Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

No they can't, because Islam is not compatible with Marxist communism.

You can try to astroturf it for a while, but it will fail, as it did.

All the communists parties morphed and changed their ideology to fit their needs.

And that’s not why it failed. It got overthrown for other reasons and wasn’t popular even among the secular leaning city dwellers because of its dictatorial behavior. 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

They consider the West Bank Israel!!!

That is the whole issue here.

Israel does not recognize Palestine as a soverign country, to them that whole land is basically Israeli land and Palestinians living there are a minority that are not citizens.

Yeah, that's how Americans treated the Native Americans. Push them out until they die out.

[Atb210201]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Kanye West says the same. Classic antisemitic trope.

Yeah maybe

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

and wasn’t popular even among the secular leaning city dwellers because of its dictatorial behavior. 

Leninist Communism is literally defined as "the dicatorship of the proletariat". 

So yeah, it's dictatorial. People hate it. And water is wet.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, that's how Americans treated the Native Americans. Push them out until they die out.

USA was not a liberal democracy until the civil rights act.

I think we have different ideas of a liberal democracy maybe.

To me a liberal democracy is a country that treats all humans as equal and does not torture, abuse, rape, murder people even if they are not citizens.

Basically a country like Belgium, Sweden, Ireland etc.

USA was basically an apartheid until the late 1960s, not liberal.

From what I have seen USA treats their illegal refugees 1000000000x better than Israel treats people in the West Bank.

Same with France, Sweden, Germany etc.

Even though those people are illegally staying in those countries and not citizens.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

USA was not a liberal democracy until the civil rights act.

I think we have different ideas of a liberal democracy maybe.

To me a liberal democracy is a country that treats all humans as equal and does not torture, abuse, rape, murder people even if they are not citizens.

Basically a country like Belgium, Sweden, Ireland etc.

USA was basically an apartheid until the late 1960s, not liberal.

It was a liberal democracy in its ideals from the 1700s, but the actualization of those ideals takes a lot of time and is far from ideal.

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Leninist Communism is literally defined as "the dicatorship of the proletariat". 

So yeah, it's dictatorial. People hate it. And water is wet.

What usually happened was it became an actual dictatorship where the proletariat had even less power which was the problem. A true dictatorship of the proletariat was never properly achieved.

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It was a liberal democracy in its ideals from the 1700s, but the actualization of those ideals takes a lot of time and is far from ideal.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-forces-kill-palestinian-child-every-two-days-west-bank

How come USA, France, Belgium, Germany etc do not do this to the illegal migrants that live in those countries?

I do not see USA shoot migrant childreen with snipers nor Germany put Afghanis in mass scale torture chambers.

Immigrants do crimes in those countries, just like the locals, yet both get equal treatment before the law.

Can you explain this difference?

Since Israel has same values as them according to you.

[Raze]

I don’t buy the argument that the US supports Israel for shared values, the US has supported many dictatorships and crushed many democracies.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

What usually happened was it became an actual dictatorship where the proletariat had even less power which was the problem. A true dictatorship of the proletariat was never properly achieved.

That's cause that's what communism is in practice. It was acheived. It's just a dish no one likes the taste of once they have a bite.

[Atb210201]

Here's another conspiracy theory famous in Iran against Jews 

They say Jews are in touch with Jinns (higher dimensional beings named jinns in Islam which muslims are not allowed to get in touch with according to the Quran) and that's why they have so much power and wealth and technological advances because they did not listen to God and got in touch with occult and jinns which God forbade because they were activities for worldly purposes

And also jinns are actually demons made from fire according to the Quran

Edited September 21, 2024 by Atb210201

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

Here's another conspiracy theory famous in Iran against Jews 

They say Jews are in touch with Jinns (higher dimensional beings named jinns in Islam which muslims are not allowed to get in touch with according to the Quran) and that's why they have so much power and wealth and technological advances because they did not listen to God and got in touch with occult and jinns which God forbade because they were activities for worldly purposes

And also jinns are actually demons made from fire according to the Quran

What's crazy is that Islam recognizes as valid all the major Jewish prophets and they believe in the same God as Jews. Yet they treat Jews like aliens.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What's crazy is that Islam recognizes as valid all the major Jewish prophets and they believe in the same God as Jews. Yet they treat Jews like aliens.

Jews were actually allowed to live peacefully in many Muslim countries to escape antisemitism in Europe. Ironically after the creation of Israel in response to the culmination of European antisemitism in the holocaust, it caused a wave of antisemitism in muslim countries whereas antisemitism began dying out in European countries. 
 

Edited September 21, 2024 by Raze

[Atb210201]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What's crazy is that Islam recognizes as valid all the major Jewish prophets and they believe in the same God as Jews. Yet they treat Jews like aliens.

I think it's because Prophet Muhammad had some conflicts and wars with the Jews and they didn't accept him and they fought it is even in the Quran that jews were enemies of islam when prophet wanted to preach the new religion they were hostile towards him and islam so I think that's another reason for the hostile attitude

Although I don't think these stories are the main reasons for all the hostility but I guess they play a huge role as well

But yeah God is the same for all Abrahamic Religions and the war between them all is really really crazy in the sense that all they ever preached was worshipping God and being united not divided as we are all creations of God

The ultimate message of them all

Edited September 21, 2024 by Atb210201

[Leo Gura]

The problem with Islam is that is has always been intertwined at its root with building a Muslim caliphate and political conquest. So the politics is intertwined with the religion, which makes for bad religion and bad politics.

[Karmadhi]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What's crazy is that Islam recognizes as valid all the major Jewish prophets and they believe in the same God as Jews. Yet they treat Jews like aliens.

From what I have read most of the Muslim hatred towards Jews came because of Israel.

Before, they co lived in harmony (relatively) and were overall treated far far better than Christians treated them.

There are countless reports of Jews living in the Israel/Palestinian land peacefully with their Muslim neighbours. 

No ghettos or genocide like in Europe.

It is equally ironic that Christians have the same bible as Jews yet they treated them 100x worse than Muslims until 1945.

One thing I greatly respect about Islamic civilization is that they had great religious harmony and tolerance compared to Christian dominated Europe. Of course there were problems but in the grand scheme of things there was a big difference between Muslim and Christian countries regarding religious tolerance and treatment of other relgious people.

Most Christians would downright burn you if you dared be anything than Christian.

Islam countries made you pay a small tax.

Things went downhill since 19th century regarding this and now Europe is the religious tolerant one.

For centuries it was the opposite.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Atb210201]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with Islam is that is has always been intertwined at its root with building a Muslim caliphate and political conquest. So the politics is intertwined with the religion, which makes for bad religion and bad politics.

Yeah and that is the attitude of Islamic Republic of Iran also the leader of the revolution Ayatollah Khomeini as I've read in a course in university which is a must for everyone to pass called testimonts of Imam Khomeini had that same logical conclusion

He believed that God as a final message sent His final messenger Prophet Muhammad so that he could show the people of the world the perfection of everything which also included the perfect government and that is why he was assigned unlike other prophets to become the ruler of Saudi Arabia to show everyone how to rule righteously

The Olama or people of knowledge who are basically Islamic gurus differ on this subject but most of them in the Islamic Republic follow the same logic and justifications for rulling and politics with the late leader of the revolution

So yeah with this logic Islam always wants to show the world how to rule justly and righteously they will not separate the mosque and the state if you will for that matter and become secular

Although other Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia the birthplace of islam itself are becoming more west like but some like Iran are still very strict with their religious beliefs

Edited September 21, 2024 by Atb210201

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It was a liberal democracy in its ideals from the 1700s, but the actualization of those ideals takes a lot of time and is far from ideal.

The US has always been a flawed democracy or illiberal democracy.

However, I am starting to believe that their has now been too much democracy. 

We should go back to having the major party presidential nominees in the United States chosen through a process dominated by party elites like what happened before the 1970s. That way the political elites could make sure that someone like Trump never gets nominated for president ever again.

At the same time, we of course need to get rid of the electoral college because it no longer properly represents the will of the people. Without the electoral college neither Trump nor W. Bush never would've become president.

Furthermore, I strongly believe that we need to revive the Fairness Doctrine in a revised, modern form, applicable to all media outlets in the US to promote balanced reporting in all media outlets in this day and age. Otherwise, I fear that our current media environment will truly destroy our democracy.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Hardkill said:

We should go back to having the major party presidential nominees in the United States chosen through a process dominated by party elites like what happened before the 1970s.

That's a bad idea.

The problem is that our democracy is corrupted by special interests, elites, corporations, and low-info partisan media. That's what needs fixing.

Democracy comes in many degrees of quality. It's not a binary. And this quality needs to be up-kept because it naturally deteriorates.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a bad idea.

The problem is that our democracy is corrupted by special interests, elites, corporations, and low-info media. That's what needs fixing.

Yeah, but who nominated Trump for president in 2016 and 2024? The idiotic right-wing voters who are ignorant, racist, and xenophobic did.

You even said before a number of times that too much democracy or too much populism causes complete and utter incompetent leadership.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Leo Gura