Doctor vs. Anti-vaxxers

[Nemra]

 

Edited April 11 by Nemra

[Nemra]

The problem is not about being an anti-vaxxer but about not being aware of one's epistemology, and anti-vaxxers focus less on epistemology.

Edited April 11 by Nemra

[Nemra]

In the video, anti-vaxxers loved giving justifications by bringing up deaths and the sufferings of people, which they comfortably blame on COVID vaccines, and they expect that Mike should feel responsible for them as a doctor, which is ridiculous.

They want to be babysat if and only if they hear what they already believe; otherwise, it infringes on their freedom, which they believe they aspire to for everyone.

Edited April 11 by Nemra

[Leo Gura]

Oh gawd. I'm too afraid to click on it. I can smell the epistemic cringe.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

You can notice that these anti-vaxxers are so selfish. Their entire understanding of public health policy is just a projection of whatever they feel is right for them personally. They don't have enough cognitive development to distinguish between what is healthy for them as individuals vs what is needed for the health of 100s of millions of people. Their minds are so narrow they cannot think beyond themselves and their tiny circle.

You can just see that all these anti-vaxxers have low cognitive development.

These people pre-rational. They have notdeveloped rationality. So you cannot reason with them.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[zurew]

This will only get worse, unless something tangible will be done to restore the trust in institutions and authority figures. You either use proxies to make sense of things for you or you make sense of things. Each have downsides, but the fact of the matter is that you don't have the time nor the expertise to properly evaluate all data, especially given that we are talking about multiple domains.

Because of the distrust - even if these people agree on all the facts , they will choose the most adverserial and bad-faith explanation , no matter how far-fetched it will sound , because that will be the one that will match closest the model that they have about insitutions. 

This problem is way beyond what any doctor can handle or deal with. Even if one doctor would know all the facts and all the conspiracy theories and could respond to all of them perfectly, this shit wouldn't change or move most of these people and the lack of trust would remain the same.

You wont increase trust by being right, but you can destroy trust forever just by fucking up once.

If there is a new situation where there is any lack of certainty - the worst possible and most adverserial scenarios will be projected on it by default.

Edited April 11 by zurew

[zurew]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

These people pre-rational. They have developed rationality. So you cannot reason with them.

I agree mostly, but you can be rational and have a lot of IQ and good reasoning capabilities and still be lost.

You probably agree with this, that having those traits won't help you with navigating self-deception - in fact, in some cases, having those traits absent of some other traits will make you more prone to self-deception.

Motivated reasoning, when you are good at it can be crazy misleading and the better you are at it, the higher the chance that you will manage to bullshit yourself.

[Leo Gura]

@zurew Rationality is still better than pre-rationality. Of course rationality turned into rationalism is not enough. But it's better than not.

All these anti-vaxxers need to start by learning basic rationality. Then we can talk about what comes next.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You can notice that these anti-vaxxers are so selfish. Their entire understanding of public health policy is just a projection of whatever they feel is right for them personally. They don't have enough cognitive development to distinguish between what is healthy for them as individuals vs what is needed for the health of 100s of millions of people. Their minds are so narrow they cannot think beyond themselves and their tiny circle.

You can just see that all these anti-vaxxers have low cognitive development.

These people pre-rational. They have notdeveloped rationality. So you cannot reason with them.

I actually didn't notice that, even though I watched the video after reading your comment.

To me it seems like they are worried about other people / public health but they see the issue as "the evil government and corporations are trying to poison people and make money".

I didn't notice them saying things like: "i don't care if other people die from covid, I want my freedom" or whatever.

They actually think that vaccines are bad for society at large, and that covid is actually not deadly, and blah, blah, blah.

[D2sage]

Funny thing, in Sweden if you wore a mask during the pandemic, people would call or look at you like if you were stupid.

Those who use it were mostly elderly, even saw someone with a welding mask 

At least the Johnson & Johnson COVID vaccine was discontinued in the U.S. in 2023 after being linked to rare but serious adverse event. Progress is being made in terms of transparency. Soon these vaccine will be 100% sure to not transmit the flu to other people.

 

From my experience with anti-vaxxers and pro-vaxxers is that the 90% of the pros already have health issues prior to covid, like obesety, abdominal pain, diabetics and mostly some who get sick once a month with fever and other infections than covid etc. Stuffy nose, and occasionally, an unhealthy gamer who drink more soda than water.

Found it funny that someone who is distinctively unhealthy was giving health advise to somoene with perfect health. Heard these debates often when socializing when covid was the talk of the town.

Edited April 11 by D2sage

[Elliott]

Doctor did great.

Did you guys see the anti-vax parents whose kid died from measles, still promoting anti-vax right after their kid died, these people are sociopaths.

[D2sage]

The vaccines they give to children under 6 months-old seem to be fine. At least in developed countries. Vaccine for Tetanus etc we got in school by the nurse for free.

 

Edited April 11 by D2sage

[Elliott]

7 minutes ago, D2sage said:

The vaccines they give to children under 6 months-old seem to be fine. At least in developed countries. Vaccine for Tetanus etc we got in school by the nurse for free.

 

All vaccines seem fine. Covid vaccines are the most thoroughly tested in history now.

[D2sage]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

All vaccines seem fine.

Thats why the J&J variant is no longer available in the US due to risk of a rare and dangerous blood clotting condition.

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Covid vaccines are the most thoroughly tested in history now.

Maybe now but not in the beginning. Was a trial thing with the US Senate and Pfizer being questioned why they lied about certain tests etc.

 

But you are right. now its 2025 and all covid vaccines are perfectly fine without risks. Took a lot of tests, some even helped to test it with 5 shots with the same stuff. Kudos to these people, fo real.

Edited April 11 by D2sage

[Elliott]

32 minutes ago, D2sage said:

Thats why the J&J variant is no longer available in the US due to risk of a rare and dangerous blood clotting condition.

 

If no other competing vaccines were available it would have continued. They had like 60 cases of blood clots out of millions, we have like 12 other vaccines to choose from. People get blood clots from over the counter stuff.

" A study showed that people taking NSAID drugs double their risk of getting a blood clot in the legs or lungs. Every ibuprofen package includes a black box warning from the FDA cautioning users that the drug could cause blood clots, gastrointestinal bleeding, ulcers, and gastrointestinal perforation. "

Edited April 11 by Elliott

[D2sage]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

If no other competing vaccines were available it would have continued. They had like 60 cases of blood clots out of millions, we have like 12 other vaccines to choose from. People get blood clots from over the counter stuff.

" A study showed that people taking NSAID drugs double their risk of getting a blood clot in the legs or lungs. Every ibuprofen package includes a black box warning from the FDA cautioning users that the drug could cause blood clots, gastrointestinal bleeding, ulcers, and gastrointestinal perforation. "

 

Touché.

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

All these anti-vaxxers need to start by learning basic rationality. Then we can talk about what comes next

From what I have impressed, part of the anti-vaxxers are people who got harmed from western medicine and pharmaceuticals and have a broad critical thinking of the conventional thinking about health. They can be found on many groups of natural health, Veganism, 801010 diet, Fruitarians, Naturopathy and more, and they tend to automatically be more critical about vaccines too. Some of them become ideological anti-vaxxers, but basically, many of them can make many good points of criticism on western medicine from above, even if they are wrong about certain important vaccines, although I think they are not entirely wrong because vaccines do also harm but much less commonly than the diseases they prevent. Sure, there are the other side of groups of anti-vaxxer that make their critisism from below and from pre-rationality stage Blue.

Edited April 11 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Something Funny said:

I didn't notice them saying things like: "i don't care if other people die from covid, I want my freedom" or whatever.

You have to read between the lines.

Yes, they speak about society as a whole, but its a projection of their personal anecdotal experience, like their kid had a problem, therefore vaccines are bad, or someone they knew died so vaccines are bad, or they eat health food so vaccines aren't needed, or they believe in God so what God gave us is enough, or their doctor pressured them into getting vaccines, so healthcare is corrupt, or their child is healthy, so no problem, or they know someone who got a vaccine side-effect so vaccines are bad, or they deserve personal freedom over their body so no vaccines needed.

These anti-vaxxers cannot think statistically and scientifically, they think by personal stories and anecdotes, and they parrot crap they heard on Facebook or from RFK.

Epistemic Nitwits.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

From what I have impressed, part of the anti-vaxxers are people who got harmed from western medicine and pharmaceuticals and have a broad critical thinking of the conventional thinking about health. They can be found on many groups of natural health, Veganism, 801010 diet, Fruitarians, Naturopathy and more, and they tend to automatically be more critical about vaccines too. Some of them become ideological anti-vaxxers, but basically, many of them can make many good points of criticism on western medicine from above

They are criticizing sceince from below, not above.

Just because you're vegan or healthy doesn't mean you know how to reason about national health policy. These are totally different things. 60% of the population is obese and does not eat healthy and you are not going to change that by giving them a lecture about organic food or getting flouride out of the water. You need solutions that saves their lives when shit hits the fan.

These people are so stupid that they don't understand that the only reason they and their families didn't die without vaccines is because they got lucky. These people think God, nature, and organic food will protect them. This is pre-rational thinking and does not rise to the level of science.

Understanding vaccines requires statistical scientific reasoning, which 60% of the population isn't capable of. Which is why they are ripe for RFK's bullshit facts and conspiracy theories.

This is what happens when people don't learn STEM rationality. These people fundamentally don't understand what science is or how it works. Which is why going to college is important.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

I've found a lot of anti vaxxers got the covid vaccine, at least boomers.

Anti-vax hippies deserve credit though, they're willing to isolate, it's a different conversation. Vaccines do come with risks.

Edited April 11 by Elliott