Valach

I would argue that the assholes are not being themselves either. No one is an asshole or "mean" person by default. This is usually a learned behaviour to cope with some wounding. Unfortunatly there are a lot of behaviours that are not healthy but a lot of people will resonate with them and find them attractive (usually because their own wounds resonate with that). It's not worth emulating or developing these though.

Maybe we all should focus on more important things than proving to our egos we are right and above some internet forum users.

Of course you would say that

Then explain how was it limiting for you? From the comments you post on here I sincerely doubt you outgrew that stage.

And even more experience will teach you the limits of your approach. It is really just showing off how needy and desperate for validation people who seek this really are. Which is not a bad character trait, most people struggle with this, I do too.

It's a great advice, but it takes time to grow into place to let it land. It will reach you at the right time.

Authentic relating is one of the most healing modalities in my experience. It is basically your conscious mind telling your subconscious that who you are right now is sufficient.

How? I spoke against PUA, not against having sex.

Thanks for wording it out for me. I am not native speaker so struggle with that sometimes. Though for me, it is more about healing and trauma release then about building your external life.

Find a woman to have a sex with if you need to and focus on healing your trauma. Do not waste time on PUA, what is so hard to understand about that?

I am not advocating for building a rotation or doing hookups, just not being celibate.. Beside, 99% of people who have sex do so without even knowing about any PUA stuff.

Find a relationship or fwb via the route you choose (pickup, online dating or social circle stuff) and focus on internal stuff. I remain single and without sex on purpose right now but I understand that it does not really serve guys at different stages of their lives.

I have done plenty of approaching and even semi-coached couple of guys in the community. In the past, that is.

You can satisfy your sexual needs whilst realizing that there is deeper stuff going on and focus on that as well. I am not advocating for people to become celibate.

And you are projecting by that I am projecting, so we keep on having the same discourse for the last 5 months. I can't empirically prove anything as this is not scientific field. It is very hard to quantify something as emotional health or psychological well-being. And you know it.

People in the nigth club are laughing and present, does not make them evolved or healthy. You are free to keep your beliefs. I also used to admire Owen, now I see him as deeply problematic person. But I would probably also not listen at the time.

Too many to name, from what I observed in men in real life: - You learn to objectify woman. - You learn to manipulate people. - You become hedonist. - You become emotionally numb. - You become validation addict. - It will make you struggle with relationships. - You will remain deeply insecure with no real self esteem. The ultimate downside of PUA is that you will burn way too much time focusing on that instead of doing real growth and real healing.

Sure, if it did not have its benefits, guys would not be doing that, I am not disputing that. But you pay the price.

When you look at Owen, do you consider him to be someone who is mature, emotionally healthy?

How do you define healthy, integrated human being? By their ability to get laid?

That does not mean PUA is not unhealthy. The more success you have via it the more it is gonna influence you and you will build identity around it like @something_else said.

@Olaf I can agree with this. Pickup whilst useful at certain stage is deeply problematic.

High value guys by what standards though? Those are societal values that we do not have to align with. I personally do not go to night clubs, I do not drink, I do not really enjoy spending time with people who drink. I also go to bed quite early on. Does that mean I am low value? Or perhaps what we value, as society, is not really sign of maturity or emotional health. I agree for someone who is not really into the self-development/spiritual/healing route and is just a "normie" who is interested in the social skills/dating. But for me personally, the more I dive into healing, integration, self-work, the less I crave any social stuff. It is becoming harder and harder for me to make friends simply due to not being aligned with them. Because I do not value using dating apps. I do not think they are good for individual or for society in general. I also do not really take pictures when travelling and do not feel like taking them just to show them on tinder. I also believe the chance of me finding someone who is aligned with me on there is very low. But you see. The really high value person in my POV (which of course is heavily biased by my own values) does not waste time with socializing, dating or partying all that much. Of course. I mean in my experience girls just feel your energy and judge you based on that. If they feel like you have great energy they will accept whatever weird shit you are doing. Of course as mine energy got better and better, the less spam approaching I did. @something_else To make things clear. I am not defending PUA or spam approaching and whatnot either - I do not do it either. But I simply try to point out the nuance in all of this "high-value" behaviour. I feel like even the desire to look high value in any way is just manifestation of lack of self esteem and self love. My experience is that the guys around me who did a lot of work on themselves are of course not spam approaching either nor doing PUA. But they are not really these social guys with huge social circles or succesfull on tinder either. They prefer to spend more time alone and they are focused on their purposes (which mostly is just helping/serving others). So they do not desire having a lot of friends nor having dating success, eventhough they could. What really changed for me was the realization of how deeply unhealthy our society is. I view the average person as someone who is deeply traumatized and emotionally unwell and addicted to so many distractions. So if someone is "high value" in the eyes of the unhealthy society, it is probably not someone I am gonna be looking up to or trying to imitate.

I am not serious about PUA either, I have my own issues with the stuff as well, though I recognize it has its place in guys development.

I mean sure but you can spin that question for any source really. Why would a high value man be going to a night club? Why would he be on tinder? And what really is a high value man? High value from the POV of woman? From the POV of general society? Or from the POV of your own values which are of course gonna be different for different people and it also depends on the stage of development you are in. I met one of my girlfriends when I was doing "pickup" in the park btw. I even told her she was like 5th girl I approached that day, she didn't give a shit. That is not me defending pickup or shit-tests either. I have a lot of problem with both of these things. It is nuanced.