theleelajoker

@Carl-Richard Well I have to admit I did not really think about it much on a everyday level. Thx for making me reflect on it. There is definitely sth re the transfer of states. Contact high - yes, I experienced it to some degree on festivals or even in clubs with friends that consumed psychedelics. I just never experiences it that strong as with Shakipat. In short - I agree. Breakingthewall often talks about "openness" and I simply like that term. I did and still do integrate this more and more in my life. Indeed I was much more skeptical about - let's call it non-material phenomena - than I am now. But at the same time, I was open enough for Shaktipat to experience a profound effect on me even back then. I don't sense this state as you do. Body language, eyes, tone, breath does not give me this impression. I do see value in his points, though. Yeah..I just don't know. He just does not seem genuinely happy to me. He said in the other video that he does not want to be a teacher and in his seminar he gave that that exact impression of "I DO NOT WANT TO BE HERE, I DO NOT CARE, I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU AND IN GENERAL, THIS HERE SUCKS". Of course, that is my impression but similar impressions were also shared by other participants. On the one hand - yes. I understand and agree. On the other hand - then what is this big fuss about enlightenment about? As a result of my participating in this forum, I personally really start to dislike this cult about enlightenment as a state. So I am enlightened, but I am not warm re other people, I live in an unhealthy way, I still get sick, I am insecure, I still have to deal with everyday problems like everybody else - so what is this all about? So I can feel "bliss"? Honestly, I haven't met anyone that I would consider someone being in constant bliss. The most developed people I met were meditation teachers. But they did not seem to be "in constant bliss" - simply calm, empathic, healthy lifestyle and in peace with themselves, their role and their actions. Is this bliss? For me, it's not. Bliss for me is a little bit more. It's not only accepting but embracing ("loving") everything that is. A inner state that is there almost completely independent of matter what happens in the external world (I say almost, because death of loved ones or severe physical injury to me definitely would impact me even in this moments). I remember momentary states and periods in which I consider myself in "bliss". For example: No 1 - during and after long meditation retreats (10 days). No. 2: Psychedelics, e.g. Peyote and Ayahuasca, sometimes even weed. No 3. Falling in love with my partner. I remember these states, and I believe I can sense them quite well in other people, too. And I believe can sense when other people are not in this state as well. Haven't met anyone (yet) that has been in this "enlightened, blissfull state" over an extended period of time no matter what they say... And about enlightenment... Yes, 100 people in this forum probably use 101 different concepts of enlightenment, and yes there a phases and stages, and so on and so on. For me, 90% of these discussions amount to nothing but more mental masturbation. I heard, seen and read it enlightenment bla bla so many times from so many people while at the same time sensing their arrogance, their insecurities and their inauthenticity. Lot's of cheap talk about some mystic state, some strange ideas and propaganda from self-proclaimed gurus and their sheep-like followers who regurgitate the same meaningless phrases and concepts. Meaningless, because talk alone is cheap. What I propose instead? Let's not talk about "enlightenment", let's talk about action. Let's not talk about some abstract conceptualized states, but concrete, subjective experiences and in particular actions. I like the quote "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightenment people, there is only enlightened action" (from Inner Worlds, outer Worlds I believe). Let's assume you are "enlightened" - so then what? Life will put you - if you want it or not - into situations where you have to make decisions and take actions. Let's say "enlightened action" is actions aligned with the Dao / Dharma whatever that may be in this situation. You take "enlightened" actions, you get into this state while executing this action. You don't take "enlightened" actions - you loose that state. But the "state" IS the action, the action is the state. I don't think there is a state independent from your actions. You don't reach enlightenment and then "puff" you stay in this. No - instead your actions determine your state and not vice versa BS like "I am enlightened, I understand, I am in bliss, etc etc." and then you simply remain in this. So what matters in the end is what you do and nothing else. Sorry, but fuck your alleged enlightenment, your alleged state or your alleged bliss. I can't see that, I can't relate to that, only things that matters to me is what you do and how you do it. Don't talk, show it to me with your behavior, show me with your whole being. For me, the whole thing about "enlightenment" is similar to the idea of "Chitta" in the Yoga Sutra. We cannot directly observe it, but we can observe the actions of it. Let's focus on actions with "enlightenment", too.

I am guessing: Our perception (our senses) only allows us to perceive a fragment of total reality. And even if you could perceive more information, we might "translate" it incomplete with our limiters tools (human form). Example: Colours do not exist the way we perceive them. Objects do not have colours. Our organism detect some light waves and translates it into colour. There are other frequencies in the spectrum of light waves that we cannot perceive. They remain hidden. Example 2: Take a look at dark matter and dark energy. Not the same, but similar concept about a) what we can perceive b) what we can measure c) what we interpret d) what exists

Accept it. For now. Be open to the feeling of just drifting. Reduce or even eliminate your resistance to feeling without a purpose. It will pass. Sounds to me like duality is in play. Can't have purpose without the feeling of no purpose, etc etc. Is there sth that you can do NOW to re-focus from mind to body sensations? I recommend doing that specific activity.

Very interesting coincidence you mention Jan and Shaktipat. In late 2019 - I just had finished my first meditation retreat and came back from living and working 1year+ in India and Nepal - a friend told me about it. Jan was giving a two day seminar in London including Shakitpat. He said "seeing where you are right now, this might be the right thing for you". I was very skeptic, but also very curios. I trusted my friend, so I thought "why not give it a look"? I went there. I did not like Jan at all. He was super boring, pessimistic, defensive, depressed, moody, the complete opposite of being inspiring. I thought about leaving early but stayed for the Shaktipat transmission. Other participants said sth like "yeah he is like that but we are here for the Shaktipat". Well, it seems you have to take the good with the bad... After a while the participants - including me - were getting the Shaktipat. Shortly after, there was a lunch break and I went into a small cafe with another participant to eat. We talked about the Shakipat, asking ourselves if we feel something. We kind of felt something, we talked about it....and the next thing that got us out of our conversation was the waitress telling us that it's early evening and that the cafe now closes! How is that possible, we just sat down moments ago for lunch? We talked for hours and we did not notice that time passed. It was crazy. Be both could not really describe what exactly was going on. We felt different and the Shaktipat definitely did sth to us. We both felt the same. If I had to describe it, then I would say it was like being high on very clean, very sharp MDMA but without the visuals. A very functional state of consciousness, being "high" without really noticing being high. I completely forgot about this experience until now. Looking back at it now, I can take some conclusions from it: Either Shakitpat is real - or they were serving us psychedelics in the cafe Assuming the first, you can - at least temporarily - transfer states of consciousness from one person to the next one. How fucking crazy is that? I could not really contextualize this experience 5 years ago. Today it seems even more strange to me. Your guru, or teacher can be a really shitty person and still have something real about him. Indian philosophy is coined by the idea that your teacher must live the teaching, that he should embody the principles in daily life (see e.g.: Heinrich Zimmer: Philosophies of India). I personally experienced that the complete opposite can be true as well. What an irony that the video above is in the context of "positive" life interview (LOL) as Jan is the most depressing teacher I ever met re any spiritual teaching. But who knows, maybe he just had a bad phase... Shakipat alone does not really seem to change much in the long run. Many participants were already there for the second, third, fourth time. Can be a piece in the puzzle, but not more than that. Beyond the experience at the cafe I did not notice any changes in my state of consciousness or my life in general. Who knows, effects might be subconscious but I never felt like doing another Shakipat again. "Bliss" and Enlightenment" seem very arbitrary. In the video above, Jan says he feels bliss right now. I don't get the feeling he does. Same way he did not seem to be in bliss when I saw him. Admittedly, only once for two days many years ago. But my impression re this is very constant.

There is something to it. I already thought about it as well. The bold statements hit the nail on the head IMO. Should not be a problem to be "conscious" and powerful as well. Look at Goenka and what he created- Vipassana Centers, donation-based, all around the world. He visited prisons to help the inmates. Not saying Vipassana is perfect or that Goenka is but it's an example how to use power in a "conscious" way. So, I am neither wealthy, nor am I powerful and other people are shaping the world and its course. And frankly, it bothers me. The most powerful men I know are to a large degrees assholes. Narcissistic, egoistic, manipulating, fake, lying assholes. Clearly, sth is missing re my "game".

Personal opinion: Bullshit. Simple reason for this: I cannot imagine that just observing, being, breathing, feeling causes depression, anxiety etc. Simply does not make any sense for me If you really get anxiety etc. after meditation, then rather because you had it before, suppressed it and now it's just coming up / you beginn to notice it. Yes, the article says "people without previous mental health problems" - but who's to judge that? I know countless people that say "I am fine". Those people certainly believe so and are honest about it from their POV. But it is very obvious in voice, eyes, body language, addictions, observed behavior etc that they are not fine. I am very skeptical re our current cultural definition of "mentally healthy" You certainly can do it "wrong" - stress yourself about meditation, build expectations, blame yourself re discipline, overemphasize its use re self-improvement, playing intellectual games, attitude of non-acceptance etc. I believe it's rather about what a person (our western culture) makes of mediation: Money making, self improvement, harmful cultural programming, incompetent teachers. Yeah, I know the article says that buddhists already discussed many years ago. Re this, see points No 1.-3. that IMO apply not only today but any time Which paper gets more attention? One paper saying "meditation is bad" or the 10.000st article saying "meditation is good?" Curios if someone has a completely different opinion - I'm open for arguments against my above position

@Spiritual WarfareYou did not ask me. I don't care and I am not joking. The "how" IMO is as equally simple as it can be hard. Just listen.

Yes, I can relate to that so much. Had some business meetings today and I can still feel that situations when I fought against or took the emotional/psychological risks, when I fought with my expectations of how I want things to go etc. And - I clearly remember how reality opened up for me, how the whole vibe and mood in the room changed when I did. Very magical experience. And yes, it only works step by step, little by little for me too. And yes, it has to be in everything. Try to gain control and I loose.

LOL synchronicities like this we typed the "door" analogy at the same time

Yes I can relate to that. Compared to the previous months and years, I also experience extended periods where I am more present. Less thinking. Less definitions. More - or at least more noticeable - synchronicities. Just talked to my gf about yesterday, just my impression that reality lately feels different in some moments. As if life opens a door for me, all I have to do is enter. The price of admission is openness - especially when interacting with other people. Just as you said in a post some time ago - got to stay open when interacting with others or you loose your openness...

@Breakingthewall I don't know exactly why or how, but lately you express some content that simply stick with me. These ideas about infinity you post about...there is sth to it (for me). It happened by accident, but I can't stop listening to the "asankh jap" mantra. Even before I researched the meaning of these words they magically connected to me.

You're a funny character. And your proof is undeniable, flawless and utterly convincing. You should start a lawsuit against god and make sure he gets what he deserves!

Bold above marked my me. Some months ago, I had a strong psychedelic trip. I stayed as calm as possible and with my eyes closed, I saw hundreds of images inside my head. Like a movie played extremely fast. I did not have a chance to recognize what these images were - a flashback through my life or sth else - but there was a very concrete feeling. This feeling was "I cannot go anywhere". Later there was another very concrete feeling - "I want to be here" Of course it does not prove anything, who knows where this came from. But reading the post above immediately reminded me of this moment. LOVE THIS Yeah, concerning free will in general...dunno, sometimes I feel like a puppet, sometimes like a free entity, sometimes in between. Maybe it's a construct that is too strict - free will or no free will? Maybe it's something in between? Like when you mix two different liquids and you cannot separate them afterwards. So there is a part that we can choose, a part that is determined and the result is a ...pina colada.

@sincerity: Same applies to you ; )

@Sincerity Few comments below. Obviously I don't know anything as well but it's my current understanding of how certain things work. I see parallels to your ideas and Stanislav Grovs work ("Cosmic Game - Borders of Human Consciousness"). Maybe it won't disgust you - who knows what your energy will say ; ) General Context: I also believe there are archetypal energies. They just are and they want to be expressed. I like your "one thought / one energy is dominant in each moment" I like your "you do not choose actions". Yeah, actions are just the "means to an end", and the end is some kind of energy. For me: First there is the energy, the energy then get's translated into a desire, an intention and (finally) an action. Sometimes the translation is a thought that becomes conscious ("oh what about doing this or that") and sometimes it's translated directly into action before my thoughts and intentions become noticeable for me. Then I am like "OK this just happened" Sometimes I clearly can identify feel like "ok now I need male energy" (meeting with male friends), sometimes I feel like female energy (spending time with sister, gf). Sometimes it's only afterwards "OK I did not know but I really needed that" The more I progress in my life, the more sensitive I get re energies, noticing them, feeling them, intuit them. It's not as easy within myself, more easy with others. Sometimes I stand next to a person and I cannot but notice their energy, their vibe. Re Choice: Sometimes I wonder if the only free choice we have is the choice to resist or not to resist the urge of the energy to express itself Sometimes I think the only choice we have is HOW we express the energy. For instance, if I feel (mentally or physically) aggressive, then I can start a fight with someone and (unintentionally) hurt this person. Or I go to sports, express the aggression playfully in consent with my opponent. Or looking at the BDSM scene, I think this is another part where aggression can be expressed playfully, ideally with someone that has the submissive energy within that wants to be expressed (win-win ) How to deal with it: Gaining control by letting go of control - yeah. Gaining agency to get out of victimmode - yeah. In an ideal scenario, it's like seeing myself as a partner of this energy: "OK, you want to do that - let's make it easy for both of us! I accept your need to be expressed, but let's see how we do that best, shall we?" (much easier said than done ) Your process of writing and getting into an dialog, changing believes makes sense to me; sounds like shadow work and reducing blockages / limiting believes that are in the way of expressing sth My recommedation: Watch out not to focus on mind, believes and thoughts only. IMO, the body stores engery / blockages and you need to speak the language of the body (stretching, sports, massage, walking, touching, cuddling, sex...) , combining this with everything that is language as in words and thoughts Conclusion: Yeah....at this moment, don't really have anything of value to add to this to be honest. Simply don't know.

Yes I agree Yes Yeah as soon as the resistance to "what is" goes, the "problem" disappears. Now it's simply an activity, an experience. Of course, it's simple but not easy

@IshangaHm my post is coming from a different perspective. It's about causality and the individuals ability to create specific manifestations by following a certain method. The 50lb brick - this will hurt, I will scream and do everything to avoid the physical pain. It's real as hell. I don't want to go into the "not real all emptiness" discussion, I am quite tired of this. What I mean is that "I" can come up with 1000+ explanations how I manifested the experience. How I can direct my experiences, how I can casually create this or that experience (Wealth, love, adventures etc.) - and maybe none of this is true? Several 1000 years of humanity, and every week there is a new video "how to really manifest, how to powerfully manifest, how not to manifest". I habe been influenced by such concepts as well, currently I am becoming more an more skeptic Let's assume we put these people in the trenches of war in Ukraine, let their plane crash in the andes etc and then see if their manifestations techniques work. Now you maybe rightfully ask what is the alternative? For me, simplicity has a certain charme. Simiiar to Breakingthewall's "open and closed" it simply goes like that: 1. Minimize your resistance to what it (open to experience, or closed to it). 2. Experience and express (goes along with emotional charges that might be there) 3. See what happens next 4. Repeat What's the difference now? I am not claiming to "manifest" anything, to create anything. I am just taking the ride that is offered. Maybe that's the only choice we have in life? To resist, or to not resist? To be open, or not to be open?

Anyone here considering that manifestation simply does not exist? Stanislav Grov once made a comparison. Imagine you watch a movie, and you see a man (let's call him Luke) shoot another man. The man that has been shot starts to bleed, he goes to the ground. He winds himself in pain. Eventually he lies still on the ground and we as viewer of the movie believe that Luke, the shooter, killed man no. 2. But nothing like that has happened. The man that has been shot is alive. He's well. And Luke, our shooter, did nothing of consequence. So...you get where I am going, right?

Concepts, techniques, methods for me are: 1) Like a boat. Once you crossed the river, you leave the boat behind. You're strong enough to swim without a boat? Swim. 2) Like the crumbs of bread in Hänsel and Gretel: Once you found the next one, the old one looses all his value. Moreover: If you look to hard for the crumb of bread, you miss the root in front of you, you stumble and you blame others for their flawed concepts lol

@Ishanga: Thx did not know this! @whatamI: Did not know this, either. Meditation center I knew but the part with DMT and Iboga ist new for me. I also find the "awakentheworld" stuff high quality content. Started with the "Inner worlds outer worlds" series many years ago and sometimes I am simply amazed how he condensed such huge amount of information in just an 1h of movie. Lot's of knowledge, same time lots of practical advice as well. Was interested in how others see it. Only thing I don't like is that some movies seem over-dramatized (suspenseful soundtrack at times). All in all, I love his content and I rewatch old parts from time to time. And everytime, I learn something new

What's your opinion on the content? They made different films in the last ~10 years. https://www.youtube.com/@AwakenTheWorldFilm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cross

nice

@r0ckyreed Exactly, that's because YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN BECAUSE YOU CAN'T KNOW! That's the whole point of it. Koans illustrate the limitations of the mind, of the rational thinking, so that you can experience for yourself and find peace in not knowing. Or much more, you stop seeking to understand, know and explain. Inner peace : )

Can't see how you come to the conclusion. My goal re spirituality is for instance is integration of the mental (thoughts, feelings), physical (matter) and spiritual (everything that is not mental or physical) dimensions. In order to do that, I need to open up sufficiently to all of it.