accept. You quoted the UN definition of genocide. And the UN themselves literally confirmed that it is the case. 

The reality IS hard to accept. But what IS that reality? Calling it genocide doesn't do it justice. It is much more evil than that. And more nuanced.

At the end of the day, you think that Israel is commiting genocide, so be it.

I think that what is happening is a bit more tricky than that. I won't settle for a simple definition.

Sir Wilhelm of South Africa,

I love you.

Leave it there. Arguing is no fun for me.

[Wilhelm44]

1 hour ago, samijiben said:

The reality IS hard to accept. But what IS that reality? Calling it genocide doesn't do it justice. It is much more evil than that. And more nuanced.

At the end of the day, you think that Israel is commiting genocide, so be it.

I think that what is happening is a bit more tricky than that. I won't settle for a simple definition.

Sir Wilhelm of South Africa,

I love you.

Leave it there. Arguing is no fun for me.

Im not arguing. You initially said you wanted to know if whats happening in Gaza matches up with the definition of genocide. You quoted the UN definition of what constitutes genocide. And the UN answered your question with a pretty clear yes. (An interesting experiment to try: Imagine for a moment that you have no choice but to accept that this is in fact a genocide, and then see what that pov brings up for you in your inner world.) Peace.

Edited June 27 by Wilhelm44

[samijiben]

59 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Im not arguing. You initially said you wanted to know if whats happening in Gaza matches up with the definition of genocide. You quoted the UN definition of what constitutes genocide. And the UN answered your question with a pretty clear yes. (An interesting experiment to try: Imagine for a moment that you have no choice but to accept that this is in fact a genocide, and then see what that pov brings up for you in your inner world.) Peace.

Wilhelm, an accusation of genocide must rest on evidence, not thought experiments.

The UN actually has NOT declared this officially as a genocide. Officials within the UN have, but not the body as a whole.

Also, please remember that intent still matters. Just because this is a horrific war with thousands of civilians deaths, and just because Gaza is a shell of itself, does not mean it's genocide. That is a mental jump. The legal threshold for genocide is intent to destroy a racial, ethnic or religious group.

I told you that my position is not "definitely not genocide" — just that I'm not convinced yet. You asked me to imagine accepting this as a genocide. Fair. I did that. Now I ask you: can you imagine that what's happening, while catastrophic & unjustifiable in many ways, might still fall short of genocide?

Wilhelm, genocide is not a term that you can just throw around. It has a specific definition.

That being said, as we both mentioned, it does not matter how we label this catastrophe in regard to the real suffering it has caused many, many people.

Understand that I am not downplaying the harsh reality of what's happening. But you must provide a well-reasoned argument for why Israel is commiting genocide for me to take you seriously. Saying that Bibi thought: "Fuck it, let's kill them all" is speculative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

6 minutes ago, samijiben said:

Wilhelm, an accusation of genocide must rest on evidence, not thought experiments.

The UN actually has NOT declared this officially as a genocide. Officials within the UN have, but not the body as a whole.

Also, please remember that intent still matters. Just because this is a horrific war with thousands of civilians deaths, and just because Gaza is a shell of itself, does not mean it's genocide. That is a mental jump. The legal threshold for genocide is intent to destroy a racial, ethnic or religious group.

I told you that my position is not "definitely not genocide" — just that I'm not convinced yet. You asked me to imagine accepting this as a genocide. Fair. I did that. Now I ask you: can you imagine that what's happening, while catastrophic & unjustifiable in many ways, might still fall short of genocide?

Wilhelm, genocide is not a term that you can just throw around. It has a specific definition.

That being said, as we both mentioned, it does not matter how we label this catastrophe in regard to the real suffering it has caused many, many people.

Understand that I am not downplaying the harsh reality of what's happening. But you must provide a well-reasoned argument for why Israel is commiting genocide for me to take you seriously. Saying that Bibi thought: "Fuck it, let's kill them all" is speculative.

 

The evidence is simply overwhelming: How do you damage or destroy 92 percent of residential buildings, and then claim you had the intent of distinguishing between civilians and Hamas ?

[Wilhelm44]

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/

Amnesty International also says it's a genocide.

@samijiben   

[samijiben]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

The evidence is simply overwhelming: How do you damage or destroy 92 percent of residential buildings, and then claim you had the intent of distinguishing between civilians and Hamas ?

I told you already.

[Wilhelm44]

1 minute ago, samijiben said:

I told you already.

I don't think you did. Please remind me, how do you damage or destroy 92 percent of residential buildings if your target was purely Hamas ?

[samijiben]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't think you did. Please remind me, how do you damage or destroy 92 percent of residential buildings if your target was purely Hamas ?

Nah dude, fuck with the reminders. I'm done with this thread. You win. It's a genocide.

 

[Wilhelm44]

I'm not trying to win anything here. 

Just giving you the evidence.

It's natural that a lot of people are still in denial about this.

I mean how could the people to whom the Holocaust was done possibly be involved in something like a genocide right ?

But there's no reason to be shocked really.

We're all capable of Everything.

@samijiben

Edited June 27 by Wilhelm44

[Wilhelm44]

9 hours ago, Hatfort said:

It's a genocide, population estimations in Gaza before October 7 and now are what we have to compare. They were above 2.200.000 then, and below 1.800.000 now. The around 50.000 dead that are being reported are a huge underestimation, those are the ones that could be counted by body and name, but people who have disappeared under the rubble or died indirectly have not been listed.

The real numbers are above 400.000 killed, half children.

Thats crazy, 1/5 of the population, and Trump could have prevented much of that, if he spoke seriously to Bibi the way he did with regards to stopping the attacks on Iran.

Edited June 27 by Wilhelm44

[zazen]

I guess the tricky part is establishing intent. Let’s say you want to target a criminal amongst a crowd of innocent people - a sniper would be precise, a shotgun less precise due to bullet spray, a rocket launcher way less precise.

At each level you can say “my intent isn’t to kill innocents but the criminal” - but at the same time there is no intent to avoid civilian death either. It’s like lighting a candle on a bookshelf with a flamethrower - the intent isn’t to set the bookshelf on fire but that happens regardless because of the method chosen to light the candle.

There are Israelis who aren’t intent on killing civilians and take caution, there are others who take less caution to none at all, and then there are others who are intent on killing civilians - which are the evil ones.

We have heard clear intent to go after civilians and that there are no innocents. The clearest case of collective punishment is blockading the place of aid, turning off electricity, water etc.

Like you said, whatever its called: genocide, ethnic cleansing etc - it’s horrific either way.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-27/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-deliberately-at-unarmed-gazans-waiting-for-humanitarian-aid/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe33780000

[PurpleTree]

4 hours ago, samijiben said:

I told you already.

Probably around 70% women and children.

History will be harsh.

[samijiben]

11 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't think you did. Please remind me, how do you damage or destroy 92 percent of residential buildings if your target was purely Hamas ?

Oh, 92% of residential buildings damaged? Must be genocide, right? Case closed. Forget trials, legal definitions, or anythíng silly like proof of intent.

Look, I get it — it feels like genocide. And I know feelings are doing a lot of heavy lifting in this convirsation. But that’s not how this Works, Wilhelm.

You keep repeating the same stat like it’s a mic drop, but let’s be real: If Hamas sets up HQ in a hospital basement, stores rockets in UN schools, and fires from densely packed residential areas on purpose... — What do you think happens next? Peaceful negotiation? Precision sniping from space? Come on, man.

Yes, it’s devastating. Yes, thousands of civilians have died. That’s a tragedy. But that doesn't make it a genocide. I have said this thrice throughout this thread.

Collateral damage still isn’t the same as deliberate intent to murder a people. That distinction is important. You don't just bulldoze legal definitions because you’re emotionally convinced of something. And sure, throw in the “you’re just in denial because you can’t imagine Jews doing bad things” line. But I don’t believe in collective sainthood. Not for Israelis, not for Palestinians, not for anyone. History proves humans are capable of everything, as you said — including twisting facts to fit emotional narratives.

I’m not going to throw out the definition of genocide because it feels like one. I’m not going to decide based on aerial photos and vibes. Genocide requires intent to exterminate a peoples. You don’t get there just by pointing at broken buildings and saying, “Looks genocidal to me.” If you’ve got a document, a statement, a policy that shows Israel’s leadership saying, “Let’s wipe out Palestinians as a group,” I’ll read it. Seriously. But, so far, you’ve given me a body count and a theory, not a case.

So, no, I’m not in denial. I just don’t equate destruction with genocide because I still think definition matters. Genocide is the most serious acusation you can make. It has to be based on more than numbers & emotions.

The strongest indicator that I am wrong is how angry I feel writing this. Not your argument. Your argument is buttocks.

Edited June 27 by samijiben

[samijiben]

11 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Thats crazy, 1/5 of the population, and Trump could have prevented much of that, if he spoke seriously to Bibi the way he did with regards to stopping the attacks on Iran.

Those numbers you are replying to are bull.

@Hatfort Give me a source that shows that 400,000 Gazans have been killed, half of which being children. 

This is the most obvious form of propoganda on this form to date. Don't spread such blatant misinformation. 

[Wilhelm44]

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146

@samijiben