Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

So, I hope that I'm making myself clear that you are buying into made-up anti-woke narratives that the right wing used to smear Kamala and Tim Walz... and that it's the proliferation of this kind of narrative that weakens our movement. 

It's not made up. The left has bad and wrong policy ideas. I am not partisan so I will call out bad ideas on right and left alike. I don't care if it helps the other side.

You are dismissing the legitmate ideological problems that exist on the left. I am not talking just about fringe crazies. I am talking about blindspots within mainstream progressive politics. Those blindspots certainly exist, they are obvious to anyone who isn't all-in on leftism but they are constantly denied by folks like you. You just denied that tampons in mens bathrooms are real. So you are not aware of your own side's positions.

The problems I describe are not merely a right-wing boogeyman. They are real. The right does have some legit greivances with the left. It's not all bigotry and propaganda.

I am not buying into reactionary narratives. I am doing first principles thinking about politics and collective survival, which reveals serious blindspots in leftist ideology.

I would hope you give me more credit than that after all the political analysis I've done. You are equating me with some Joe Rogan airhead position like litterboxes for kids who identify as cats.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[Apparition of Jack]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

If it were the 50s and we were figuring out how to win so blacks could just exist, and if Dem politicians were trying to further that cause by calling for reparations, I’d say they need to avoid any mention of that because the attack ads would kill any chance they had. That’s not conceding to the right. It’s operating within the bounds of what the electorate finds acceptable.

The electorate doesn’t like men in women’s sports. Yes, it’s not a real issue, but the electorate will be manipulated into thinking it is. And you have to deal with that reality. 

I just saw a lefty chick running for congress on the Piers Morgan show. Piers asked her if she thought it was okay for trans women to play in female sports. She answered yes, then Piers called her position absurd because he knows he has the backing of the majority.

The electorate is nowhere near being open-minded enough to see her as anything more than a confused or sick fool. This is just the current reality. 

It seems like a huge gamble to continue on with anything that resembles support for woke. It could end up working in the long run, but short term, it’s gonna lose. 

More people need to take a page out of Bernie’s book. Simply ignore or reframe the question entirely. If some dipshit culture war commentator says “do you support men in women’s sports?”, just turn the discussion on its head by saying something like “look [commentator], I know the people at home agree, whether you’re male, female, trans, not trans, we’re all suffering under corporate greed, we’re all suffering a lack of healthcare, etc.”

Its not hard guys lol just talk about the shit that wins people over. 

[Apparition of Jack]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not made up. The left has bad and wrong policy ideas. I am not partisan so I will call out bad ideas on right and left alike. I don't care if it helps the other side.

You are dismissing the legitmate ideological problems that exist on the left. I am not talking just about fringe crazies. I am talking about blindspots within mainstream progressive politics. Those blindspots certainly exist, they are obvious to anyone who isn't all-in on leftism but they are constantly denied by folks like you. You just denied that tampons in mens bathrooms are real. So you are not aware of your own side's positions.

The problems I describe are not merely a right-wing boogeyman. They are real. The right does have some legit greivances with the left. It's not all bigotry and propaganda.

The problem is Leo is at the end of the day, corporate corruption and vested interests are a 10000x bigger problem than whatever minute problems leftist ideology will ever have.

People will continue to elect sentient toads like Trump because they think a few trans athletes is a bigger problem than millions of Americans having no health insurance. Their lives will continue to get worse and worse whilst the actual, deep-seated problems in society go unresolved.

Sure, there might be like, a handful of progressive activists who are out of touch, but I’d much rather a world where everyone has decent healthcare and education if it means a few young people get too on board made-up internet sexualities than a world where trans people are banned from public service whilst everyone starves, goes homeless and ails.

We need to provide for people’s basic needs first. After that then we can debate gender and sexuality all we want, but not before.

Edited May 8 by Apparition of Jack

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not made up. The left has bad and wrong policy ideas. I am not partisan so I will call out bad ideas on right and left alike.

You are dismissing the legitmate ideological problems that exist on the left. I am not talking just about fringe crazies. I am talking about blindspots within mainstream progressive politics. Those blindspots certainly exist, they are obvious to anyone who isn't all-in on leftism but they are always denied by folks like you.

The problems I describe are not merely a right-wing boogeyman. They are real.

Recall... policy is codified law... not niche ideas posed by random people on the internet.

Name a Democrat and/or progressive mainstream politician who has done anything remotely similar to what you're claiming. 

You will find no such instances.

Now, look and see how much they still get tarred and feathered with the "goofy woke" label because well-meaning people fall for and proliferate false narratives like "Republicans are the serious ones who focus on the economy... while Democrats only focus on goofy things like getting funding for sex reassignment surgery for toddlers."

It's all lies and exaggerations of course. But you can always find random people on the internet with ungrounded ideas and show them as an example. So, people fall for it.

And when you assert that it's true that Tim Walz was focused on putting tampons in boy's bathrooms (when it was a total right wing contrivance), you just fed the beast of your own political side's demise.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Recall... policy is codified law... not niche ideas posed by random people on the internet.

Name a Democrat and/or progressive mainstream politician who has done anything remotely similar to what you're claiming. 

Look at Canadian restrooms. There is your law and policy.

It's not as theoretical as you make it sound.

If leftists were given power, they would do some goofy shit. They just haven't been given power.

Look at the border. Look at immigration. Look at gender in sports. Look at drag shows for kids. Look at BLM riots. Look at drug legalization in Oregon. Look at the national debt. Look at inflation. Look at DEI in university admissions.

These are real issues, not just smears.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Look at Canadian restrooms. There is your law and policy.

It's not as theoretical as you make it sound.

If leftists were given power, they would do some goofy shit. They just haven't been given power.

Whatever is happening in Canadian restrooms must not be weird enough to scare people off.

The liberal party candidate won.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Whatever is happening in Canadian restrooms must not be weird enough to scare people off.

The liberal party candidate won.

But the leftist party lost.

Who won is a neo-Lib banker. A Joe Biden type. The Canadian far left lost.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[Apparition of Jack]

I mean, let’s not also forget that the right-wing have a bunch of (much worse) culture war bullshit too. 
 

So many Republicans support lowering the legal marriage age. Basically every MAGA dipshit agrees with breaking the First Amendment and forcing nationalist Christianity on everyone. All of them would make criticising America illegal if they could.

If anything they’re the ones trying to drastically police the world’s culture; they’re just too stupid and self-interested to admit this.

 

EDIT: Like, why is it better that trans people are banned from the military than being allowed freedom of religion, freedom of conscience etc just because some of those trans people made the boomer army receptionist uncomfortable? Why do we accept deep seated racism, sexism, homophobic etc as preferable to banning kids learning about gay people in schools? MAGA is an authoritarian nationalist movement, why are we going to bat for them?

Edited May 8 by Apparition of Jack

[aurum]

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

The way to have political influence is to be able to create and put out simple narratives and visions that people can understand and get on board with... and to assert your paradigm onto the world in a way that dovetails off of how people already think.

And nothing needs to be nefarious or untrue about the narratives. They just need to be simple and give people a sense that they belong within that story and that that story is leading them to deeper levels of connection and movement towards a vision.

Yes, but you also need realistic expectations about how effective that is going to be.

It is not going to work as well for progressives as it will for right-wing media.

Progressives need to strap in for the long-haul. Progressing society is slow business and requires much more than just advancing the status quo. But they almost never understand that and expect society to already be onboard with their agenda.

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

Right wingers understand power a lot more than left wingers do. And they have a very well-funded apparatus for influencing people. So, they tend to be better at these things and less ideologically opposed to them.

We could say right-wingers understand power better. But really, it's mostly just a function of their lower state of development.

Lower stages of development are more power hungry. They also have less ego identification, so they are less concerned with externalities. And in general they value truth less. So overall they are more willing to play dirty.

Also, right-wingers are playing into the status quo. So of course they have lots of funding and influence.

Wanting progressives to be as good as right-wingers at the game of power is a lost cause.

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

But the only way to avoid ceding power to the right and adding to their propaganda is to avoid conceding to their ideological framing... and to assert the normalcy of our own frame.

Again, realistic expectations.

Progressives need to pick their battles. They do not need to win every issue and always control the frame.

They also have to assess whether some policies were ever good policies to begin with, as Leo pointed out.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

But the leftist party lost.

Who won is a neo-Lib banker.

Are you claiming that the leftist party lost because of some random bathroom-related policy? 

What are they doing in those Canadian bathrooms?!?!?!

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Are you claiming that the leftist party lost because of some random bathroom-related policy? 

It's not so direct. They probably lost because their vibe is off.

The party that says Canadian men need tampons. That's how you lose elections. Canadian men are such pussies they literally need free tampons by law. 

The jokes write themselves.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

Again, realistic expectations.

There's nothing unrealistic about my framing suggestion... as it was already normalized and mainstreamed until the right wing propaganda machine took root on the internet and de-normalized my framing.

My framing is just accept that there are people who are different from you in the world and mind your own business. And it's a bit neurotic and obsessive if you care so much what trans people are doing.

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

The problem is Leo is at the end of the day, corporate corruption and vested interests are a 10000x bigger problem than whatever minute problems leftist ideology will ever have.

Sure. But to change that you gotta win elections consistently. Good lucking doing that with leftist goofy shit like drag shows for kids.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[aurum]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

There's nothing unrealistic about my framing suggestion... as it was already normalized and mainstreamed until the right wing propaganda machine took root on the internet and de-normalized my framing.

My framing is just accept that there are people who are different from you in the world and mind your own business. And it's a bit neurotic and obsessive if you care so much what trans people are doing.

No, no, no.

That frame was NOT normalized. It was normalized for progressives.

That is not the same.

I think it's wrong, but I also understand most people are freaked out by trans-people. And they do not care about trans-rights.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not so direct. They probably lost because their vibe is off.

The party that says Canadian men need tampons. That's how you lose elections. Canadian men are such pussies they literally need free tampons by law. 

The jokes write themselves.

And the right wing propaganda writes itself in the mouths of economic leftists who go out of their way to make the right wing's anti-social-freedom case for them.

The way to respond to these criticisms is, who tf cares if tampons are required to be stocked in public restrooms?

It's not causing any harm, and it's better to have those resources available than to not.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

who tf cares if tampons are required to be stocked in public restrooms?

You don't care because you are a far leftist.

Normal people care. And they don't like it. You would be wise to read the room rather than telling people they shouldn't care.

When a young man walks into a voting booth to cast his first vote, does he care to vote for a party that says it's okay for men to not only be pussies but have pussies? To vote for a party that wants to allocate part of his paycheck to given men pussies?

You have lost your sense of reality.

Edited May 8 by Leo Gura

[ExploringReality]

The absolute truth is that all of this is Consciousness playing with itself, exploring identity, polarity, unity, and transformation. But most minds are too fragmented or reactive to see the game they’re caught in.

[JTL]

23 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald You can't bluster nor bull your way through lack of human development.

This isn't merely a PR or leadership problem. This is fundamentally a problem of lack of education, intelligence, and development. And that will not be fixed with any kind of clever political manuvering.

Humans severely lack intelligence and development. Which is why leftists will continue to lose and conservatives continue to win.

lol, Lenin actually talk about this. 

Because the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, so corrupted in parts [...] that an organization taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard that has absorbed the revolutionary energy of the class.

— Lenin

He bascally saying people on the higher end of the spiral have to take control.

[Apparition of Jack]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure. But to change that you gotta win elections consistently. Good lucking doing that with leftist goofy shit like drag shows for kids.

And what we’re is saying is that “leftist goofy shit” is seriously overblown by the corporate media so that anyone actually fighting to increase people’s material well-being is associated with giving dogs sex change surgeries or something instead.

Like Emerald said Kamala actually ignored identity issues during her campaign and instead focused on a platform of expanding health coverage, giving new home buyers government grants etc (you know, things that will actually solve society's problems), but she still lost because the media convinced voters that 400 billion gay terrorists from Somalia would invade the country if Trump didn’t win and we’d all be having circlejerks in churches instead. Trump’s vile economic platform won in large part because people were too distracted by culture war noise to see what he and his cronies (Elon, Thiel etc) were actually going to do to the material and financial makeup of the country instead. Million’s of people’s social security, Medicaid, hell even just basic fucking jobs are at risk because enough people thought there was some secret trans cabal lurking around every corner to turn the frogs gay.

Edited May 8 by Apparition of Jack

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, aurum said:

No, no, no.

That frame was NOT normalized. It was normalized for progressives.

That is not the same.

I think it's wrong, but I also understand most people are freaked out by trans-people. And they do not care about trans-rights.

As someone who grew up in a conservative redneck town, I can tell you that that's just not true.

Mind your own business is a sentiment that's very popular in the hearts and minds of the majority of the American people.

And polling even shows that most people are indifferent to trans people and really don't care. 

It's only about 25%-30% of people who have a trans hate boner... and a great deal of that is because they're fed a steady diet of right wing propaganda that claims that trans people are trying to trans your kids.

And the reality is the right wingers focus on trans issues WAY more than left wingers do. You can see this by the sheer volume of anti-trans bills and laws that are penned and passed.

So, you can frame it as "Right wing politicians have no serious solutions that help people and are just looking to cut taxes on the wealthy and gut social security, while obsessing about trans people all the time to scare a certain vocal component of their base." (which is actually true)

And left wingers don't get hung up on people's personal choices because we're pro-freedom and mind our own business, and we focus on an actual economic populist vision that puts food on the table.