Is the West more developed from an SD perspective?

[saif2]

Is it more developed?

I mean it is quite factual in some places in the world that the west does not respect the sovereignty of other countries, forcing their values on them, bombing them, and tricking them into shitty economic deals that are disastrous on the long run. So it is strange to me that the infrastructure that allowed high levels of development in SD is based on bombing, corruption and fine words.

Note: I do think that the west more developed i just dont know how this is the case. In my head there is the idea that consciousness is fair, this does not seem fair to me.

 I didn’t live in a western country, and i was born into the biases of a third world country. A country that serves as a puppet for the west.

maybe it is an issue of intensity of corruption?

Edited June 22 by saif2

[Puer Aeternus]

Western countries can be more well-developed within their countries because they have stakeholders there to take care of.

Outside of their borders, this level of accountability falls away and becomes more precarious. Different motives take hold and corrupt actors take stage. Foreign strategy and resource goals are pursued for the benefit of the state and individual actors with their own motives.

It becomes more pragmatic, like backing a repressive authoritarian dictator if they will give you diplomatic benefits. Yet the level of development between the backing country and the dictatorship isn't the same. 

And to cope with this, people living in developed nations create emotional distancing and indifference to separate themselves from exploits done for their benefit abroad. Governments and corporations lean into this and sanitize things further.

If Nike directly blasted it in your face how they use child labor from third world countries, they'd lose sales in developed countries. It breaks down the barrier and causes dissonance with their more compareitively progressive values.

In lesser developed countries this game isn't as necessary. They're more in survival and less likely to care where something comes from when they're hungry. Additionally their in group out group structure may be more constrained, so as long as people in their identity group aren't being hurt they may not care much.

 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[saif2]

@Puer Aeternus I agree with most of what you said. It is obvious that politicians tend to be more corrupt than your average joe. 
but the question is more specific, how is it fair? Ignoring something is not a very conscious act it is the opposite of that. I do get the impression that to move up to anhigher stage in SD, one needs more information. No? How can it be otherwise, can one become green if he does not expose himself to different cultures? So the question is why do these infrastructures enable conscious progress. I can find two reasons for that:

1. Reality is perspectival, if you dont know something and your nit ignoring it then it does not exist so one can grow. 
2. It is all meaningless, which is ultimate fairness, so if a country decides to bomb another country it is not corrupt it is just the dream. 
 

[Puer Aeternus]

@saif2 Well, it isn't fair. I think that the issue is that not all people in developed country will be at higher stages. It will be a good spread. Some will care, some won't.

In these quote on quote developed nations, most of them are largely in orange. Which can be still okay with exploitation, at its most toxic seeking it out without any moral grounding. They just don't tolerate it on the level blue would.. like literal legal slavery in their home country. Because again, emotional distance. There is a greater caring but it's only half there. It's not much more developed than blue though. 

Green cares a lot and sees how screwed up this all is. But green usually doesn't have strong enough of a threshold of population/power to change a country's foreign policy. Even if they could, things would probably go very wrong as they lack the ability to use tier two thinking. Blue and orange strategies are simply more pragmatic in the current world order, this represses green's influence down even more.

As for your other contemplations! It makes sense information would be key to move people up to the next stage. I could see denial of the suffering of others keeping someone stuck in orange, perhaps if they could breakthrough that denial they'd begin transitioning more to green as they'd be connecting with humanity to a great extent. But I don't really know and these transitions don't always happen in guaranteed or linear ways.

Edited June 23 by Puer Aeternus

[Hojo]

Because of money only. Money holds people up to higher states. The whole spiral dynamic bs is because people are comfortable. If money goes so does your spiral dynamic state. If that's true its just a self masterbating tool.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[Puer Aeternus]

22 minutes ago, Hojo said:

Because of money only. Money holds people up to higher states. The whole spiral dynamic bs is because people are comfortable. If money goes so does your spiral dynamic state. If that's true its just a self masterbating tool.

Money is definitely true but I wouldn't say it's money only. But money is a fundamental pillar at the bottom supporting it all. When money = survival and even comfort 

[Hojo]

@Puer Aeternus This to me is like a physicist doing their physics before studying metaphysics. You skip the fundamental stage start at stage 2 or 3 and claim you know. Never being in stage red to prove you can pass it. Its like yea I'm better cause I have never been in the situation for me to have to be red.

And you can look down from your ivory tower at people who are born into stage red and think you've somehow overcome something and are on a higher stage, as if you or someone can enhance them with developmental tips without actually doing it.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[Puer Aeternus]

I mean yes. We don't all start from the same place and the culture we are born into effects this. You get scaffolded up through red because your culture has already taken care of such survival needs for you. Which has pros and cons. 

Since your survival needs are taken care of so you can spend more time on other things. If everyone had to go through red center of gravity, so many people would get stuck grappling with survival their whole lives. Since people tend not to climb stages but stabilize around their culture's.

If there's a collapse and people can't take survival for granted anymore. Then yes they will fall down, but it would be qualitatively different than if they'd only known red.

People sent to war are a great example. Throws them into an intense survival environment. They'll be forced to embody red and it's proactive/painful aspects. Once they come home, most will spring back up to their culture's/previous level again. With new abilities and wounds however.. and sometimes things do go very wrong.

But when the survival conditions are restored, so are they mostly to their former level.

Edited June 23 by Puer Aeternus

[Hojo]

@Puer AeternusSo your spiral is built on how much money you have. If your money goes you are instantly put back into red. That means red is not individual. Tran sending red is cultural.

Imagine America collapses it falls into stage red. Someone who is a stage orange or blue or whatever  goes oh my God I'm scared and falls to stage red. Were they actually orange or blue or was it just made up heiarchle word games to play while your stomach was full and had a nice home and protective society.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[Puer Aeternus]

12 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Puer AeternusSo your spiral is built on how much money you have. If your money goes you are instantly put back into red. That means red is not individual. Tran sending red is cultural.

Imagine America collapses it falls into stage red. Someone who is a stage orange or blue or whatever  goes oh my God I'm scared and falls to stage red. Were they actually orange or blue or was it just made up heiarchle word games to play while your stomach was full and had a nice home and protective society.

Dude. It isn't just money. It's survival conditions. That's the war example. Different environments call for different strategies. 

If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow, that's a strong pressure pulling people downward towards survival and a new strategy. We're talking most intense scenario. And even that wouldn't be so clean cut.. oh no and everyone becomes red now instantly! No. It will be messy. There will be struggle. It's not as fallible as you're making it out to be.

Softer examples happen all the time. Like a recession, some people get pulled down. It can even be a phase someone goes through in life where they have less resources and need to adapt. And you're right to question it. Getting pulled down sometimes is necessary to consolidate new things and hopefully move on.

 

[Basman]

Development is relative. The West is Orange-Green while the rest of the world is Blue or Blue-Orange/red.

Give the resources and technology the West has to Russia or some African country and they would immediately use it to conquer their neighbors and destabilize the region/world. Israel has nukes but doesn't use them but give nukes to Palestine and Israel is gone the next day.

The kind of capitalistic exploitation you see is a more developed version of conquest and plunder (value extraction). It's a softer version of Mongol invaders burning down your town, slaughtering all the men, raping the women, hanging babies from trees like Christmas decoration and wearing the ripped out fetuses of pregnant women as necklaces. 

Europe geography created a boiler room for development and innovation as a bunch of countries that where very close to each had to compete for survival. That is one of the main reasons why the West is relatively more developed than the rest of the world.

[Basman]

10 hours ago, Hojo said:

Because of money only. Money holds people up to higher states. The whole spiral dynamic bs is because people are comfortable. If money goes so does your spiral dynamic state. If that's true its just a self masterbating tool.

If you remove the lower levels of a jenga tower it crumbles. Obviously. That doesn't make it fake. Development implies building on top of each in layers. You can't build a sky scraper without a first floor. 

For example, you can't have women's rights if you can't handle basic survival, which is why women's right doesn't truly appear till Stage Orange because only then there is an abundance of resources. The cultural structures of Blue dissipate as they are no longer necessary. But if for example a massive war breaks out you'll see the girl bosses quickly turn into house wives or leave the country outright like in Ukraine. 

It's funny, because I mostly see people from third world countries hating on Spiral Dynamics. 

[Hojo]

@Basman To say the lowest level of spiritual development ladder is money, shits on the entire structure. To say that is to say women's rights are because of money. Anti slavery is because of money. All the way up to turquoise where you can finally say just kill me I don't care. 

Pretty much what I am saying is spiral dynamics is a house of cards until you reach the last level. And once you reach the last level thats, anti survival, and the only way to truly beat stage red individually. You beat it by saying just kill me then.

They probably shit on it cause they see that its a farce. You are pretending to beat stage red when you were born past stage red. Basically lying.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[Basman]

@Hojo

I live close to a military training ground. I hear gun shots during the week days and when I go for walks during open hours I see large pathways carved by tank threads and spent casings everywhere jammed into the earth.

There is no lie.

Money is just a means of survival. If you undermine survival, for example security, then you'll see those aforementioned tanks come into use. Ukraine hungers more for artillery shells than money.

Collective behavior is shaped by survival incentives. Morals are themselves are glorified rules for survival. There is no rule in the universe that says slavery is inherently bad for example. That is why morals and survival incentives intersect. Like women's rights and capitalism.

Edited June 23 by Basman

[Hojo]

@Basman The spiral dynamics is made up or is somehow claiming to measure something outside of the universe which is also made up.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[Puer Aeternus]

3 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Basman The spiral dynamics is made up or is somehow claiming to measure something outside of the universe which is also made up.

At the end of the day, it's a model. It's not perfect and doesn't explain reality. It tries to point at patterns, some of which can be interesting and insightful.

You have a point with your arguments but you don't really seem to be adapting them when we try to explain and add nuance. Clearly it's just no your cup of tea and there's just not much more to be said! That's alright.

[Hojo]

@Puer Aeternus If it is a measurement tool whatever its measuring has nothing to do with you or anyone as an individual, and to try to identify yourself with it, to see where you are is a farce. Proven by the fact that it will change based on external stimuli. The only true stage is turquoise in the whole thing and turquoise just means i surrender my life to every stage.

If its a model its a model of collective humans not individual. Saying this person is a certain stage or i am a certain stage is masterbating.

Edited June 23 by Hojo

[_Archangel_]

@saif2

16 hours ago, saif2 said:

I mean it is quite factual in some places in the world that the west does not respect the sovereignty of other countries, forcing their values on them, bombing them, and tricking them into shitty economic deals that are disastrous on the long run. So it is strange to me that the infrastructure that allowed high levels of development in SD is based on bombing, corruption and fine words.

Being more developed doesn't mean you are completely exempted from doing nasty shit. The West is less currupted then Russia or Iran, but still currupted.

16 hours ago, saif2 said:

Note: I do think that the west more developed i just dont know how this is the case. In my head there is the idea that consciousness is fair, this does not seem fair to me.

Good indicators of developement are: Social and civil rights of Citizens, Freedom of the Press, Level of Corruption, Form of Governement (democracy/dictatorship/monarchy etc.). If you compere, let's say, Norway with Saudi Arabia, by looking at this statistics you can clearly see which country is more developed in the therms of SD. 

 

[yetineti]

The answer is quite simple.

America:

Power ✅

Authority ✅

Independence ✅

Community ✅ (Starting to/Smaller pockets)

You can run the same list for other countries and compare how much of what they have. 

SD is not linear, but the stages can and often do build on each other to one extent or another.