Is this the evolution of polyamory? Aubrey Marcus podcast)

[Lyubov]

He’s not fooling me. 

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

He’s not fooling me. 

But, like, what's the alternative? If he isn't happy with monogamy then it wouldn't have worked out anyway.

If she doesn't want it, it's her responsibility to leave. It's a good lesson for her.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Xonas Pitfall]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But, like, what's the alternative? If he isn't happy with monogamy then it wouldn't have worked out anyway.

If she doesn't want it, it's her responsibility to leave. It's a good lesson for her.

Hmm...

The alternative is him being honest with her and saying he doesn’t love her as much as she loves him, that he wants more options, sex, exploration, and not being committed to her in the way she wants, and the way she originally said in the podcast she always wished and longed for. This is where a solid example of Leosplaining  would’ve been so much better - no fluff, no “spirituality,” no talk of a “spiritual pathway” or “next-level relationship evolution” or any of that. The girl needs a reality check, not a spiritual brainwashing word-salad ritual.

Bonus points if he had any respect for her, he would’ve taken in all the times she said on the podcast, “I died, and died, and died. So many boundaries were pushed. This whole relationship, I felt like my limits were extended. All I ever wanted was to feel safe, secure, and loved.” If he’s spiritually “evolved” and a present, attuned lover who knows his partner, he should’ve recognized that and helped her stay grounded.

I don’t mind him wanting polyamory at all - that’s not the issue. But the spiritual posturing is cringe. I do agree she should find courage and leave, but he does not seem "loving" or "spiritual" here. But I could be wrong, idk! 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

The alternative is him being honest with her and saying he doesn’t love her as much as she loves him, that he wants more options, sex, exploration, and not being committed to her in the way she wants, and the way she originally said in the podcast she always wished and longed for.

But he did effectively say/do that. She decided to stick around.

Yes, he somewhat coerced her to rethink her relationship plans. But she seems to be okay with that. It's not like she really knew what she wanted. People's plans and expections can change. She was willing to explore a new kind of relationship, which comes with rewards and risks.

As long as he was honest with her, then I don't see a problem here. She has gotten all kinds of benefits.

Maybe letting go of what she wished and longed for is not so bad for her. Monogamy is not necessarily as great as it seems. It gets old after a while. She has a more exciting and dynamic life now. She can choose to like that or leave.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But, like, what's the alternative? If he isn't happy with monogamy then it wouldn't have worked out anyway.

If she doesn't want it, it's her responsibility to leave. It's a good lesson for her.

It is definitely a good lesson for her to learn how to choose herself over maintaining a relationship with an incompatible person.

She can definitely use this as a growth experience after she gets out of it and unpacks the situation from a distance.

But it's a very hard lesson, and it makes it far more difficult when your partner is framing regular polyamory in a totally different way and calling it "radical monogamy" and framing it as some higher conscious relationship evolution that's better than monogamy. 

Like, if he was like "Hey, I want for us to be a polyamorous couple and to bring another woman into the relationship. How do you feel about that?"  that would put her in a much better position to make a sovereign decision. It would still be difficult, but at least he'd be being straight-forward.

It's still crappy to spring that on someone. But at least it's being up-front about it.

Instead, he's framing this polyamorous throuple situation as an "evolution" and a more spiritual way of having a relationship.... which frames monogamy as a less evolved choice.

And in framing it that way, he's influencing her into a mindset where her resistance to being in a non-monogamous situation is something less spiritual evolved to be transcend, and it's causing her to see her boundaries as an impediment to her spiritual evolution.

And it's also calling polyamory monogamy... thus muddying the waters further. 

Plus, he's weaving together narratives to God told him to go on Tinder... and that God told him to impregnate both women.

I saw that you said you have no issue with what he's doing and that they seem to be in a higher consciousness situation. But if this doesn't scream RED FLAG, I don't know what does.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

It read to me like - the wife didn't have strong boundaries to begin with. Perhaps some trauma in her past, incorrect love shown to her in infancy.

He was getting all the benefits, while never having to compromise. She was struggling between wanting to be with him, and her realisation that he was unable to provide the love she wanted. For the wife in this scenario - she wasn't getting any benefits (from her perspective) - because the only thing she placed value on is love and soul communion to her alone. Monogamous love.

Having healed myself from bad boundaries, when you have them, you don't even know what you want. You can't advocate for yourself because you don't know who that 'self' is, and what it wants and needs. This is rooted in past trauma - you weren't shown the way to take proper care of your needs as a child, as your parents didn't know how to love you in the way that taught self agency.

It's very, very difficult to understand this cycle of being trapped in abuse unless you have experienced it. This is why some people who haven't experienced it do not understand - leading to the question 'Why not just leave?' As this is actually the most logical solution.

Like experiencing awakening, or having an orgasm. You really have to have personally experienced boundary issues and healed from them to instantly see it in others.

So the lesson here is indeed that she needed to leave, and advocate for herself. 

I have compassion for her and could never judge her, as she is a wounded soul. She is walking along bleeding through her life, and is doomed to remain in this cycle, unless she learns the lesson to advocate for herself.

None of this means she deserves any of this suffering. It just is what it is. C'est la vie

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

she wasn't getting any benefits (from her perspective) 

That's not true though from what she said and how she acts. She is clearly friendly with the other girl and benefits from that relationship.

You have to be careful not to project your assumptions onto her.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not true through from what she said and how she acts. She is clearly friendly with the other girl and benefits from that.

You have to be careful not to project your assumptions onto her.

Yes, of course - regarding the last line. As I am aware that my assumptions are just my reading.

I should perhaps, ah! Rephrase this slightly - that the cons outweighed the benefits, in her eyes. I say this as she reads to me as being in profound pain. 

More accurate?

Edited May 30 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And it's also calling polyamory monogamy... thus muddying the waters further. 

That part I agree is delusional.

It's not monogamy. It's rather typical polyamory.

Quote

Plus, he's weaving together narratives to God told him to go on Tinder... and that God told him to impregnate both women.

I don't really have a problem with that. Yes, Universal Mind can give insights like that. I mean, he is God.

If he feels it is a good idea to impregnate both of them, who are you to say he is wrong? He could be right.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

It read to me like - the wife didn't have strong boundaries to begin with. Perhaps some trauma in her past, incorrect love shown to her in infancy.

He was getting all the benefits, while never having to compromise. She was struggling between wanting to be with him, and her realisation that he was unable to provide the love she wanted. For the wife in this scenario - she wasn't getting any benefits (from her perspective) - because the only thing she placed value on is love and soul communion to her alone. Monogamous love.

Having healed myself from bad boundaries, when you have them, you don't even know what you want. You can't advocate for yourself because you don't know who that 'self' is, and what it wants and needs. This is rooted in past trauma - you weren't shown the way to take proper care of your needs as a child, as your parents didn't know how to love you in the way that taught self agency.

It's very, very difficult to understand this cycle of being trapped in abuse unless you have experienced it. This is why some people who haven't experienced it do not understand - leading to the question 'Why not just leave?' As this is actually the most logical solution.

Like experiencing awakening, or having an orgasm. You really have to have personally experienced boundary issues and healed from them to instantly see it in others.

So the lesson here is indeed that she needed to leave, and advocate for herself. 

I have compassion for her and could never judge her, as she is a wounded soul. She is walking along bleeding through her life, and is doomed to remain in this cycle, unless she learns the lesson to advocate for herself.

None of this means she deserves any of this suffering. It just is what it is. C'est la vie

Well said. 

When we have had past dynamics that make us feel like we only deserve scraps, it can set us up for relationships where we give and give to the other person who only takes and siphons from us.

And in this dynamic, it's that common pattern of sacrificing herself and her boundaries just to avoid losing the relationship. And of course, any narrative that explains away the pain would feel quite relieving, which is likely why she's going along with Aubrey's narrative that he's woven.

And I'm hoping that the public reaction to this has validated her feelings a bit more... as she seems to have bought into the perspective that her feelings of aversion and her boundaries are something to transcend... as opposed to something to be honored.

If she leaves, I believe that hindsight will be 20/20 on this situation.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

the cons outweighed the benefits, in her eyes.

That is your opinion.

She clearly says otherwise.

Is she lying to herself? Possibly. But you can't just assume that. You have to be open to her speaking what is true for her.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That part I agree is delusional.

It's not monogamy. It's rather typical polyamory.

I don't really have a problem with that. Yes, Universal Mind can give insights like that. I mean, he is God.

Convenient how God chimed in with its absolute authority to encourage him to scroll around on Tinder (given his past issues with infidelity).

It's like a crackhead who is trying to convince himself that he wants to stop smoking crack. And he was about to! But then God chimed in and commands him to reach out to his dealer. 

And then, later on, God tells him that he even needs to start making his own crack.

But he's not REALLY doing crack. He's smoking spiritual evolution powder... which will awaken all of humanity.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Convenient how God chimed in with its absolute authority to encourage him to scroll around on Tinder (given his past issues with infidelity).

It's like a crackhead who is trying to convince himself that he wants to stop smoking crack. And he was about to! But then God chimed in and commands him to reach out to his dealer. 

That's how inspiration works.

That kind of cynicism could be applied to monogamy. How convenient when a priest blesses your marriage or children! How convenience God inspired you to have children or love your partner. Of course God wants what you want for yourself.

Of course everything spiritual humans do gets tangled up with survival.

This love tricycle could be a great growth opportunity for the 3 of them. In which case God approves

Or maybe God wants to teach them a painful lesson about self-deception.

That is none of your business.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That's how inspiration works.

That kind of cynisism could be applied to monogamy. How convenient when a priest blesses your marriage or children.

Of course everything spiritual humans do gets tangled up with survival.

This is a silly analogy, because these two examples have literally nothing to do with one another... other than that they generally pertain to relationships.

Clearly Aubrey rationalizing his use of dating apps and traversing the previously agreed-upon boundaries of his relationship through the notion that God commanded it... and a priest going through the ritual of blessing a marriage are totally different scenarios.

And that's because the priest blessing the marriage isn't a rationalization that's deliberately used to deceive one's self into acting selfishly and committing infidelity. (the relationship wasn't open at the time, and he's had previous issues with infidelity)

Just like a priest blessing a marriage has nothing to do with a crackhead using "God's command" to rationalize why he should call up his dealer and do some crack.

I think the miscommunication here is that you believe that I'm taking a "pro-monogamy" and "anti-polyamory" stance.

But my issue isn't about monogamy versus polyamory... at all.

If people are polyamorous, it's not my thing... but I have no issue with it.

My best friend and her husband are polyamorous, and it works because I know that my friend likes a lot of sexual variety and so does her husband.

So, it works out really well for them. I honestly don't think she would be able to sustain a marriage without it because it would be going so far against the grain of her personality... and they've been together for like 17 years.

So, my issue isn't about polyamory at all.

It is about unconsciously creating narratives for the sake of self-deception with religious and spiritual accouterments... and then roping others into that self-deception.

It's no different than a crackhead convincing himself into hearing a commandment from God to do more crack.

Of course, it could happen. But what's more likely? That God commanded Aubrey to scroll around on Tinder looking for attractive women? Or that Aubrey wanted to scroll around on Tinder looking for attractive women, and that he convinced himself that God told him to?

Occam's razor is on the latter.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is your opinion.

She clearly says otherwise.

Is she lying to herself? Possibly. But you can't just assume that. You have to be open to her speaking what is true for her.

True true. As is true also for your analysis

[Emerald]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is your opinion.

She clearly says otherwise.

Is she lying to herself? Possibly. But you can't just assume that. You have to be open to her speaking what is true for her.

There's certainly evidence from what she said that she is lying to herself and rationalizing her boundaries away using Aubrey's narrative.

She's been talking about how she keeps having to work really hard to open up her boundaries and push herself past her limits to do this "more evolved form of radical monogamy." 

And she had mentioned that it's painful to her and that it's challenging.

But you see, she doesn't even really NEED to lie to herself.

Aubrey has created a convenient narrative for her to lie to herself through that she would not have come to on her own if there wasn't a really high stakes decision attached to it. 

The thing is, if she honored those boundaries she's trying to transcend as valid and was honest with herself she'd be sitting down the barrel of a divorce from a man she really loves and has formed a lot of attachment to over the years.

This should all be pretty obvious knowing how human nature operates. 

Denial is the first stage of grief... where we find any way that we can to avoid a loss.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's no different than a crackhead convincing himself into hearing a commandment from God to do more crack.

You are trivializing his motives by comparing it to a crackhead.

If God inspires him to find a wonderful partner to impregnant, that is fair game. That's a huge opportunity for practicing love. Not like a crackhead.

Quote

Of course, it could happen. But what's more likely? That God commanded Aubrey to scroll around on Tinder looking for attractive women? Or that Aubrey wanted to scroll around on Tinder looking for attractive women, and that he convinced himself that God told him to?

Aubrey IS God. He is guiding himself and others around him towards a higher kind of love.

Isn't that obvious?

That's what his own channel and life is about.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

True true. As is true also for your analysis

My analysis just takes her own words at face value.

#ListenToWomen

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I implore anyone in this conversation to look into the general internets reaction.

It's just as interesting & varied as the topic and dynamics itself!

Stealth edit - @Leo Gura Sly dog with the above! I C wut u did thar

Edited May 30 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You are trivializing his motives by comparing it to a crackhead.

If God inspires him to find a wonderful partner to impregnant, that is fair game. That's a huge opportunity for practicing love. Not like a crackhead.

Aubrey IS God. He is guiding himself and others around him towards a higher kind of love.

Isn't that obvious?

Hey Leo. God just commanded me to take all of your money away from you for your own good, while I keep it for safe keeping.

It's this new enlightened way where all of humanity is embraces a non-materialistic lifestyle. 

And I will guide you in the difficulties and aversions you'll feel as it is hard to open up your boundaries to let money flow out and love flow in.