The Manosphere Has A Gay Fixation

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Hojo said:

@EmeraldThats not dressing up thats forming an identity.

My argument is you said women dont use makeup for beauty, they use it for dressing up, and you lumped your style in with dressing up. You specifically picked Goth because you thought goth made you hotter. Thats why you didnt pick clown as a style choice. 

So you cant say you are dressing up, you are trying to be specifically hotter and gother as an identity choice.

If someone said dont be Goth today dress up as a clown instead you would have said 'no way, in fact I am insulted, you think I look like a clown?' That's because you weren't dressing up as a Goth you were a goth by style choice, because you thought it was beautiful. You also probably thought goth men were attractive and trying to attract them.

This is what Leo is saying when he is saying women use makeup for beauty. You wouldnt put make up on to look more retarded/less attractive for no reason. And it dosent feel good as you want to take it off when the days over. People who work out and have fit bodies dont want to take their muscles off when they go to bed, because they are uncomfortable.

A soccer player dosent put on his uniform and say I am dressing up as a soccer player. That would be dishonest he is a soccer player.

Yes, I did think that being goth made me more attractive. And I am motivated to dress for beauty. I mentioned as much in the posts above.

And I was attracted to guys who had a similar style back then. And I knew my clothing style would attract a compatible man.

That's one of the benefits of dressing in a niche style.

What's your point? I never said that these weren't components of my drive to dress in a gothy way. 

I already said that I like to use dressing up to feel beautiful and more empowered.... as it makes the libidinal energy flow.

And certainly there are both sexual and social components that factor into that.

But the identity went beyond something relational and had to do more with how I feel and see myself when I have a certain appearance. 

It's just that, if I look a certain way, I feel like the best version of myself and that I'm really expressing myself fully.

Still not sure what you're getting at here.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

50 minutes ago, Hojo said:

Beauty and womens survival goes deep, I am learning. It goes beyond their logic into schizophrenia territory.

I think it has to do with narcissus myth. They take 5k pictures of themselves in 1 day.

HAHAHA - I am no selfie queen. 

Are you an artist yourself? Why does anyone do anything they do? We are each unique souls existing in bodies, expressing ourselves through form and manipulation of matter. I do the things I do to please myself. I have faced criticism over how I present myself my entire life. The opinions of others are just external to me - and peoples opinions on art and aesthetics are varied and wide. 

I implore you to remove the elements of your thought process that are making a moral judgement. Because it is evident in what you say, and how you say it.

I can be a blank canvas - which I stated above I am perfectly happy being. Nothing about how I appear at any one time will influence me living life. I don't think on it, I just immerse myself in process.

You can certainly use pants as an artistic expression - through style.

There are certainly those who use makeup/style as a way simply to attract others. Or to comply with trends. I just happen to be someone who does not look to cover, but enhance. Express. It is part of my energy. Makeup & clothing are tools to be used in any way we please

You are the actions you take. A sum of habits. That's all.

 

[Hojo]

@Natasha Tori MaruMy argument was with the fact that you are covering something and denying you are doing it. If I paint on my canvas I dont go around saying I am not covering it in paint. I am hiding its blandness because i want it to be noticed.

If I walk around in pants I cant deny they are covering my genitals.

Why dont you paint on a canvas and instead your face? If you never could wear makeup again how much of yourself is invested in your beauty? Could you go on only doing paintings?

60-70 percent of the pop dosent wear makeup and wouldnt care to do it or think about it.

I bet you couldnt not do it because you desperately need to be looked at.

 

Edited June 11 by Hojo

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Identity is deeply intertwined with that's good for one's survival. So makeup is good for survival and then a girl also turns it into a passion, a hobby, an art, a career, and an identity. It all blends together so it feels organic and natural. So that then she can honestly claim: This is just the true ME!

If it felt like a front to her, the illusion would not be real.

Likewise, Jordan Peterson genuinely believes the shit he is selling. He lives in his own self-constructed reality bubble. So does Hitler. So does Bin Laden. So does a Zionist. So does an Incel. Etc.

Identity enmeshes itself with whatever helps its survival, like tofu soaks up any flavor it's cooked with.

Sure, identity is wrapped up in survival... and fashion choices are part of that.

But for me, it's more about clearing the channel to express whatever happens to be there.

Like, before I started dressing in the goth style when I was a teenager, I had a lot of blockages when it came to self-expression and confidence. I was just a nervous wreck.

Then, when I started dressing that way, the style was so full of archetypes and art and music, that I could find outlets for expression and confidence that I didn't know before. And I felt so much more confident because I liked the way I looked.

And it was through the conduit of my personal style at the time, that I found a lot of my untapped potential. And I was able to use that identity to develop my artistic skills when I was a teenager, as that also got woven into my identity.

So, I wouldn't trivialize the importance of identity and personal style as it pertains to self-growth and self-discovery.

Of course, when I was 20, I had my first experiences of ego transcendence. And I misunderstood them and tried to destroy my sense of identity all-together by resisting any identity drivers. But that just put me in a disempowered state, and I became really small and fell into a very narrow conception of myself where I tried to become a non-entity.

And I abided in that identity-resistant state for about 5 or 6 years, feeling like I was painted into a corner, as I extracted the wrong lessons from those experiences. And after that I decided to tentatively re-integrate identity back into my life.

And my relationship with life has been a lot better since then.

So, I see a lot of potentials for channeling "harder-to-reach" parts of the self through creative expressions... including make-up and fashion.

Like, in my most recent medicine journey, I encountered this really soft part of myself that has never had the right environmental and identity-based conduits to be integrated into my conscious expressions. 

So, I'd like to experiment a bit with exploring that softness through fashion and make-up and other forms of creative expression.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

11 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori MaruMy argument was with the fact that you are covering something and denying you are doing it. If I paint on my canvas I dont go around saying I am not covering it in paint. I am hiding its blandness because i want it to be noticed.

If I walk around in pants I cant deny they are covering my genitals.

Why dont you paint on a canvas and instead your face? If you never could wear makeup again how much of yourself is invested in your beauty? Could you go on only doing paintings?

60-70 percent of the pop dosent wear makeup and wouldnt care to do it or think about it.

I bet you couldnt not do it because you desperately need to be looked at.

Go have a look at the art thread on these forums - you will see my oil on canvas works.

You're views on what constitute art, style and artistic expression are quite narrow in scope.

You should consider: What is art?

If I style my hair and tie it up - what am I covering up? If I put on eyeliner, am I trying to cover a .5mm amount on skin around my eyes?

You are speaking to someone who has been to multiple nudist festivals.

The purpose is not to cover, this is simply a side effect.

[Hojo]

@Natasha Tori Maru Tying up your hair is not covering up,

Eyeliner is clearly makeup so it is. Yes putting concealer on is makeup and is covering up.

I am saying you are so full of yourself and your beauty that you have decided that your body is so beautiful that people should pay attention to, and need to see, and have lied to yourself that its not ego but for art and expression. Thats the harsh way because you are not understanding what I am saying in the other ways.

Average people dont do that or think about that.

Edited June 11 by Hojo

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori MaruMy argument was with the fact that you are covering something and denying you are doing it. If I paint on my canvas I dont go around saying I am not covering it in paint. I am hiding its blandness because i want it to be noticed.

If I walk around in pants I cant deny they are covering my genitals.

Why dont you paint on a canvas and instead your face? If you never could wear makeup again how much of yourself is invested in your beauty? Could you go on only doing paintings?

 

I don't think you understand how make-up works.

Make-up has coverage, sure. Like foundation can cover over an uneven skin tone or small blemishes.

But unless the make-up is extreme... it is just an enhancement of what is already there, which is what she called it.

Like, my daily make-up routine is just throwing on some reddish pink lipstick, filling in the sparse areas of my brows, and darkening my upper lash line a bit. I might put a bit of blush on if I'm feeling it.

It's not really covering a whole lot... just enhancing what's already there.

And even a full make-up look tends to just be an enhancement of what's there for most women.

But painting on a canvas is a different type of expression compared to make-up and fashion, as the latter is about the embodiment of a certain persona.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Hojo Why are you fixating on the covering aspect? 

Since the flavour of your posts are quite judgement driven, I think you are attempting to dig out some hidden motivation to suite a frame you are bringing to the conversation. 

26 minutes ago, Hojo said:

I bet you couldnt not do it because you desperately need to be looked at.

I don't have preference either way.

Check yourself mate.

[Hojo]

@Natasha Tori MaruIts not fixation the argument is that women use makeup for beauty and you women are arguing that its for art when its clearly for beauty and keep lying over and over. You said you arent covering anything up you are doing art. ART is covering something up. That something is you. You are wearing make up for beauty.

The only one reason for wearing makeup to look more retarded was a clown on Halloween.

Edited June 11 by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori MaruIts not fixation the argument is that women use makeup for beauty and you women are arguing that its for art when its clearly for beauty and keep lying over and over. You said you arent covering anything up you are doing art. ART is covering something up. That something is you. You are wearing make up for beauty.

You could argue it is covering it up. The more accurate term would be manipulating visuals.

Art isn't necessarily covering something up. Art also isn't necessarily beauty.

You are attempting to tell me why I do something. You can never know me. Can never know why I do what I do.

I must threaten you in some way for you to be so derogatory. I hope you find peace and healing. I hope life becomes better for you.

Offense can only be taken.

Good day.

[Leo Gura]

Art is not covering anything up.

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori MaruIts not fixation the argument is that women use makeup for beauty and you women are arguing that its for art when its clearly for beauty and keep lying over and over. You said you arent covering anything up you are doing art. ART is covering something up. That something is you. You are wearing make up for beauty.

The only one reason for wearing makeup to look more retarded was a clown on Halloween.

Do you have some issue with women wearing make-up?

You seem to be getting very judgmental about it and really focusing on the idea that make-up covers things up.

Even if hypothetically "covering things up" was the primary reason why women wear make-up and it weren't about self-expression at all, what would be so bad about that from your perspective?

[Leo Gura]

Clothes cover things up.

Who walks around naked?

Edited June 11 by Leo Gura

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Clothes over things up.

Who walks around naked?

People who want indecent exposure charges?

We have nudist cycling clubs in Melbourne - they roam around the summer months in the indie areas.

It's like a wall of wang coming at you 

Edited June 11 by Natasha Tori Maru
Titties too! Forgot the titties

[Deziree]

Makeup is not a about art or beauty. It's about hiding flaws, perfecting the face to beauty standards, looking better, basically covering up what one would look like without it. Because for a lot of women, the bare face doesn't look good, at least in their own eyes not satisfactory enough so they try to make it look better. This is basically covering up. It says it - make up. 

Edited June 11 by Deziree

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 minutes ago, Deziree said:

Makeup is not a about art or beauty. 

???

[Emerald]

55 minutes ago, Deziree said:

Makeup is not a about art or beauty. It's about hiding flaws, perfecting the face to beauty standards, looking better, basically covering up what one would look like without it. Because for a lot of women, the bare face doesn't look good, at least in their own eyes not satisfactory enough so they try to make it look better. This is basically covering up. It says it - make up. 

You understand so little about the value of Femininity and creative expression.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Tying up your hair is not covering up,

Eyeliner is clearly makeup so it is. Yes putting concealer on is makeup and is covering up.

I am saying you are so full of yourself and your beauty that you have decided that your body is so beautiful that people should pay attention to, and need to see, and have lied to yourself that its not ego but for art and expression. Thats the harsh way because you are not understanding what I am saying in the other ways.

Average people dont do that or think about that.

This is legit garbage and verbal diarrhoea.

I didn't see this post earlier, or you edited the shit out of it.

You should be ashamed of this 

[Jirh]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Fitness can be done for health, not appearance.

I exercise to keep my health up. Being fat is not healthy. Lifting weight is good for bones, muscle, heart, mood, longevity, etc.

Jogging 30 min per day reduces ass cancer risk by like 35%.

Both health and appearance are important for survival. There is no difference in principle for why anyone would choose to pursue either or both or none.

Health is not an altruistic motive. It's just a motive, like physical appearance.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Jirh said:

Both health and appearance are important for survival. There is no difference in principle for why anyone would choose to pursue either or both or none.

Health is not an altruistic motive. It's just a motive, like physical appearance.

That is a good point.

However some things are more objectively healthy than others.

Putting a ring through your nose doesn't increase health nor get you laid.