Why do I want to use high dosage of Pychedelics all the time, how can I move on?

[Javfly33]

On 22/5/2024 at 0:12 PM, Water by the River said:

I wasn't asked, but since that didn't prevent me from commenting ever since, please allow me my musings... 

So, here is the Ultimate Crocodile. Or Trap. Since it is pretty close to Ultimate Truth:

The problem (or rather near impossibility) in realizing Ultimate Truth/Full Enlightenment (not even to talk about realizing & keeping that on a stable basis in daily life) with mainly/only psychedelics (vs. a combined meditation and psychedelics-approach) is that the separate-self/ego is never fully seen through, and happily hijacks all insights gained and projects itself onto them.

• Like nondual merging with the visual field, aka non-dual-Unity-states of a still separate-self merging with the visual field.
• that the visual field is mere empty appearance hovering in Nothingness
• that this Nothingness is "IT", is Infinity, in all possible dimensions, is boundless limitless nondual Consciousness/Suchness
• "God-Realization" (aka that pretty much everything which appears is imagined to fool oneself into a false-body-mind-identity. That includes past&future imagination. Which is true, but still there is a subtle separate-self-something left and not seen through having all these insights, and proclaiming "I am God". It is not truly impersonal yet, and Absolute Reality is impersonal. Yes, True You is totally impersonal. Shocking, but true. But only shocking from before the Gateless Gate. After the Gateless Gate, it was just one more trap on the path/maze to Infinite love&liberation&freedom).

That is pretty much the development Leo has taken, from nondual, to Infinity, to "God-Realization". And then some ETs (which is of course just more appearance/mind-stuff/content consciousness) since the God-Realization didn't went any further from there. And then after some psychedelic-substance-fallout-crocodiles ET said not permanently in this life darling, but maybe permanently in the next life in the 7th heaven, and the message was heard, and the phone was (increasingly) hung up (for now).

Ultimate Truth is beyond all of that. Contains all of that. Unchanging. And eternal. All the rest mentioned above rolls "before" and "in" your true formless Infinite Being like a show. Waking/dreaming/deep sleep/normal life/nondual/infinite/God-Realization/ET/crocodiles: All these states roll before your True Being like a show, never changing anything real even for a moment. All just appearance. What is watching all of that? What can never not be here, even in Deep Sleep?

And btw., the essence of the frog is completely understood by throwing it into a mixer and looking what it is made of (Suchness). That is how the frog gets truly impersonal. And the essence is all that stays, eternally. The rest is just changing appearance, an illusion, a show. Including any "understanding", which can be dead&gone&forgotten. The essence never can go anywhere, ever. That is what each being truly is. And realizing & embodying that is true freedom and liberation.

And why is this kind of psychedelic "God-Realization" not stable?

• Psychedelics: The filters/lenses of the last subtle separate-self illusions don't get disassemled/transcended/cut-off in real time (aka impersonal, or "not-only-personal-awareness,"). Because of lacking strength&speed of Awareness in cutting all of that off in real-time. And that is why Infinite Nonduality/mere appearance/Awakening states break down after the trip: Unearned wisdom/states. Not impersonal, but still personal/separate-self/ego. In "God-Realization" there are still remnants (although subtle ones) of an ego/separate-self too much left alive & hijacking the insight/state. 
• Meditation: Transcending separate-self/ego-elements (speed and strength/knowing each and any separate-self-arising illusion/I-feeling/I-thoughts/...) leads to nondual/infinite/mere appearance states: stable & personal transcended (aka impersonal), "earned".

Psychedelics: psychedelics lead to nondual/infinite/mere appearance states without transcending all (subtle) separte-self/ego-buildings-blocks: unstable &"unearned" & can hijack the states: "I am God/-realized, whatever".

The True Being of every being (Infinite Consciousness/Reality, impersonal or universal Awareness) is always right here, eternal. Can never change. It can only appear to be clouded.

Looking out for less-than-impersonal-crocodiles by the non-personal River 

 

@Water by the River

Wise words. Ralston already said It one of his videos.

He took a bunch of Acid after enlightment to "test" is what It is, would Still be the same.

He said "nothing changed".

Psychedelics are EXACTLY as Mystical states of yoga, meditation...etc, they are Still PART of MIND, of Dreaming, of imagination, and appearance.

Absolute-wise, there is no difference between having a cup of coffee and doing DMT, the latter does not necesarily provide a Realization of true nature, of what One Is. 

Unity, love, Magic, these are some facets of consciousness and mind that are more usual to happen in psychedelics and spiritual practices, than having a coffee on your lunch break, but they are Still part of Experience of the separate self. They dont guarantee that you Will realiza Yourself.

The attitude of trying to seek oneself, by using psychedelics or doing spiritual practices, might "trigger" a Realization, but is not the psychedelic or spiritual practice that provide the Realization. Realization could happen also talking a coffee for that Matter.

That which is NOT, can not be a 'state'. That which is NOT, can Only realize itself Directly, an experience can never be that which is NOT an experience. 

 

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Ralston already said It one of his videos.

He took a bunch of Acid after enlightment to "test" is what It is, would Still be the same.

He said "nothing changed".

Ralston is wrong

[James123]

@Water by the River @Javfly33

Of course, psychedelic experience is ego too. Meanwhile, the one who understands these sentences are ego too. Let them take 10 gr dried shrooms, and let's see what will happen to them? Most likely, if nothing happens, the reason of it is they know that any experience is ego and they do not react any feelings, emotions or experience, only that's why. Not because of they are in love always. 

[Water by the River]

52 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston is wrong

Or maybe you have not passed the Gateless Gate. Not big enough for the remains of the frog , even though in your case, they are quite thinned out thanks to some, ummm, substances, contemplation and meditation. 

But alas, even an Camel Alien can't pass the eye of a needle. Same with the Gateless Gate. 

Also ET needs the Mixer in order to have stable nondual Infinite Awakening sobre in daily life. And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti is the mixer. Not this Alien, not that Alien.

All the psychedelic states and insights, however high in manifestation & understanding & insight & Alien & whatever n+1, are just appearances. Temporary, just appearing, not constant, all disappearing again, just imagined, rolling "before" your True Being like a show. Just like life, dream, deep sleep, death, Astral, Bardo, Alien, God, Demon, n+1, or whatever other show consciousness lets appear later in... Infinite Being. You intuit that already.

And after the Alien and whatever infinitely consciousness understanding  n+1, "death" can wipe the slate clean. Infinite Being forgets (or rather doesn't let the memory-appearances arise again, and then throws itself out again on its own breadcrumb trail back home. Just for the fun of it). Until the resistance against that simple fact is dead & transcended in real time, the mixer is indicated.

Luckily, nowadays they make Youtube-videos on how to avoid such traps.

 

Uhuh, Water by the River now really has smiled at a very intelligent crocodile in the River

Luckily, "he" is also all crocodiles, including the crocodile now probably smiling really  hungrily at him. But luckily, that specific crocodile has enough smartness to enable the potential for some humour. 

 

PS: No non-existing-just-appearing aliens were harmed while filming the appearing movie with the mixer. And no self-existing separate (but instead just appearing) beings claiming Godrealizations have really been gaslit. Infinite Being just goes on being... Infinite. Eternal. Unchanging. Unharmed. In eternal silence & peace. And can neither be "mixered" nor "gaslit".

 

Selling dumb ideas, like mixers for crocodiles or Aliens

by

the River 

Edited May 24, 2024 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

11 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Water by the River @Javfly33

Of course, psychedelic experience is ego too. Meanwhile, the one who understands these sentences are ego too. Let them take 10 gr dried shrooms, and let's see what will happen to them? Most likely, if nothing happens, the reason of it is they know that any experience is ego and they do not react any feelings, emotions or experience, only that's why. Not because of they are in love always. 

If there is only Your True Infinite Being, what is there not to love? There is no other.

The only "thing" not loving is the self-contraction called ego or separate-self-Gestalt. That self-contraction hindering the flow of love can be switched off a lot  by 10g dried shrooms, quite sufficiently to give a foretaste (I know, but wait and see...) to what happens when the flood-gates of the self-contraction become disassembled structurally, or thrown into the mixer. Then, the River can flow unconstricted by the self-contraction called ego, or separate-self. Which kills any remaining separate-self-contraction even further.

https://beezone.com/1main_shelf/self_contraction_04_05_06.html

separate self= self-contraction= ego (large parts of it) = separation= fear = not nondual = not awakened = not love

psychedelic = temporary off-switch of that self-contraction.

 

Ok, Water by the River admits that this is not really a new discovery:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccidānanda

Some guys had that insight already 2 millenia ago already, so it appears Water by the River is dishing out old wine in new bottles. But it seems, eternal unchanging Being implies handing out old wine in new bottles every generation...

Selling River = love by the River

[Javfly33]

59 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston is wrong

Ralston and the whole vedic tradition?

Shiva= That which is not.

Chatananda rupah = I am the form of consciousness and bliss.

How can something that contain all experiences be an experience?

Is not bound by anything. Not even the apparent higuest realizations. The Real Self is holding and containing those states effortlessly, being untouched by any of It.

 

Edited May 24, 2024 by Javfly33

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Ralston and the whole vedic tradition?

 

Reminds me of:

Nietzsche: God is dead.

God: Nietzsche is dead.

[James123]

34 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

If there is only Your True Infinite Being, what is there not to love? There is no other.

The only "thing" not loving is the self-contraction called ego or separate-self-Gestalt. That self-contraction hindering the flow of love can be switched off a lot  by 10g dried shrooms, quite sufficiently to give a foretaste (I know, but wait and see...) to what happens when the flood-gates of the self-contraction become disassembled structurally, or thrown into the mixer. Then, the River can flow unconstricted by the self-contraction called ego, or separate-self. Which kills any remaining separate-self-contraction even further.

https://beezone.com/1main_shelf/self_contraction_04_05_06.html

separate self= self-contraction= ego (large parts of it) = separation= fear = not nondual = not awakened = not love

psychedelic = temporary off-switch of that self-contraction.

 

Ok, Water by the River admits that this is not really a new discovery:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccidānanda

Some guys had that insight already 2 millenia ago already, so it appears Water by the River is dishing out old wine in new bottles. But it seems, eternal unchanging Being implies handing out old wine in new bottles every generation...

Selling River = love by the River

Do you know understanding these sentences is ego too, ego is the entire universe?

[Water by the River]

40 minutes ago, James123 said:

ego is the entire universe?

Could be semantics, but sounds like a mightily extended ego . Wonder if that fits through the eye of the needle.

 

 

[James123]

23 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Could be semantics, but sounds like a mightily extended ego . Wonder if that fits through the eye of the needle.

 

 

What do you think ego is? What do you mean but eye of the needle? 

[Javfly33]

9 minutes ago, James123 said:

What do you think ego is? What do you mean but eye of the needle? 

Ego is identification with thought.

[Water by the River]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

What do you think ego is? 

Well, in that usage I meant separate-self with ego.

But ego is also the functional unit of the human. And if its transcended and no longer separate, its all nice and well:

The Meaning of Egolessness – Ken Wilber, One Taste

Precisely because the ego, the soul and the Self can all be present simultaneously, we can better understand the real meaning of egolessness,a notion that has caused an inordinate amount of confusion. But egolessness does not mean the absence of a functional self (that’s a psychotic, not a sage); it means that one is no longer exclusively identified with that self.

One of the many reasons we have trouble with the notion of egoless is that people want their egoless sages to fulfill all their fantasies of saintly or spiritual, which usually means dead from the neck down, without fleshy wants or desires, gently smiling all the time. All of the things that people typically have trouble with money, food, sex, relationships, desire they want their saints to be without. Egoless sages who are above all that is what people want. Talking heads is what they want. Religion, they believe, will simply get rid of all baser instincts, drives and relationships, and hence they look to religion, not for advice on how to live life with enthusiasm, but on how to avoid it, repress it, deny it, escape it.

In other words, the typical person wants the spiritual sage to be less than a person, somehow devoid of all the messy, juicy, complex, pulsating, desiring, urging forces that drive most human beings. We expect our sages to be an absence of all that drives us! All the things that frighten us, confuse us, torment us, confound us: we want our sages to be untouched by them altogether. And that absence, that vacancy, that less than personal, is what we often mean by egoless.

But egoless does not mean less than personal, it means more than personal. Not personal minus, but personal plus all the normal personal qualities, plus some transpersonal ones. Think of the great yogis, saints and sages from Moses to Christ to Padmasambhava. They were not feeble-mannered milquetoasts, but fierce movers and shakers from bullwhips in the Temple to subduing entire countries. They rattled the world on its own terms, not in some pie-in-the-sky piety; many of them instigated massive social revolutions that have continued for thousands of years.

And they did so not because they avoided the physical, emotional and mental dimensions of humanness and the ego that is their vehicle, but because they engaged them with a drive and intensity that shook the world to its very foundations. No doubt, they were also plugged into the soul (deeper psychic) and spirit (formless Self) the ultimate source of their power but they expressed that power, and gave it concrete results, precisely because they dramatically engaged the lower dimensions through which that power could speak in terms that could be heard by all.

These great movers and shakers were not small egos; they were, in the very best sense of the term, big egos, precisely because the ego (the functional vehicle of the gross realm) can and does exist alongside the soul (the vehicle of the subtle) and the Self (vehicle of the causal). To the extent these great teachers moved the gross realm, they did so with their egos, because the ego is the functional vehicle of that realm. They were not, however, identified merely with their egos (that’s a narcissist), they simply found their egos plugged into a radiant Kosmic source. The great yogis, saints and sages accomplished so much precisely because they were not timid little toadies but great big egos, plugged into the dynamic Ground and Goal of the Kosmos itself, plugged into their own higher Self, alive to the pure atman (the pure I–I) that is one with Brahman; they opened their mouths and the world trembled, fell to its knees, and confronted its radiant God.

Saint Teresa was a great contemplative? Yes, and Saint Teresa is the only woman ever to have reformed an entire Catholic monastic tradition (think about it). Gautama Buddha shook India to its foundations. Rumi, Plotinus, Bodhidharma, Lady Tsogyal, Lao Tzu, Plato, the Bal Shem Tov these men and women started revolutions in the gross realm that lasted hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years, something neither Marx nor Lenin nor Locke nor Jefferson can yet claim. And they did not do so because they were dead from the neck down. No, they were monumentally, gloriously, divinely big egos, plugged into a deeper psychic, which was plugged straight into God.

There is certainly a type of truth to the notion of transcending ego : it doesn’t mean destroy the ego, it means plug it into something bigger. (As Nagarjuna put it, in the relative world, atman is real; in the absolute, neither atman nor anatman is real. Thus, in neither case is anatta a correct description of reality.) The small ego does not evaporate; it remains as the functional center of activity in the conventional realm. As I said, to lose that ego is to become a psychotic, not a sage.

Transcending the ego thus actually means to transcend but include the ego in a deeper and higher embrace, first in the soul or deeper psychic, then with the Witness or primordial Self, then with each previous stage taken up, enfolded, included and embraced in the radiance of One Taste. And that means we do not get rid of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which higher truths are communicated. Soul and Spirit include body, emotions and mind; they do not erase them.

Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant manifestation of Spirit. All Forms are not other than Emptiness, including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the ego, but simply to live it with a certain exuberance. When identification spills out of the ego and into the Kosmos at large, the ego discovers that the individual atman is in fact all of a piece with Brahman. The big Self is indeed no small ego, and thus, to the extent you are stuck in your small ego, a death and transcendence is required. Narcissists are simply people whose egos are not yet big enough to embrace the entire Kosmos, and so they try to be central to the Kosmos instead.

But we do not want our sages to have big egos; we do not even want them to display a manifest dimension at all. Anytime a sage displays humanness in regard to money, food, sex, relationships we are shocked, shocked, because we are planning to escape life altogether, not live it, and the sage who lives life offends us. We want out, we want to ascend, we want to escape, and the sage who engages life with gusto, lives it to the hilt, grabs each wave of life and surfs it to the end this deeply, profoundly disturbs us, frightens us, because it means that we, too, might have to engage life, with gusto, on all levels, and not merely escape it in a cloud of luminous ether. We do not want our sages to have bodies, egos, drives, vitality, sex, money, relationships, or life, because those are what habitually torture us, and we want out. We do not want to surf the waves of life, we want the waves to go away. We want vaporware spirituality.

The integral sage, the nondual sage, is here to show us otherwise. Known generally as tantric, these sages insist on transcending life by living it. They insist on finding release by engagement, finding nirvana in the midst of samsara, finding total liberation by complete immersion. They enter with awareness the nine rings of hell, for nowhere else are the nine heavens found. Nothing is alien to them, for there is nothing that is not One Taste.

Indeed, the whole point is to be fully at home in the body and its desires, the mind and its ideas, the spirit and its light. To embrace them fully, evenly, simultaneously, since all are equally gestures of the One and Only Taste. To inhabit lust and watch it play; to enter ideas and follow their brilliance; to be swallowed by Spirit and awaken to a glory that time forgot to name. Body and mind and spirit, all contained, equally contained, in the ever-present awareness that grounds the entire display.

In the stillness of the night, the Goddess whispers. In the brightness of the day, dear God roars. Life pulses, mind imagines, emotions wave, thoughts wander. What are all these but the endless movements of One Taste, forever at play with its own gestures, whispering quietly to all who would listen: is this not you yourself? When the thunder roars, do you not hear your Self? When the lightning cracks, do you not see your Self? When clouds float quietly across the sky, is this not your very own limitless Being, waving back at you?

 

 

7 minutes ago, James123 said:

What do you mean but eye of the needle?

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Or maybe you have not passed the Gateless Gate. Not big enough for the remains of the frog , even though in your case, they are quite thinned out thanks to some, ummm, substances, contemplation and meditation. 

But alas, even an Camel Alien can't pass the eye of a needle. Same with the Gateless Gate. 

Also ET needs the Mixer in order to have stable nondual Infinite Awakening sobre in daily life. And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti is the mixer. Not this Alien, not that Alien.

Just a metaphor used in this little Lèse-majesté

Sorry, was a bit unprecise in recycling that metaphor.

 

Selling Water by Crocodile-River

[James123]

2 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Ego is identification with thought.

How do you know? Where is the ego and thought?

[Javfly33]

53 minutes ago, James123 said:

How do you know? Where is the ego and thought?

I couldn´t answer that. But I know something for sure, that what I am can not be a thought.

So when a thought arises that seems to be 'me', I call that ego.

But is a label im using, you could call it mis-identification, or mistake in perception or mistake in recognising the true reality of one self. 

[James123]

10 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

So when a thought arises

Any thought is you. Fundemantally, If there is no such thing as thought, what is left?

[Javfly33]

11 minutes ago, James123 said:

Any thought is you.

In my experience, a thought can be a conscious or unconscious manifestation of me, but is not ever me.

Is simply as this, a thought about anything that appear, but when that kind of thought is not appearing, I still exist.

So a thought can not ever be me, it can appear, as me. But is not really me.

In other words, I don´t need a thought to exist. 

 

Quote

If there is no such thing as thought, what is left?

Not sure how to answer that question. 

Edited May 24, 2024 by Javfly33

[James123]

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

In other words, I don´t need a thought to exist. 

 

Exist or existence is an another thought itself.

1 minute ago, Javfly33 said:

Me

What is you? 

[Javfly33]

33 minutes ago, James123 said:

Exist or existence is an another thought itself.

Yeah, in a way I agree with that.

Quote

What is you? 

That which has no existence or physical manifestation. 

Edited May 24, 2024 by Javfly33

[LSD-Rumi]

5 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Wise words. Ralston already said It one of his videos.

He took a bunch of Acid after enlightment to "test" is what It is, would Still be the same.

He said "nothing changed".

Or maybe his mind is designed differently. Ram Dass's guru did the same thing. He took all the acid in Ram Dass's hand and  swallowed them , and basically mocked psychedelics. But the thing is, this doesn't prove that psychedelics don't work, it proves that they don't work on a specific person. 

Some people don't get drunk from alcohol. some people were immune to smallpox, some didn't die from rabies, some were drawn for >30 minutes without dying, etc. There is an exception for every case.

Edited May 24, 2024 by LSD-Rumi

[Javfly33]

20 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Or maybe his mind is designed differently. Ram Dass's guru did the same thing. He took all the acid in Ram Dass's hand and  swallowed them , and basically mocked psychedelics. But the thing is, this doesn't prove that psychedelics don't work, it proves that they don't work on a specific person. 

Some people don't get drunk from alcohol. some people were immune to smallpox, some didn't die from rabies, some were drawn for >30 minutes without dying, etc. There is an exception for every case.

Psychedelics do work, and I want to apologise for saying they are 'crap' the other day. That was exaggerated, They are not crap, first psychedelics did were the most therapeutic gift I ever received ever. 

However, confusing enlightment with psychedelic or mystical experiences IME is the mistake. 

Im sure Ralston Tripped absolutely balls. But he meant that the realization of the Self did not change. The Self is there when taking a coffee, and is there while tripping balls!