The fallacy of self help

[UnbornTao]

@Breakingthewall What you think and do has consequences. Stories and belief systems aside, what's the relationship between what you think and your internal state?

For instance, as an exercise, actually create a desire for something and the notion that it is out of reach. If you successfully do that, you'll suffer hopelessness, depression, frustration, or something else, as a result of your conceptual activity. That's because your present experience is now assessed to be "less than," based on your desire.

Now, contrast that with embracing your current experience and being enthusiastic about what you're doing.

Compare the difference in both action and outcome.

So - what had to happen for suffering to arise?

What didn't you do with your mind?

How is that you went through such an ordeal - presumably pain-free - in the anecdote you shared above?

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

They mean the hellscapes that were constructed by repeated wrong thought and action. In that case, the person did cause it, and is causing it. If they want it to be no more, they have to identify how they're constructing it and stop. 

That's exactly the idea of self-help, which is false and therefore never works. It castrates the mind. You can't focus on the present; you're already in the present all the time. It's just that your present is an anxious vibration. The anxious vibration is the result of your energetic structure, a very intricate and complex pattern created by countless relationships, like anything else in reality.

When you say you can focus on the present, it seems like you're stating the obvious, but what you're actually doing is separating yourself from your thoughts, and the past and future from the present. In other words, you're falling into a trap disguised as spirituality that will prevent you from truly aligning and expanding yourself, simplifying what is not simple at all. 

The fact that you're creating a bubble of constant mental flow made of self-referential thinking is the consequence of an energetic structure closed by fear. If you aim for the consequence, that is, the mental flow, you won't achieve anything. You have to understand the roots of your fear, face it head-on, understand your closed structure. Understand it intuitively, directly. It's extremely difficult.

The fact that we are the way we are is the result of a reality, inheritance, connection, and human evolutionary pattern, not a silly mistake that is fixed by stopping thinking. You have to go through your psyche, look it in the face, look the limitlessness, the absolute nihilism in the face, and go through it. There is no easy way; easy ways are drugs that numb you, anesthetize you, like sadhguru or Ralston. The real path is the road of the pioneer, the one who conquers reality. We are humans, we are made for that job.

Edited Wednesday at 07:59 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

@Breakingthewall What you think and do has consequences. Stories and belief systems aside, what's the relationship between what you think and your internal state?

For instance, as an exercise, actually create a desire for something and the notion that it is out of reach. If you successfully do that, you'll suffer hopelessness, depression, frustration, or something else, as a result of your conceptual activity. That's because your present experience is now assessed to be "less than," based on your desire.

Now, contrast that with embracing your current experience and being enthusiastic about what you're doing.

Compare the difference in both action and outcome.

So - what had to happen for suffering to arise?

What didn't you do with your mind?

How is that you went through such an ordeal - presumably pain-free - in the anecdote you shared above?

The thought that arises is the consequence of a hypercomplex energetic structure that emits that vibration.

If your existential pattern, interconnected with the totality of reality, has created, for example, a relationship based on lack, which has given rise to a series of responsibilities that are something real, a real energetic knot, and all of this has led you down a life path based on fear, resulting in you being trapped in a series of oppressive situations, do you really think you're going to choose to think everything is wonderful, and that it really will be? No. Welcome to the real world. This isn't Disneyland; it's more like the trenches of World War I. You just don't know it yet.

All that patterns are the results of an inimaginable chain of relationship cause effect that encompass the whole; they are the whole expressing itself now. Each neuronal synapse unfolds to infinity; each energetic exchange with another is a reality that deploys its butterfly effects in the totality of existence. You don't intuit the magnitude of this game; you are reality in action, the living infinity unfolding.

[theleelajoker]

36 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's exactly the idea of self-help, which is false and therefore never works. It castrates the mind. You can't focus on the present; you're already in the present all the time. It's just that your present is an anxious vibration. The anxious vibration is the result of your energetic structure, a very intricate and complex pattern created by countless relationships, like anything else in reality.

When you say you can focus on the present, it seems like you're stating the obvious, but what you're actually doing is separating yourself from your thoughts, and the past and future from the present. In other words, you're falling into a trap disguised as spirituality that will prevent you from truly aligning and expanding yourself, simplifying what is not simple at all. 

The fact that you're creating a bubble of constant mental flow made of self-referential thinking is the consequence of an energetic structure closed by fear. If you aim for the consequence, that is, the mental flow, you won't achieve anything. You have to understand the roots of your fear, face it head-on, understand your closed structure. Understand it intuitively, directly. It's extremely difficult.

The fact that we are the way we are is the result of a reality, inheritance, connection, and human evolutionary pattern, not a silly mistake that is fixed by stopping thinking. You have to go through your psyche, look it in the face, look the limitlessness, the absolute nihilism in the face, and go through it. There is no easy way; easy ways are drugs that numb you, anesthetize you, like sadhguru or Ralston. The real path is the road of the pioneer, the one who conquers reality. We are humans, we are made for that job.

OK I am with you conceptually. You have an example (or several) for that? As concrete as possible, best from your own experience. How did you recognize this fallacy of self help? What situation and with whom? How did you recognize the roots of your fear? What made it difficult?  How did you manage to open up? It would help me and maybe others could get a better access to what your saying, too. 

Regarding this quote: 

Quote

Psychological suffering is much more complex because it places us in a trap: we desire permanence and we are impermanent. Therefore, we must make a move for which there is no instruction manual: the breaking of boundaries, the opening to the unlimited. This flattens psychological suffering because you are no longer locked in the dimension of the logical mind. You are not creating a self-referential bubble in which your energy bounces off yourself. Instead, you operate in a fluid, open manner. This does not mean that if you have something like a serious illness you will not suffer, but it is managed differently

This is quite funny. Three days ago, I had a LSD trip where I had the realization (at least I believe so)  how everything is just reflection over reflection, and projections from me (or better, through me) on others (he is like that, she is acting like this because of that etc). I could almost feel how "me" and "others" are in a mirror cabinet.  I decided that my next trip would be together with someone, because the idea is: In this altered state, we could interact differently and see what's behind all this self-referential loops and reflections.

I was and still am really motivated to break this cycle. When I read the text above, the memory of this trip and this very moment came up.  So, it's an interesting synchronicity. And similar as you describe "there is no manual" I have been recently discussing spiritual material and instructions that others put me in touch with. And my reaction was "best instruction is a empty sheet of paper", just like you say "there is no instruction manual"

So, now I am even more interested in practical examples if you're open to share : )

Edited Wednesday at 08:34 PM by theleelajoker

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The thought that arises is the consequence of a hypercomplex energetic structure that emits that vibration.

If your existential pattern, interconnected with the totality of reality, has created, for example, a relationship based on lack, which has given rise to a series of responsibilities that are something real, a real energetic knot, and all of this has led you down a life path based on fear, resulting in you being trapped in a series of oppressive situations, do you really think you're going to choose to think everything is wonderful, and that it really will be? No. Welcome to the real world. This isn't Disneyland; it's more like the trenches of World War I. You just don't know it yet.

All that patterns are the results of an inimaginable chain of relationship cause effect that encompass the whole; they are the whole expressing itself now. Each neuronal synapse unfolds to infinity; each energetic exchange with another is a reality that deploys its butterfly effects in the totality of existence. You don't intuit the magnitude of this game; you are reality in action, the living infinity unfolding.

Okay. It sounds like you really want to defend your suffering. What's your experience of it - regardless of stories and justifications?

Edited Thursday at 12:29 AM by UnbornTao

[Breakingthewall]

19 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

just reflection over reflection, and projections from me (or better, through me) on others (he is like that, she is acting like this because of that etc). I could almost feel how "me" and "others" are in a mirror cabinet

On one hand, there is the filter of the conditioned mind, which defines things comparatively. On the other, there is unlimited perception. More than perception, it is the fact of reality , without perceiver, object, or perception. Perception is a dual dimension that occurs in the current configuration of reality. As this dimension of reality is arranged, it forces the division between subject and object. This is not unreal; it is a perspective that occurs and, by its nature, limits. By limiting, it closes you off from your true nature because what you perceive are the limits, not the substance, what reality is.

You can change perspectives at will, place yourself in a perspective without limits, and then open yourself to the nature of reality, to what you are. But the normal thing is to exchange a limited perspective for another that is theoretically broader but also limited. It is not really broader because it is limited: creator and creation, etc.

The unlimited perspective is indefinite. Reality is total depth, limitlessness, and that's the same than being. The moment you try to grasp it with the mind, you enter the limited perspective. If you can truly enter the unlimited perspective, the limited perspective takes on a new dimension, another breadth. It is limited locally, but unlimited in its entirety. 

Denying the limited perspective as false, calling it illusion, dream, maya, closes it off. The limited perspective is the cause-effect relationship, and it's real. The only nuance is that it ultimately has no limits, but that doesn't mean everything is the same. There's a living flow occurring, and you understand that you must align yourself, open your energetic potential as much as possible. Why? Because that's what the flow tells you when you're open to it.

[Breakingthewall]

On 25/6/2025 at 4:54 PM, Jordan said:

Yea I am not interested in erasing the self or removing suffering. I am not sure why people are obsessed with that. I just want to pay attention to how I interpret reality. It makes sense to do it in as truthful a way as reasonable and in a way that lets me enjoy myself as much as I can. Keeping your body healthy and looking for what is good about the present moment is what will remove suffering if that is what you want to do.

Yeah, that means that you are looking for the depth, not looking for the flat absence.

On 25/6/2025 at 5:08 PM, Javfly33 said:

 

Isn´t self the limitation? 

No-self is the unlimitation, self is the limitation.

If you don´t like the word "self" you could call it structure, the karmic glue or just bubble of personal experience. 

The problem and I think that´s why you don't like it like that is that there are a lot of people that are saying that there Is not a self or an "I" in their experience but they are limited.

This is not because enlightment isn't what it is, is because they are lying and deceiving themselves, they are enlightened conceptually, which is nothing more than an ideology.

There is a self. It's an energetic structure that's occurring. You're afraid, you have a desire for survival. You'd rather have health and freedom than be locked in a basement full of rats for the rest of your life. It's a reality, so why do they say it's an illusion? They want to square the circle with hammer blows so they can burn themselves as a bonze without lifting a finger. Well, that's still self. The Buddhism is full of self and morality, it's a closed religion. It's more closed than Christianity, but it's seductive and the spirituality now is Buddhism with nuances. 

[UnbornTao]

[Javfly33]

19 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is a self. It's an energetic structure that's occurring. You're afraid, you have a desire for survival.

I'm not saying there isn't a self as a motto like the advaita guys. 

I'm saying there is the possibility of being a self and the possibility of not being a self. 

Both possibilities are there. It depends how the state of Reality is whether there will be a self or it won't. 

Maintaining the state of having no self is rare because there is a tendency to avoid dying. 

19 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You'd rather have health and freedom than be locked in a basement full of rats for the rest of your life.

From the self point of view I prefer the first one 

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Maintaining the state of having no self is rare because there is a tendency to avoid dying. 

 

When they say they don't have a self, they mean they don't operate in the comparative frequency, in which you're constantly evaluating your self-image against learned standards. It's essential to break out of that way of processing because it binds you in total limited state. To get out of there, you have to look at the fear of non-acceptance and break through it.

But once you break out of there and operate without comparison, barriers still exist. To achieve true openness, you have to look directly into the void, into the absolute nihilism of meaninglessness, and also into the fear of death. You have to dissolve all your barriers and manage to expand without limits for a moment, another time for longer, etc. This doesn't mean you don't have a self, but rather that your self operates in an open frequency. The self is what you are, your energetic structure. It can't disappear. Those who say this are operating in duality, and they are masters of non-duality.

Edited Friday at 11:46 AM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

When they say they don't have a self, they mean they don't operate in the comparative frequency, in which you're constantly evaluating your self-image against learned standards. It's essential to break out of that way of processing because it binds you in total limited state. To get out of there, you have to look at the fear of non-acceptance and break through it.

But once you break out of there and operate without comparison, barriers still exist. To achieve true openness, you have to look directly into the void, into the absolute nihilism of meaninglessness, and also into the fear of death. You have to dissolve all your barriers and manage to expand without limits for a moment, another time for longer, etc. This doesn't mean you don't have a self, but rather that your self operates in an open frequency. The self is what you are, your energetic structure. It can't disappear. Those who say this are operating in duality, and they are masters of non-duality.

The world I see is a laboratory for awakening. I see some thing. That thing is but a distinct covering for the totality. I can use my mind rather than my eyes to interpret it that way. It dawns on me, you are the whole, the unity, the fullness. In recognizing that, I recognize myself. I have erased all cause and effect. Now we are the whole, the unity, the fulness. We are the one. We abide in the absolute. The miracle is made manifest. I witness heaven as the resultant reality. Halleluiah boys and girls. I need only pray thus every waking moment to savor the splendor.

[Javfly33]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

But once you break out of there and operate without comparison, barriers still exist. To achieve true openness, you have to look directly into the void, into the absolute nihilism of meaninglessness, and also into the fear of death. You have to dissolve all your barriers and manage to expand without limits for a moment, another time for longer, etc. This doesn't mean you don't have a self, but rather that your self operates in an open frequency. The self is what you are, your energetic structure. It can't disappear. Those who say this are operating in duality, and they are masters of non-duality.

I see what you are going, you are talking about Bliss states of consciousness 

Bliss is a state where a lot of barriers are open and dissolved but there is a still a self to operate and function. This is the highest state before enlightment 

[Breakingthewall]

@gettoefl

If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.

As Blake said, it's a matter of openess. The doors are closed by evolutionary necessity. At some point, they open.

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I see what you are going, you are talking about Bliss states of consciousness 

Bliss is a state where a lot of barriers are open and dissolved but there is a still a self to operate and function. This is the highest state before enlightment 

Bliss is like nice? I don't mean that, I mean openess, make your energetic configuration transparent so that the nature of reality manifests through it.

[Javfly33]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Bliss is like nice? I don't mean that, I mean openess, make your energetic configuration transparent so that the nature of reality manifests through it.

How that would look in normal life? For example can you be in that state while in public going on the subway etc? 

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@gettoefl

If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.

As Blake said, it's a matter of openess. The doors are closed by evolutionary necessity. At some point, they open.

Long lost limbs, at every turn, please come home

[Javfly33]

36 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Long lost limbs, at every turn, please come home

We are all already home we just act like we ain't 😂

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

How that would look in normal life? For example can you be in that state while in public going on the subway etc? 

As you blur your energetic barriers, your way of processing, being, existing, flowing begins to restructure. These are progressive and cumulative changes, completely real, until at a given moment you realize there's almost no anxious energy, searching, negative rumination, or anything else that makes life unpleasant. Instead, there's more and more expansion, beauty, and clean, easy vital flow. This is what spiritual work is all about, isn't it? Openness and alignment.

Achieving a conceptual framework without closure makes openness possible, but it's not synonymous with it; it's just one more facet of the process

[Javfly33]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

As you blur your energetic barriers, your way of processing, being, existing, flowing begins to restructure. These are progressive and cumulative changes, completely real, until at a given moment you realize there's almost no anxious energy, searching, negative rumination, or anything else that makes life unpleasant. Instead, there's more and more expansion, beauty, and clean, easy vital flow. This is what spiritual work is all about, isn't it? Openness and alignment.

Achieving a conceptual framework without closure makes openness possible, but it's not synonymous with it; it's just one more facet of the process

I guess that's the process of Life itself we are going through. 

[Breakingthewall]

17 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

I guess that's the process of Life itself we are going through. 

Not necessarily, only if you don't get lost in traps. Do you remember when you did 5meo DMT right? If you vape 25 mg, there's usually a realization of infinity, and that translates to bliss, infinite love, etc. That bliss is simply the absence of barriers; it's not a thing; it's an absence. It's the taste of limitless . You recognize it as your nature; it opens your mind and fills your heart.

Obviously, if that's your nature, you don't need 5meo to open yourself to it. You just need to stare your barriers in the face again and again until, millimeter by millimeter, they begin to fall. But you can't fool yourself with stories, God, etc., because if you do, you'll be trapped.