Atheist to New Age to Jesus

[Nemra]

15 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

And those are your beliefs.

No.

You will understand when you question beliefs.

15 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

The beliefs that are delusional are the ones that you actually think are true.  

There is a difference between having beliefs, by being careful without holding them tight, and using belief to realize truth.

Questioning and holding or acquiring beliefs are diametrically opposed to each other.

There isn't a recognition of truth in beliefs, as they are basically assumptions about reality that are convincing to you, where emotions are used as a fuel.

Edited June 9 by Nemra

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

No.

You will understand when you question beliefs.

There is a difference between having beliefs, by being careful without holding them tight, and using belief to realize truth.

Questioning and holding or acquiring beliefs are diametrically opposed to each other.

There isn't a recognition of truth in beliefs, as they are basically assumptions about reality that are convincing to you, where emotions are used as a fuel.

But when I said beliefs can be a method of focus you immediately said “no”.   You didn’t entertain the idea or ponder what would have to happen for it to be true.   So there is an assumption there so deep that it is viewed as obvious and not as a belief.  But it is a belief.

[Nemra]

21 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

But when I said beliefs can be a method of focus you immediately said “no”.

I don't know that, perhaps it is. But not for truth-seeking.

[kbone]

 

2 hours ago, Nemra said:

No.

You will understand when you question beliefs.

There is a difference between having beliefs, by being careful without holding them tight, and using belief to realize truth.

Questioning and holding or acquiring beliefs are diametrically opposed to each other.

There isn't a recognition of truth in beliefs, as they are basically assumptions about reality that are convincing to you, where emotions are used as a fuel.

Would you say that Truth/Self-Realization is acausal and/or requires something like grace (for want of a better word)?

I agree with the idea that there isn't recognition of Truth in beliefs, though even a word, or a sound, or any out-of-the-blue kind of dealio can be present as a memory of 'the event'. But I would not say such a word/sound/dealio caused the Realization.

 

[Jodistrict]

17 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I don't know that, perhaps it is. But not for truth-seeking.

“The first condition of knowing the truth is to believe in it. You must believe in a thing first, before you can know it. Knowledge follows belief, and only through that belief can you reach knowledge.”

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 3  

[Nemra]

21 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

“The first condition of knowing the truth is to believe in it. You must believe in a thing first, before you can know it. Knowledge follows belief, and only through that belief can you reach knowledge.”

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 3  

Sorry, but I disagree.

[kbone]

39 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

“The first condition of knowing the truth is to believe in it. You must believe in a thing first, before you can know it. Knowledge follows belief, and only through that belief can you reach knowledge.”

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 3  

I wonder what the context was in which Vivekananda said this. In many schools of Hindu thought, the general goal is to merge the Jivatman (individual soul/embodied self) with the Atman (Supreme Soul/Self). As such, if one doesn't at least believe in the potential for such transformation, they likely would not even begin the search. The mind is quite aware of what it feels like to live as an embodied self, though it is not really sure what that means or how to think otherwise. The mind knows nothing about what they are seeking or what the Supreme Self even refers to, so it is something akin to a wild goose chase with a certain degree of faith (maybe that's a better word for the quote, as it's strongerish than 'belief').

What they often don't talk about is the amazing transformative power of futility, which involves the seeing through and letting go of beliefs. The big one often attributed to Realization is usually quite a doozy, and it levels a lot of preconceived notions of 'knowledge' itself, which is why in many langauges there is a distinction between two types of knoweldge (e.g., episteme versus gnosis in Greek, or saber versus conocer in Spanish).

However, if the Realization of Self does occur, what typically happens is that the story of how/what happened is more often than not ascribed to the culturally defined notions of cause and effect, such as the Jivatman merging with the Atman, which many in India are openly willing to accept if there's sufficient 'evidence'. That's not as easy in cultures based on a monotheistic order in which such a proclamation might be met with pitchforks, stonings, crucifixions, burnings at the steak, bannings, or institutionalization, hehe.

Edited June 9 by kbone

[Nemra]

47 minutes ago, kbone said:

Would you say that Truth/Self-Realization is acausal and/or requires something like grace (for want of a better word)?

If you didn't recognize a truth, would you want to know other truths?

47 minutes ago, kbone said:

I agree with the idea that there isn't recognition of Truth in beliefs, though even a word, or a sound, or any out-of-the-blue kind of dealio can be present as a memory of 'the event'. But I would not say such a word/sound/dealio caused the Realization.

But beliefs are not just words.

Beliefs themselves are direct, as in they happen in your experience, but what you believe in is not direct because there are unquestioned assumptions.

Using belief to recognize truth is never going to happen, because a person has already assumed it's true from the beginning. If something bad happens to that person, he/she must either admit the truth or continue believing their previous beliefs. If he/she admits the truth, then what is stopping him/her from questioning the other beliefs? And why should he/she use belief as a method for seeking truth?

Edited June 9 by Nemra

[Jodistrict]

23 minutes ago, kbone said:

I wonder what the context was in which Vivekananda said this.

In this lecture, Vivekananda is explaining the necessity of faith (shraddha in Vedanta) as a prerequisite for spiritual realization. He argues that belief in the possibility of truth—whether in God, the soul, or ultimate reality—creates the mental and emotional foundation for pursuing and experiencing it. This belief is not blind but a starting point that inspires effort, practice, and eventual direct knowledge through spiritual disciplines like Bhakti Yoga or Jnana Yoga.

[kbone]

2 minutes ago, Nemra said:

1- If you didn't recognize a truth, would you want to know other truths?

2- But beliefs are not just words.

3- Beliefs themselves are direct, as in they happen in your experience, but what you believe in is not direct because there are unquestioned assumptions.

4- Using belief to recognize truth is never going to happen, because a person has already assumed it's true from the beginning. If something bad happens to that person, they must either admit the truth or continue believing their previous beliefs. If he/she admits the truth, then what is stopping him/her from questioning the other beliefs? And why should he use belief as a method for seeking truth?

1- I don't throw the word Truth around as such, but I am also not sure what you mean here.

2- I didn't say they were. But yes, the menu is not the meal.

3- I agree that beliefs are assumptions, perhaps questioned to some extent, perhaps not. They are usually about cause and effect, which is why I asked the original question.

4- This last question is more to the point I was attempting to get to originally. To be clear, I only use capital 'T' Truth with respect to existential questions that at least somewhat involve a search for God/Allah/Source/Awareness, so in a way I am mostly agreeing with you here. But, what I mention in my other post to @Jodistrict is that yes, perhaps there's likely a belief in mind present to even begin the search for the believed outcome, but what is Realized is incomprehensible by the mind, so much so that it defies the consensual trance cause-and-effect paradigm. As the mind struggles to come to terms with it (and often think it has 'lost' it once the bliss bunny stuff has played out), it continues to burn through previously held notions of 'reality', whatever those were. But it's not really until after the Realization that the whole burning up of beliefs is understood for what it is. As such, even the principles of cause and effect reasoning are relegated to worldly events, not transcendental ones... especially Truth/Self Realization. That is a whole other dealio.

[Nemra]

@kbone, but why would you want to torture yourself by believing if you understand that any assumption could be true or false?

Why use belief as a method for truth if you already consider that your assumptions are true?

What is there to believe if you know the truth?

Why should you accumulate beliefs if you don't have to?

Why not question? What is stopping that?

You can believe when you act, but why would you waste your time if you are seeking the truth?

Can belief work without an assumption?

😁

Edited June 9 by Nemra

[kbone]

3 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

In this lecture, Vivekananda is explaining the necessity of faith (shraddha in Vedanta) as a prerequisite for spiritual realization. He argues that belief in the possibility of truth—whether in God, the soul, or ultimate reality—creates the mental and emotional foundation for pursuing and experiencing it. This belief is not blind but a starting point that inspires effort, practice, and eventual direct knowledge through spiritual disciplines like Bhakti Yoga or Jnana Yoga.

Right, perhaps faith is qualitatively distinct from simple belief. Faith is an aspect of the willingness to look; whereas, self-honesty is an aspect of the willingness to let go of beliefs when they are seen as unnecessary. 

For the sake of clarity, I always found it a good idea to distinguish between 'experience' and 'realization'. Experience is something requiring an experiencer, which is basically the assumed separate volitional person (SVP) that is doing the searching for and/or the merging with the Atman (call it what you will). Interestingly, it is the belief in that SVP that is at question if one takes up the seeking admonished by traditional Advaita, so there's that. So, the Self-Realization expressed in Advaita Vedanta could be expressed as the Hindu version of the merging of Jivatman with Atman, Buddhism's no Absolute self, Jesus's realization that "I and the Father are One", Pure Awareness, and perhaps Taoisms alignment with the Tao itself (that they express 'the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao' is the clue).

So seeking is experienced, but the Realization of Atman/God/Awareness/Self/___ is distinct, as it levels all such previous beliefs and notions about reality in a radically different perspective that defies even language itself. It is my suggestion that such a Realization is not born of the mind, but is transcendent of it and/or prior to it (i.e., once ___ is realized and stabilized in/as). Furthermore, at least in how I sometimes try to express it, the Realization was more like an Awareness of/as an absence of thingness, a vastness that was never left,,, but it was the mind's ignorance that clouded its oneness with ever-Present Truth. There was never any other to seek, just the removal of the ignorance of Truth. That ignorance is born of the mind, the very tool used to negotiate and navigate the wondrous world as it appears. But, it also houses all sorts of distorted beliefs about the nature of existence that leave the mind wanting, because deep down somewhere in its chaos, it knows that it is ignoring its oneness with Source. It may even be what the Garden of Eden story is actually all about.

It does take a deep willingness/devotion (Bakhti) to cut through the mind's shenanigans and potentially get a glimpse of what Hindu's refer to as Supreme Knowledge/Gnosis (Jnana), but what is Realized is not some'thing' you can learn, and it is unexplainable. But all such seeking and existential questioning can come to an end, as one is quite aware of/as the vastness and purity of Awareness at the very core of one's being and in which all of Existence arises (the words are failing, but that's OK). Once seen, it cannot be unseen. The bell cannot be unrung. The certainty is oddly unassailable. I cannot say whether one needs such disciplines, but I would say that they are likely more like potential precursors or tools used to prepare the mind, perhaps make it prone to Realization itself. That's why I asked the question about grace in my original question to @Nemra.

Gotta go. Will check back later.

[kbone]

34 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@kbone, but why would you want to torture yourself by believing if you understand that any assumption could be true or false?

Why use belief as a method for truth if you already consider that your assumptions are true?

What is there to believe if you know the truth?

Why should you accumulate beliefs if you don't have to?

Why not question? What is stopping that?

You can believe when you act, but why would you waste your time if you are seeking the truth?

Can belief work without an assumption?

😁

It seems these questions may indicate we are talking past one another and/or not understanding each other's intent. I'll let it go.

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Spiral Wizard said:

genuinely consider, could it be true that Jesus is legit and a truer path through this 3 dimensional reality?

Christianity is an idol-worshiping personality cult.

Worshiping a human is evil.

Edited June 10 by Leo Gura

[Spiral Wizard]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Christianity is an idol-worshiping personality cult.

Worshiping a human is evil.

Love that meme  

Let me play the devils advocate here: you mention a lot that the Devil sneaks in and corrupts/inverts the holiest. Consider that Christians reject 5-MeO “I am God” experiences as spiritual deception, no matter how clear, loving or light-filled. They explain it as either demonic, egoic projection, or metaphysically confused. The experience may be real, but the interpretation (that you are God) is, in their eyes, the original sin repeated. There is God in you and you can basically have temporary union but you are not the whole of God. That’s what satan tried, rebellion against the submission to God and wanting to be God by themselves. Even the holiest saints are still creatures, not the Creator. 

So what if Jesus is literally God? Not merely an enlightened human or even something like an Avatar, but the one and only God incarnated in flesh. 

If true, could it be that psychedelic insight is the highest deception of the devil? And what would that explain his impact on 2000+ years of history? In theory it justifies their worshipping but is it true in practice? I guess the only way to find out would be to become a wholeheartedly devout Christian and see if God fills our heart with more pure Love and Peace than we have ever experienced. However, that would require the type of self sacrifice Jesus talks about and most aren’t willing to undergo. Who are we going to trust, our own egos judgement or submitting ourselves in devotion to Jesus in faith? It’s a tricky conundrum. Steaks are high! 🥩 

Edited June 10 by Spiral Wizard

[Leo Gura]

Isn't it obvious that the truth path is just truth?

If you want truth, just seek truth!

Cut out the middle-men.

It should be equally obvious that truth is not a human nor anything humans invented.

You can't get truth by believing anything nor anyone.

Edited June 10 by Leo Gura

[Spiral Wizard]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Isn't it obvious that the truth path is just truth?

If you want truth, just seek truth!

Cut out the middle-men.

It should be equally obvious that truth is not a human nor anything humans invented.

That makes sense. 

The question is, what method are you using to discover truth? Could it be that the truth is in devotion rather than realization? And are you purely trying to understand it through the mind or also through the heart and gut? 

What would happen if you surrendered all you know and entered into full devotion towards Love until there is no more object of Love but only Love. Could this pure devotion be a transforming / heart opening factor in daily life no matter what you devote yourself to? 

And could it be that if devoted to Jesus, his spirit aids in that heart opening process? 

 

Edited June 10 by Spiral Wizard

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Spiral Wizard said:

The question is, what method are you using to discover truth?

This is only one method to reach truth.

Sit down and question everything until it kills you.

Quote

And could it be that if devoted to Jesus, his spirit aids in that heart opening process? 

That will not work because ego will confuse love with positive feelings and survival.

Reaching true Love requires a truth-first approach. You must first question everything to death. Then you can realize Love. After you realize Truth. Without Truth your love will be false.

If you go after truth, you will end up with both Truth and Love. If you go after love you will end up with false love.

Edited June 10 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Spiral Wizard said:

I guess the only way to find out would be to become a wholeheartedly devout Christian and see if God fills our heart with more pure Love and Peace than we have ever experienced.

No. That's not the way.

The way is to realize you are God. And thereby you will realize Infinite Love.

I've done it. Christians have not. Christians cannot even tell you what God or Love is. I can. I have. Because I did.

None of these Christian fuckers know what God is. They have neither Truth nor Love. Which is why they worship a human idol.

Edited June 10 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

Swami Vivekanda believed in a harmonizing Love (Bhakti yoga) and Inquiry (Jnana Yoga).

Hear are a few quotes:

"Religion is realization; not talk, nor doctrine, nor theories, however beautiful they may be”

“Love God with all your heart, but do not cease to question and discriminate. The truth will stand the test of scrutiny, and love will carry you to it."

” Questioning refines the intellect, while love purifies the emotions, and both prepare the mind for realizing the ultimate truth."

"Bhakti is not belief; it is the direct perception of the truth through love.”