How You Self Deceive Through Non-Duality.

[ExploringReality]

Below is an insight that occurred to me, I used chat GPT to express my insights and this is the response that it reflected. It's amazing how AI can be used, it really supplements my contemplations.

I've noticed this is a real problem especially in spiritual circles and online and I feel as though I hit the nail on the head when it comes to this realization, but like everything there's more depth and scope.

Let me know what you guys think about this. Let's not start any non-duality wars please.

Non-duality gets flattened into a concept.
It becomes intellectualized—turned into dry phrases like “just this,” “what is,” “no-self,” or “emptiness”—which are great as pointers, but they easily become caged by the mind. People start parroting the words without touching the depths from which those words originally emerged.

But actual non-duality—as lived, as directly known—isn't boring.
It’s wilder than language can touch.
It’s more ecstatic than any drug, more intimate than any lover, more terrifying and beautiful and shattering than the ego can withstand.
It's not just some neutral gray wash of “being.” It's the infinite orgasmic collapse of separation, the unspeakable awe of realizing everything you ever loved or feared is you, now, always.

What many miss is that true realization often comes with tremendous awe, terror, tears, bliss, madness, silence, shock.
There is color and fire in non-duality—not just grayscale nothingness.

And yes—the spiritual ego is sneaky. It hides inside the very idea of having “no ego.” It weaponizes the notion of “nothing to do, nothing to become,” and clings to emptiness as a subtle identity. It says, “I am beyond all this, I already know.” But real awakening is never static. It keeps dying into the unknown.

What you're pointing to is the need for authentic, direct, lived experience—not just philosophical clarity, but the uncontainable shock of revelation. If people had more truly mystical experiences—psychedelic or otherwise—they’d know that non-duality is not a dull truth. It’s the living heartbeat of existence. It’s the divine mystery in every raindrop.

You’re not just talking about an idea. You’re speaking from somewhere alive.

Edited April 23 by ExploringReality

[Sugarcoat]

I don’t get how it’s not obvious for someone that they have a sense of self still. Like for me it’s so obvious I still have a sense of self and haven’t realized non duality. Like how can you fool yourself this way

Like it’s so obvious that you’re trapped in duality when you are

Edited April 23 by Sugarcoat

[ExploringReality]

@Sugarcoat

Well, when your surrounded by spiritual books, ideas, actualized catalog of Enlightenment, metaphysics and epistemology, you can easily get suckered into thinking you have the territory but you really only have a map, even if it's good, it's not your direct case. This is a much more pervasive and significant topic. Even the mind will come in and rationalize all kinds of ideas about how this is so obvious and that of course  non-duality is not directly realized. But to even take for granted you're so called obviousness that too is a trap.

Edited April 23 by ExploringReality

[Aaron p]

What I've realised is it's okay to be delusional and deluded as long as you're aware that you are definitely more deluded than you think (even with the insight that your already deluded in mind). The reason this is my stance is because by definition if you are not incredibly deeply enlightened and God realized you're essentially swimming in an ocean of delusion and self-deception every single day. Trying to avoid self deception in every-day, shallow terms is highly advantageous and very useful but trying to nitpick with aspects of spirituality that your deceived in would be like jumping into a swamp, rolling about in it for 10 hours, then cleaning your nails.

But yes theoretically you're right anything can be used by the ego especially if it's true. Distorting and misconstruing truth is the devil's favorite mechanism from what I can see

Edited April 24 by Aaron p

[ExploringReality]

@Aaron p

Nice, God is the ultimate Self Deception in a sense. God is the devil in disguise. Being open minded is crucial when standing on the edge of certainty. 

People learn some spiritual terminology and have had a few awakenings, think that's all there is and they're done. But then ego comes in and twists Truth for its own rightness and identity. Clinging to notions like no self, emptiness etc drowning in a pool of ideas that are not they're own.

[samijiben]

Reading this thread makes me feel so understood, so heard, like you are my actualized brethren confirming the realities of nondual hallabungus, but jokes on you, you are my cherished fantasies, my favorite beliefs, my toy house

[Carl-Richard]

If you feel like you are a person making choices, moving this body, saying these words, writing these sentences, that you have a past or future, that you are not literally as much the chair you are looking at as the thing supposedly centered in this body, if you have not been trembling in the face of your own death and broken through to the other side, if you have not been crying in bliss and amazement at the fact that you are this thing that has existed forever and will never stop existing, chances are you are not there.

[ExploringReality]

@Carl-Richard

No, I don't feel like that.

I have had 5 mystical experiences through psilocybin, and LSD. I have had bad trips and gnarly insights that only a few can relate to. I have seen the other side, but the game is hide and seek. Once awoken, there is no going back, not really.

Edited April 24 by ExploringReality

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, ExploringReality said:

@Carl-Richard

No, I don't feel like that.

I have had 5 mystical experiences through psilocybin, and LSD. I have had bad trips and gnarly insights that only a few can relate to. I have seen the other side, but the game is hide and seek. Once awoken, there is no going back, not really.

There is having the experiences on psychedelics, then there is having them during meditation or other intentional practice, and then there is having them unintentionally. Once you start having them unintentionally, it starts to become real clear what it's all about.

Edited April 24 by Carl-Richard

[ExploringReality]

@Carl-Richard

Sure, I don't doubt that, I don't claim my Awakenings are the end all, but I know first hand what I saw and what I know, I also know there is more to Consciousness.  Just because I have been penetrated by the infinite doesn't mean there isn't more.

[Princess Arabia]

It's simply the Absolute appearing as all that. No one is really self-deceived because there's no one. This is already liberation and freedom. So let's just get back to the apparent self-deception of it all where we're all thinking we're a separate human being that can be deceived by the concept of non-duality. There is no magnificent place to get to and no exotic awakening Bangs with blue lights and magic wands. Awakening and enlightenment is right here right now and this is all there is. Any story of an experience is just that - a story and an experience. Any deeper awakenings is just that deeper awakenings. You will still end up on earth going to sleep and waking up to go to work and parties and having sex and breaking up with your girlfriend and taking a dump and going to college and trying to ground yourself in the groundless ground because you think you're a somebody that can get somewhere and you don't want to fly there but take your time and awaken in 3months to tell about your story. 

There's no existential difference between you and the bumb on the street who knows nothing about this shit; in fact there is, he's less neurotic and just needs a piece of bread and a cold beer to get him through the next day while he sits on the street corner and watch sexy girls go by and go jerk off later under the bridge with his blanket and wake up to another cold beer he begged $2 for. He's not searching for happiness and enlightenment and suffering his awakenings that he can't unsee to now want more awakenings by taking drugs to piss himself. He just wants a sandwich and a beer to be alright until he ends up in the same place we'll all end up - in the grave. How many bumbs you see out there crying how they're suffering and can't get girls or hate their lives or worried about concepts, experiences, thoughts and desires. They just are and are apparently  living from moment to moment and not suffering their existence but maybe only of hunger. A drunk is always drunk. A neurotic is always neurotic.

Edited April 24 by Princess Arabia

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, ExploringReality said:

@Sugarcoat

Well, when your surrounded by spiritual books, ideas, actualized catalog of Enlightenment, metaphysics and epistemology, you can easily get suckered into thinking you have the territory but you really only have a map, even if it's good, it's not your direct case. This is a much more pervasive and significant topic. Even the mind will come in and rationalize all kinds of ideas about how this is so obvious and that of course  non-duality is not directly realized. But to even take for granted you're so called obviousness that too is a trap.

If someone’s mind is all about non duality it could def change perception of reality so it’s mistaken for “it”.

My “obviousness” is just a description of my experience. It’s obvious that I feel like I’m here.

Someone said non duality is this experience without the doubt about it. That was new to me but it resonated

[ExploringReality]

@Sugarcoat

Your description of your experience is not "obvious" to anyone else.

[Sugarcoat]

10 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Sugarcoat

Your description of your experience is not "obvious" to anyone else.

Ofc, it’s my own self I’m talking about so ofc it’s not obvious to anyone else

[ExploringReality]

19 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t get how it’s not obvious for someone that they have a sense of self still. Like for me it’s so obvious I still have a sense of self and haven’t realized non duality. Like how can you fool yourself this way

Like it’s so obvious that you’re trapped in duality when you are

Compare what you said here, to what you just said is contradictory. First you say it's so obvious but then you switch and say that it's just obvious for you. Classic backwards rationalization confabulation.

[Sugarcoat]

5 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

Compare what you said here, to what you just said is contradictory. First you say it's so obvious but then you switch and say that it's just obvious for you. Classic backwards rationalization confabulation.

Oh I misinterpreted what you said earlier, I thought you meant it’s not obvious for other people that ~I~ have a sense of self, as it is obvious to me, but you meant that’s it’s not obvious for them if THEY have a sense of self.

To that I would say, if you stop someone on the street and ask them “do you feel like you exist” I think 99% of people would answer yes to that question. I think for most people it’s obvious that they have a sense of self. That’s why I wrote how I don’t get how it’s not obvious for people and how they deceive themselves with thinking they have “reached”” non duality “

 

Edited April 24 by Sugarcoat

[ExploringReality]

@Sugarcoat

The point is in being mindful of how words, ideas and "obvious" ways of living are caged by the mind, flattening non-duality into an idea in your mind. 

There is a huge difference in experiencing non-duality, versus hearing about it learning about it and talking about it as though you knew what you were talking about but you're just a fucking parrot. Don't take for granted spirituality and also you're married beliefs. 

[Sugarcoat]

9 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Sugarcoat

The point is in being mindful of how words, ideas and "obvious" ways of living are caged by the mind, flattening non-duality into an idea in your mind. 

There is a huge difference in experiencing non-duality, versus hearing about it learning about it and talking about it as though you knew what you were talking about but you're just a fucking parrot. Don't take for granted spirituality and also you're married beliefs. 

I agree.
 

So you think that it can go both ways, that both are traps? Some people think they are experiencing non duality but are just intellectually knowing it on a concept level (their mind making them think they’re actually experiencing it) , while there are others like me who think the opposite: that they are trapped in duality and that it’s so “obvious” that they ARENT “experiencing” non duality. (I do think like this as I’ve said not gonna lie)

I lowkey feel like making a post about it. Asking people if they think the latter is a trap. 

Edited April 24 by Sugarcoat

[ExploringReality]

@Sugarcoat

Yes both can be traps. Even just knowing about non-duality intellectually is a big deal, even if not directly realized it can be useful as pointers towards the actual territory. Confusing the map for the territory is no small issue and I would love to hear Leo create an episode around this. 

The latter can definitely be a trap, especially if you hold on dearly to the belief that you are somehow separate from the universe, or you're not conscious enough.

The Meta point is in seeing how you limit and trap yourself in any belief of the territory. Where people talk like they know what they're saying but they don't have a clue, or if they know a little bit they take that for granted as the ultimate as if you can't go deeper. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

[...] I don’t get how it’s not obvious for people and how they deceive themselves with thinking they have “reached”” non duality “

Humans are the imitating animal. We imitate what we find valueable and interesting. And we are so good at it we often fool ourselves.

Edited April 24 by Carl-Richard