Hardkill

Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

304 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Freedom does not guarantee equality nor law. Freedom is literally anything goes.

Nazis camps are an exercise of freedom.

The left are masters are banning any expression that deviates from their sense of normal.

Nazi camps are an exercise in freedom for Nazis... but a squelching of freedom for everyone else.

That's why I said there must be equality under the law for there to be true freedom, where one person's freedom ends where the other person's freedom begins.

Otherwise, if you don't have equality under the law, you'll get the dominant group claiming the "freedom to oppress" and the oppressed group getting stuck with little to no freedom.

Hence why freedom and equality can ONLY exist together. If you lack equality, you lack freedom. 


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6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Only if you admit that you were on your knees gobbling up that pussy:

"You are sticking it right in the heart with a sickle knife with your points - that the value of life and consciousness is higher than truth."

;)

There's a difference between earned and unearned kudos.


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8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Only if you admit that you were on your knees gobbling up that pussy:

"You are sticking it right in the heart with a sickle knife with your points - that the value of life and consciousness is higher than truth."

;)

>.>

<.<

 

Screenshot 2025-05-08 162612.jpg


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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1 minute ago, Emerald said:

You're once again trying to move the goal posts to a different argument to try to get me on weaker footing... because you know you've already lost the argument we're actually having.

You have this nasty habit of accusing me of things.

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

If you were actually honest, you'd recognize that your approach of nitpicking the left about accepting trans people will do NOTHING to achieve the economic vision you'd like see.

The issue is not trans people. The issue is that leftists have silly policy ideas which are both impractical and deeply unappealing to average people.

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Instead, if you want to achieve that economic vision, then we have to stop conceding to the right wing framing on social issues and personal freedom... as it weakens us and strengthens them.

I disagree. I do not see it as concession to call out bad ideas on my side. I am not going to be loyal to bad ideas just because I might agree with some on the right.

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

But you've already conceded that the right wing is the direction you want to go for freedom... the freedom to conform to conservative social norms or be prosecuted or thrown into some concentration camp.

There's no greater incarceration than the right wing conceptualization of freedom.

No, I am not stupid. I don't proclaim to want freedom. I want greater equality at the cost of freedom. That's the trade-off lefties gladly make.

I don't cloak myself in the banner of freedom because that's a thing for juveniles.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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19 minutes ago, zazen said:

Sane people are for equality but with quality control. You can’t have Drag queens in kids classrooms rooms - might as well roll in stripper pole to teach kids about self expression. Drag isn’t an identity but a performance with sexualized elements.

That’s the issue in America - everything has to be a spectacle and become idealogical. Veganism, lgbtq etc etc. They can’t just be allowed to exist organically, it must be imposed, elevated and pledged allegiance to.

You can have diversity whilst having discernment. With no discernment leftists are just detached from reality.

Who need right wing propaganda when you can just get normies, liberals, and leftists to spread their own anti-left pro-right wing propaganda?


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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's a difference between earned and unearned kudos.

How self-biased that yours was earned and mine was not.

Kudos for me but not for thee.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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15 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Emerald

On the point of freedom, perhaps we need distinctions to clarify that not all freedoms are equal - freedoms exist in relation to one another and some require constraint, in order for more essential and fundamental freedoms to exists.

What good are human rights, if a human can’t exist to enjoy them? Because we didn’t care enough about stability (safe streets) or national security (borders) ie survival.

The essential human right /  freedom, is to exist in the first place to experience further rights / freedoms.

- Existential freedoms = essential (ones required for survival, stability, security)

- Fundamental freedoms = fairness (for a just society with equality in front of the law)

- Important freedoms = valuable but secondary (enhances life but isn’t crucial, like consumer choices or sub cultural / artful expression )

Existential freedoms are for life itself, fundamental freedoms are for a dignified life, important freedoms are for a lifestyle.

Existential freedom enables life to exist, fundamental freedoms creates fairness in life, important freedoms enhance life. Enabling life to exist, is the pre-condition to having other freedoms that enhance the conditions of life.

The problem with leftists is that they mistake important freedoms for existential ones. Which is why when the right talks about safety and security they seem more in tune with reality - even if they layer on their flawed goofiness.

 

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Who need right wing propaganda when you can just get normies, liberals, and leftists to spread their own anti-left pro-right wing propaganda?

You lack nuance and discernment. See my comment above that adds those elements to your and Leo’s discussion of “freedom”.

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The right-wing has leftists beat on the freedom frame. Leftism is not about freedom, it is about equality. Libertarians are for freedom. And libertarians are stupid for it.

What you want is less freedom and more equality.

The right-wing is not truly for freedom either. Right-wing ideology and conservatism is really about hierarchy, order, and traditions.

Edited by Hardkill

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If you lack equality, you lack freedom. 

No. Freedom and equality are a trade-off. To get one you sacrifice the other.

Leftism is not freedom. You just want to call it freedom because you like that label. Leftism requires restriction of many freedoms for the sake of equality. This is why libertarians are mostly right-wingers.

You cannot have equality in a free market libertarian state.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

@Emerald

"I’m not on my knees—I’m just not afraid to stand where truth cuts deepest. If Leo’s take challenges your comforts, maybe it’s not blind allegiance—it’s just that truth has no need to flatter your politics. Razor-sharp may not make someone right, but dull thinking never does either."

Edited by Leo Gura
Removed offensive part

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The right-wing is not truly for freedom either. Right ideology and conservatism is really about hierarchy, order, and traditions.

Yes, of course. But optically the American right has co-opted the freedom frame. Leftists need to pass too many regulations to be the freedom party. 

It's hard to call yourself the freedom party when you want to take away guns, take away gas cars, regulate businesses a million ways, tax the hell out of people, force them into unions, force them into DEI, force vaccines, force globalism, force cancel culture.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Freedom and equality are a trade-off. To get one you sacrifice the other.

Leftism is not freedom. You just want to call it freedom because you like that label. Leftism requires restriction of many freedoms for the sake of equality. This is why libertarians are mostly right-wingers.

but left-wing policies that have granted civil rights and voting rights for racial minorities, women, the lgbtq+ community, etc. have restricted what kind of good freedoms?

Edited by Hardkill

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5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How self-biased that yours was earned and mine was not.

Kudos for me but not for thee.

In all honesty, really felt like @Emerald rationally presented an argument with a great example to illustrate the point.

I think what makes your points frustrating is you refuse to elaborate on some assumptions you are making.

This doesn't assist with making your point. You let the tone of arrogance attempt to reinforce a statement. That arrogance actually undermines your point.

You tend to get frustrated and persnippity when you judge someone as stupid for not grasping something that you do not wish to elaborate on.

This is just how I perceive a lot of these debates as the devolve.

 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You have this nasty habit of accusing me of things.

The issue is not trans people. The issue is that leftists have silly policy ideas which are both impractical and deeply unappealing to average people.

I disagree. I do not see it as concession to call out bad ideas on my side. I am not going to be loyal to bad ideas just because I might agree with some on the right.

No, I am not stupid. I don't proclaim to want freedom. I want greater equality at the cost of freedom. That's the trade-off lefties gladly make.

I don't cloak myself in the banner of freedom because that's a thing for juveniles.

I only accuse you of things that I'm observing you doing.

You do move the goal posts often. I've debated you enough times to notice that it's a pattern where you cherry pick what you consider to be the weak point of the argument and reframe and change the opposition's arguments as though the weak point of the argument is what the opposition is actually arguing.

For example, my argument is that your pattern of nitpicking the left about trans issues is rhetorically weak because it concedes power to the right wing frame. And I have posed to you wiser ways of dealing with this rhetoric that doesn't fragment the movement towards a populist economic vision and doesn't concede power and credibility to the right wing trans panic stuff.

The, you've tried to rope me into side arguments about the merits of socialism, the merits of random bathroom laws in Canada, the nebulous meaning of the word freedom, and several other arguments that are meant to tempt me to stop arguing my point about effective and ineffective rhetorical strategy... and instead argue with you about the merits of this that or the other random leftwing position.

I've noticed that whenever you feel you can't win the argument, you'll try to shift the argument to an argument you think you can win more easily. 

And most people probably take the bait... so it probably works for you more often than not. But it's a bad faith argument strategy.

I can give you the benefit of the doubt that you're unconscious to it... and it isn't deliberate.

But you do it... and often enough to notice the pattern.

But freedom and equality can only ever exist together.

If you trade freedom for equality, you will not have the power to fight for equality. If you trade equality for freedom, authoritarians will take and inordinate share of the freedom and take your freedom from you.


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If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Freedom and equality are a trade-off. To get one you sacrifice the other.

Leftism is not freedom. You just want to call it freedom because you like that label. Leftism requires restriction of many freedoms for the sake of equality. This is why libertarians are mostly right-wingers.

You cannot have equality in a free market libertarian state.

What kinds of freedoms need to be given up in order to have equality?

Keep in mind that I am female. The only reason I have any freedom at all is because of equality.

Perhaps it's a trade-off for you as a man because equality requires you to give up some power you have over others so that they too may have freedom.

But from the perspective of a woman, they only ever come together. 

Equality means to the freedom to make my own choices and to live my life as I see fit. Without equality, I would have no freedom.

Edited by Emerald

Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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11 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Emerald

"I’m not on my knees—I’m just not afraid to stand where truth cuts deepest. If Leo’s take challenges your comforts, maybe it’s not blind allegiance—it’s just that truth has no need to flatter your politics. Razor-sharp may not make someone right, but dull thinking never does either."

Stupid bitch

You seem really emotional here, definitely remove yourself from this discussion.


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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freedom and equality are complex, often incompatible ideals when taken to their extremes. Both sides have their illusions, and the best way forward isn’t to favor one over the other but to see them for what they are in the real world.

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I've noticed that whenever you feel you can't win the argument, you'll try to shift the argument to an argument you think you can win more easily. 

I have never tried to win arguments with you. That is something you are weirdly preoccupied with by your own admission.

I just make points I feel are most important. I am not here to debate bro you. I try to make larger points than merely trans stuff because my point is that there are far more problems with the left than trans stuff. You want to narrow the discussion to trans stuff to avoid admitting the even deeper rot on the left because you just want to win, not to deal with difficult truths/errors within the leftist worldview.

I did not dodge the trans issue. I addressed it directly. Weird gender ideology is a huge vibe problem for the left. It will remain a problem whether I say it or not. Me not saying it doesn't hide it. Every voter will know about it. You are not going to hide you way out of this issue.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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17 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Emerald

"I’m not on my knees—I’m just not afraid to stand where truth cuts deepest. If Leo’s take challenges your comforts, maybe it’s not blind allegiance—it’s just that truth has no need to flatter your politics. Razor-sharp may not make someone right, but dull thinking never does either."

Stupid bitch

Let's keep it above the belt.

I didn't call you a dumb asshole or a sycophantic jerk or anything like that. 

So, let's keep things on equal ground.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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