Something simple as Theory of Mind Studies have so much to Contemplate about

[Rafael Thundercat]

Another day listening to dogs barking I came to realise that the dogs nearby started to bark because they heard other dogs barking far away. You may thing this is obvious, but imagine: If you hear some people far in the city shouting in desperation of sounding like they are fighting you will not start shouting and screaming back. This is because when a dog barks it is barking to some threat, somebody passed in the street and the dog bark, the dog near me hear it and take the bark as a sign of threat to himself since it can rationalise that is just other dog barking and he dont need to be worried himself with it, it just respond neuronmirroning the behavior of the other dog. 

a good read in the Wikipedia about Theory of Mind gave me good insights about how complex are our development. So complex that even by reading this you may start asking in your own mind what are all the reasons I in my mind started this post, and this work with all other conversations we have in this Forum, we keep making inferences and guesses about what goes on in the minds of all other memebers of this Forum. 

One thing to learn from the Wiki is that some people have low development in their Theory of Mind capacity, so for them is more difficult to engage in good comunication,emphaty and so fort. 

Read the Wiki if you wish and add your thougths, well , because I actually cant read your mind unless you write something of what is going on inside of it 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

 

" The "theory of mind" is described as a theory, because the behavior of the other person, such as their statements and expressions, is the only thing being directly observed; no one has direct access to the mind of another, and the existence and nature of the mind must be inferred.[12] It is typically assumed others have minds analogous to one's own; this assumption is based on three reciprocal social interactions, as observed in joint attention,[2] the functional use of language,[13] and the understanding of others' emotions and actions.[14] Theory of mind allows one to attribute thoughts, desires, and intentions to others, to predict or explain their actions, and to posit their intentions. It enables one to understand that mental states can be the cause of—and can be used to explain and predict—the behavior of others.[12] Being able to attribute mental states to others and understanding them as causes of behavior implies, in part, one must be able to conceive of the mind as a "generator of representations".[15] If a person does not have a mature theory of mind, it may be a sign of cognitive or developmental impairment.[1

[Keryo Koffa]

Leo's concepts of Solipsism and Infinity also apply here. All experiences we're aware of are already inside ourselves, so whatever we perceive is a projection, yet much lies outside our awareness that others may trigger into experience, accessing the larger Infinity we also are. Empathy is quite an interesting topic.

And your "dog barking" example is quite a find. Spotting and transmitting information of danger through barking, reminds me of "Early warning systems", where you make sure to relay important messages, not yet knowing the extent of the danger. Just like cells in a body finding a virus, or human pandemics like corona, or scouts in the military spotting an enemy, firefighter alarms in towns and cities after a fire has been noticed. It's a more automatic and instinctive response in dogs, an early step of assessing danger before opening oneself up to exploration and play, which they also do when they feel safe and have taken sufficient time to evaluate.

And in human terms but also on all planes, it can lead to panic, destruction, riots, and be more dangerous than the actual danger, unfortunately enough, it's the fight or flight response that has to be mastered and then transcended.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_warning_system

As for the larger model of "Theory of Mind". I'll need some time to integrate it.

Edited August 2, 2024 by Keryo Koffa

[Rafael Thundercat]

On 02/08/2024 at 10:23 AM, Keryo Koffa said:

As for the larger model of "Theory of Mind". I'll need some time to integrate it.

It is connected to the need of prediction of danger and the detection of oportunity too. In the operative system in order to survive there is the necessity to be accurate that one is able to very fast acess if a sound,sight,or even smell is a threat to the integrity of the system. If youn are sleeping and is not able to hear your door being opened by a burglar you may not have time to act. Sometimes when I am in Sleep Paralisis I hear weird sounds, and of course this sounds have nothing to do with any real danger, are just my mind freaking out. So when this happen I send the intention to move my toes, since it brings me back to wake state. But look the interesting trick here. Even in my sleep Paralisis I can escape the Ideia that there is a "Dangerous" "other" out there to protect myself from. Imagine a baby inside his mother belly, hearing sounds, movements, noises around from his mother intestines and heart beat. The embryo is in a situation where there are something unknow outthere, and the embryo dont even have rationality or dicernment, even after birth, will take time to that baby realise that Mother is something other than itself, more time to reach the point to intuit that others have their own minds. 

It is a mammal thing. mainly for Social Animals. Is Survival of Course. Most Behaviors are Survival, if was not for survival we would not need such capacity.

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

 

[Keryo Koffa]

It's inspiring how new ideas synergize with the rest of the neural network, abstracting and scaling beyond its structure. Meta becomes the new normal, verticality can be explored as if it were horizontal. Adding a new cone of color would not simply multiply vision, but exponentiate it. The holarchic context of metacognition is what the Theory of Mind seems to be all about. Each layer adds to the spiral of awareness! I am reminded of some many other ideas...

[LastThursday]

The mind blowing thing is that Theory of Mind is also applied to yourself. Your emotions and actions are rationalised into a story about your own identity, and produces a "self" as a result.

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

The mind blowing thing is that Theory of Mind is also applied to yourself. Your emotions and actions are rationalised into a story about your own identity, and produces a "self" as a result.

Yes I assume I am a thinking mind because I think, but the thinking process and me exist in simultaneous so for example while I write this I am aware of me making choices of what words to say to be able to convey a message to another mind out there and to be carefull in the word choice so that the other mind can understand it. Even I need to write in this language called English otherwise I sense the such other will not grasp the meanings. At same time I am listening my own voice in my mind while I write a silent voice.

[Joshe]

On 8/1/2024 at 11:07 AM, Rafael Thundercat said:

Read the Wiki if you wish and add your thougths, well , because I actually cant read your mind unless you write something of what is going on inside of it 

😂

AI has brought up ToM twice in the past week, so I searched here and found your post. 

This topic is gold! It's really interesting that children can have highly developed ToM. I think this explains a lot about my childhood and I suspect it could answer lingering questions a lot of us have about who and why we are what we are. For some reason, I believe we became very open as children, and that openness was one of the key factors that contributed to our expanded consciousness.

Just an early idea but what if ToM is just tracking the consequences of openness?

Edited August 11, 2024 by Joshe

[Rafael Thundercat]

On 11/08/2024 at 3:50 AM, Joshe said:

😂

AI has brought up ToM twice in the past week, so I searched here and found your post. 

This topic is gold! It's really interesting that children can have highly developed ToM. I think this explains a lot about my childhood and I suspect it could answer lingering questions a lot of us have about who and why we are what we are. For some reason, I believe we became very open as children, and that openness was one of the key factors that contributed to our expanded consciousness.

Just an early idea but what if ToM is just tracking the consequences of openness?

My humble guess is that the phenomena of ToM is a necessity in animals that live in groups. Mainly Apes. I think there is a study of Macaques where a macaque lie to other macaques giving a wrong scream signal that would mean "snake" and by doing this the group runs away so the macaque can eat a nice fruit without sharing with the group. So, again, if any behavior exists it exist on order to sustain survival otherwise there would be no need of it. Having intuition about other people intentions is a good thing for survival, kids need to learn how to read parents and act in ways to get what they want otherwise they would not survive. 

We do a lot of prediction everyday, mainly when we are in company of others, and this allow us to navigate the day in making food,working,debating,conflict resolution etc..

[Rafael Thundercat]

since young, there are many tests that demand high skills of observation and give response to inputs in order to adapt to the environment and the social group

 

 

[Joshe]

5 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

My humble guess is that the phenomena of ToM is a necessity in animals that live in groups. Mainly Apes. I think there is a study of Macaques where a macaque lie to other macaques giving a wrong scream signal that would mean "snake" and by doing this the group runs away so the macaque can eat a nice fruit without sharing with the group. So, again, if any behavior exists it exist on order to sustain survival otherwise there would be no need of it. Having intuition about other people intentions is a good thing for survival, kids need to learn how to read parents and act in ways to get what they want otherwise they would not survive. 

We do a lot of prediction everyday, mainly when we are in company of others, and this allow us to navigate the day in making food,working,debating,conflict resolution etc..

Nice video. That definitely makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.

[Leo Gura]

They should all it Sense of Other.

Theory of Mind is such a bad label for it.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Rafael Thundercat]

What when AI develop a Sense of Other? Will it start asking itself what is itself and start creating backstories to justify its own existence?

https://medium.com/@camilajohn001/theory-of-mind-ai-the-next-frontier-in-artificial-intelligence-92cb1963ab5d

What are humans more than biological robots that started to create answers to fill the blank