Lila9

Member
 View profile  See their activity

  • Content count

    2,143

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Lila9

  2. Posted · Edited by Lila9

    9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

    I sent you many sources. And none of them are Arab sources. If you do not accept any of them it shows more about your biases than anything else. You can also do research yourself, i found plenty of other sources which I did not send here. So plenty of information about it. At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened. 

    No doubt that Niv is an intelligent guy who sees things both from a stage Yellow and the Israeli perspective and I glad that you value his opinion, it's a positive sign that there is a movement towards more high quality discussions.

    I understand that I might come as too self-biased, but I want to empathize that I don't completely deny mistreatment of Israelies, which are often radical settlers, towards Palestinians, I'm very aware to that and believe me or not, it always was in the realm of my concerns. There is a place for criticism and improvement.

    However, when you share data that is either too biased and ignore the complete picture, or simply share data that is incorrect, I wouldn't accept it and would point to you the other perspective to make you see the whole picture.

    By your posts, you are very biased towards Palestinians and validly concerned with the mistreatment of Israelies towards Palestinians but you deliberately choose to ignore, the actions Palestinians do which led to this response from Israel and insist of seeing Israel as someone who hurt Palestinians without any reason or for arbitrary reasons, which is not the case.

    If you really interested in the complete picture and not only information that suits your bias, you need to understand how Palestinians are raised, how they are groomed since a very young age by terrorist organizations with violent and antisemitic doctrine and be critical of it as well.

    You need to understand that Israeli people live in fear from terror attacks coming from the Palestinian territories, that they have killed Israeli people by committing surprising terror attacks, especially in occasions when we are the most vulnarble like holidays and internal conflicts within ourselves.

    It seems that you don't have compassion towards the Israeli perspective and you are fully dismissive of it.

     

     

     

  4. Posted

    9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

    What did you do, if you had for 18 years, every 1-2 years on average, to go for a quite surgical, limited but smart, intelligence-based operation against a gerilla organization because it just doesn't stop shooting missiles on your villages and cities.

    And every time again, this organization hides behind civilians, what makes western countries who also holds your values, who are supposed to understand your side, to blame you again and again, when you feel this is such an unjustness, because you know you try hard to kill only terrorists.

    But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent.

    But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again.

    And one day this organization which exhuasted you for 18 years, kills 1200 people of you and in such a nightmarish way. Threatening your sense of security and survival in a way you never experienced before, and plus (bonus) when you know hezbollah could also join this surprise (By the original Iranian plan according to reliable sources I can add them) and threaten your very existance seriously.

    This post summes the situation of Israel so well. It's a frustrating situation.

    9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

    But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent.

    But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again.

    This is so true, they are masters at marketing.

     

  5. Posted

    10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

    You spread self-bias with no remorse.

    There is a significant bias here in favor of Palestine, with extensive demonization of Israel and misinformation. Why are you blind to that?

    Of course, if I see someone consuming and sharing incorrect data, I will correct them and explain the other perspective. Don't expect me to support incorrect and misinformed posts just to appear more unbiased for you.

  7. Posted

    6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    @Lila9 Israel has 100x more money than all of Palestine. Why is Israel collecting money from the US?

    For Israel's defense, because Israel is American proxy in the Middle East, an ally, a strategical tool for US. 

    18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

    I will start kicking people out of the politics sub-forum who cannot demonstrate a basic check on their biases.

    Relax, I'm not your enemy, I speak what I know. Take it or leave it.

     

  10. Posted

    41 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html

    https://www.pjcvt.org/blog/palestinian-kids-dont-belong-in-cages-support-hr-2407/

    https://www.savethechildren.net/news/“treated-animals”-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons

    "First world liberal democracy" my ass...

     

    The thing is that these organizations' data can't be trusted.

    Especially Save the Children, there is a lot of critisicm about the credibility of their data and about their true intentions in protecting and advocating for children. They claim to be not biased by they are biased as hell.

    This organization has been researched by NGO monitor which reaserch non-profit organizations such as STC.

    https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/save_the_children_fund/

    Some of their conclusions:

    Quote

    Save the Children runs a number of projects in Gaza and the West Bank, implementing “programs in the areas of education, economic opportunities and psychosocial health… humanitarian assistance, child protection and youth development.”

    Despite a humanitarian mandate, some of these programs include major political and partisan advocacy that fuels the conflict, echoing the Palestinian narrative of victimization.

    Quote

     

    In October 2020, Save the Children published a report on “the impact of the Israeli military detention system on Palestinian children.” Save the Children itself acknowledged that the data presented in the publication “is not a statistically significant or representative sample. As the report intentionally presents children’s experience from their own perspective, it is also important to note that incidents they mention have not been independently verified by Save the Children” (emphases added). The report severely downplays the extent and severity of violence committed by Palestinian minors against Israeli civilians and soldiers, and ignores the widespread phenomena of incitement prevalent in the West Bank.

    The report was “co-funded by the European Union” and features the EU logo

    Quote

    In November 2018, during the violence on the Gaza border, Save the Children stated that “The Israeli government must end the use of sniper fire and live ammunition against children in Gaza. The killing and wounding of children is never acceptable.” Save the Children does not question why these children were present in an obviously violent situation where there was a known potential for injury, nor does the organization condemn Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups’ recruitment and use of children throughout the violence. The NGO also ignored the violent nature of the protests, which have consisted of an organized armed attack on the Israeli border and IDF positions, attempts to destroy and breach the border fence, and sustained arson, rocket, and mortar attacks on Israeli civilian communities.

     

    Quote

    On May 26, 2018, the Dar al Huda kindergarten in Gaza held a graduation ceremony that included the mock killing and kidnapping of Israelis by children dressed as combatants.1 The simulation included sophisticated equipment such as drones, body cameras, military fatigues, body armor, and sniper camouflage. Children wore headbands representing Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), designated as a terrorist organization by the US, EU, and others.

     

    Quote

    On August 2017, Save the Children accused Israel of “target[ing]” Palestinian “educational facilities” and alleged that children “face countless threats in simply trying to reach school and enjoy their basic right to education. These threats include: violence and harassment from settlers/Israeli soldiers on the journey to school, military activity in or around their schools, military or police arresting and detaining children from their classrooms, lost time due to the closure of a military area or firing zone, delays crossing checkpoints…” Save the Children ignored Palestinian incitement of children for violence, the use of schools to indoctrinate children with antisemitic and violent propaganda, and the recruitment and use of Palestinian children by armed groups

     

  11. Posted

    13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

    +1 ❤

    In my opinion, definitely exaggarated enormously by Al Jazeera (mainly) and the like echo chamber.

    It is one thing to talk maturely about problems and to critisize fairly, and it is totally another thing to exaggarate and to lie.

    If there was an approved data that isn't made up by some biased organizations and social media accounts it was another story but here it's not the case. Just a talk with no ground in reality.

    18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

    Palestinian propaganda is way way more corrupt than the Israeli one and fulled with lies. They have one of the most manipulative propaganda in the world.

    This is naiveness to think their inner corruption won't be expressed in their media too.

    Yes and it's crazy that some people buy so easily into this stage red manipulation. Especially westerns. They are probably the types who get easily scammed by criminals.

  12. Posted

    57 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

    They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. 

    Israel has the right to defend itself. It's if Israel limits the access, there is a reason for that, it doesn't come out of no where. Please stop pretending that the people there are innocent victims who never had bad intentions and all they want is to have peace with Israel, it's not correct.

    1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

    I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out.

    Bruh, Israel was occupied by the Arabic empire a while ago, who is the occupier?

    1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

    Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". 

    I doubt that it was happened.

    1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

    I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. 

    Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared. 

    No, it's because there are much worse problems in the world and that people understand that most of these claims about mistreatment of Palestinians are incorrect and made up.

     

  13. Posted

    2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

    Leniency does not radicalize. Impulsiveness, carelessness, and inattentiveness is the opposite of vigilance, which might create opportunities for mischief, but men and women earning money, feeding their families, and living in relative safety are not prone to becoming terrorists who want to suicide bomb you, or throw rockets over at you, because their lives are mostly stable and their families cared for. 

    The worse a situation gets the more you radicalize people. With this action you've not deradicalized anyone, you've created hundreds of thousands of new people willing to do violence across the region. Just like their actions created in you. Again this has perfectly played into Iran's hands, both because of the BRICS angle, American isolationism, many groups having an excuse and gaining a large amount of new recruits.

    You should look at the Palestinian government, who governs then? They are governed by terrorists.

    These people receive so much money frim all over the world, why don't they use it to improve the lives of the Palestinians?

    They radicalize their own people, first and foremost.

  14. Posted

    1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

    I usually use the words ethnic cleansing. It certainly is that. Removing a population, culture or ethnic group from an area. 50%+ of which is now rubble. After that, the definition of genocide is usually numbers. I used it to provoke an emotional response in you. To get you to look at it, because I know it resonates personally with the history of your people.

    I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term.

    I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead?

    And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely.

    It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner.

    1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

    If you want to kid yourself that turning an area to rubble, in an attempt to get hostages back, is a well-planned military operation you can. It's simply false.

    The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk.

    Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. 

    1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

    If it helps to repeat the obvious, yes Hamas were toxic, but that isn't a sufficient word. Hamas brought about the destruction of their own people, they were self-destructive, they viewed you as invaders, and the world as a battleground. That's probably as self-destructive as you can get, they are literally killing themselves both in a spiritual sense (attacking a part of themselves they hate) , but also practically fighting a much larger opponent, because they were radicalized through a chain of events, even to the point that death is somehow a benefit to them. It is certainly not the only place this is visible, its an ongoing radicalization of the youth at present in many countries, with different expressions, even in Western ones.

    Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume.

    In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization.

    Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy.

    This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy.

    1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

     I could try again and say this was because of a chain events you were part of, you were not just victims, but also part of this situation that has manifested, but you are right, logic can't be applied to emotion while the suffering is as raw as it is.

    Just don't try to apply logic to those you hate either, because they are feeling the same thing.

    Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above.

    In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict.

    We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs.

    This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

     

     

  16. Posted

    43 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

    1) No you are not. You are dealing with a % of the population who has become radicalized, more so now because of your actions. Only 1 in 200 people are born psychopaths. 

    This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment.

    46 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

    2) As I have said in other threads and this one, there were multiple ways to handle this situation, you have chosen genocide. 

    This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational.

    This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start.

    55 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

    You have a black-and-white understanding of reality. Where people need to be one or the other. That is not how life is. Its very complicated, with many factors, and a lot of emotion here especially.

    Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

  17. Posted

    6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

    I think we had a missunderstanding. I was referring to whether Jews when they arrived in Palestine during WW2 were treated as bad as Palestinians are treated in the West Bank through the last decades. And I gave examples of the treatment above. So I am talking about the way Jews in Palestine were treated between 1940 to 1947 or so.

    I asked because you rejected my claim that Jews were treated with open arm by Palestine between 1940 to 1947. My question was, was that treatment as bad as the stuff I wrote above?

    The thing is that there were attacks on Jews during these years prior to Israel's establishment, therefore it wouldn't be correct to say that they were welcomed by Arabs with open arms, because they didn't. 

    And it's not like there were Arabs once attacking Jews and it's ended after Israel's established and the occupation of the WB, these attacks have never ended, they have gotten worse during the years and Israel responded to these attacks.

    You criticize the mistreatment of Israel of the Palestinians which is valid, but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them.

    But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel.

    Yet, many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time.

    They exploit good or fair treatment to commit terror. There were so many times where Palestinian women went to the checkpoints with a belly that appears pregnant and requested to pass into Israel in order to get treatment and later it has been found that she is not pregnant but carry an exploitive device or knife with the purpose to stab as many people as she could.

    That's why checkpoints are the way they are, everyday some Palestinians are trying to pass to Israel with ill intentions of killing.

    Not to mention how many times Palestinians killed settlers or just random Israeli people who mistakenly got to the WB because of disruptions in GPS, they are usually welcomed with a mass of people throwing rocks on their cars and they are lucky if they ending up alive.

    When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon.

    And all the times Palestinians managed to enter to the Israeli territory and committed terror attacks and suicidal attacks, against random Israeli people.

    So the picture is much more nuanced than Israelies not treating well Palestinians because they are being 'evil occupiers' and rasicts, or the claim that Palestinians are like the Jews in gettos in the Holocaust.

    Which is a complete distortion of the reality.

    If I or any random Israeli person want to go to the WB, there is no promise that we will end up alive or not injured, while if a Palestinian enters to the Israeli territory, which happens everyday because there are many workers from Palestine, it's more likely that they will return back to their homes in the Palestinian territories safely and alive.

     

     

     

     

  18. Posted

    7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

    I also apologize if I am coming across as too logical rather than emotional or understanding of your emotional state. I have a bias towards wanting to avoid aggression and violence. So any lessening of it I can inspire in anyone, I will usually go out of my way to do. In whatever form works.

    I understand that you have bias of avoiding aggression and violence. I don't think that I'm pro it either.

    This is normal. The last thing that I want is to be in a situation of a war. 

    What I'm trying to say is that we have entered to this war because of this severe expression of violence and aggression towards us and if many in Israel previously believed that this conflict can be resolved peacefully and comfortably, this time there is collective realization or awakening that we don't have an ally for a peaceful and comfortable resolutions, we are dealing with psychopaths who can't tolerate our mere existence that would have eliminate us if they only could, with great pride.

     

    7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

    I do not say things I don't honestly feel or mean. My words only have value if they are truthfully what I am thinking or feeling. The power is mostly with you all, not Hamas currently, they are almost powerless in pure reaction to survive but I think you all feel that way too. Perhaps the energy and focus is best put in showing you that you do have options, power, and a real say in how this goes. Survival thinking is not your only option, you did (and still do have a few allies left willing to help), though you are creating the pure isolationism you feel to be reflected in the world around you. That is a choice on your part, and I wish at least you could understand that you help create and shape the wider reality you experience going forward.

    It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression.

    But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

  19. Posted

    @BlueOak 

    I don't need you to condemn Hamas just to make me feel good if you don't genuinely feel that way. It doesn't matter, it won't change anything.

    You are entitled to your opinions.

    Say what you want to say, and I will express my perspective.

    You shared your thoughts on what Israel should have done, and I responded from my point of view. You can agree or disagree.

    I understand that you value your perspective more because you identify as stage yellow, capable of considering various perspectives.

    You might be right, wrong, or a mix of both. Whatever.

    I want to emphasize again that what you see from a distance may not necessarily reflect what is happening here, for better or worse. Be open to the possibility that your distance can be both a disadvantage and an advantage.

  20. Posted · Edited by Lila9

    2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

    Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

    Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

    And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

    Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

    That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

    If yes then I stand corrected.

    They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot parents in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible. You compare cases of a few radical Jews which saddens most of the Israelies given that it really happened, to a terror policy against Jews and Israel that many Palestinians, if not the majority of the Palestinians, were ok with and celebrated on the streets.

     

  21. Posted · Edited by Lila9

    2 hours ago, zazen said:

    @Lila9  You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t  open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting.

    You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself.

    If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’
     

    How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

    Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves.

    @BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

    I asked you a question first and you haven't answered it, so you are not in a place to say that I don't answer your questions. Answer my question first and then I will answer yours, I really want to know. Do you care about other Palestinians outside of Israel territory? Or do you close your eyes to the mistreatment of Palestinians outside of Israel because they are mistreated by non Israelies?

    If you say that Israel doesn't have the right to exist because of the way it exists now, for me it means that you believe Israel has no right to exist. You can't sugarcoat it. You've tried I know, but your truth is obvious for me. No more word games are required.

    Are there more countries you believe have no right to exist the way they exist? Or Israel is the only one?

    If Israel's existence is not in your best interest, and you consume this great amount of cherry picked content on social media to rationalize your bias, I don't think that you are in a place to call me a propagandist.

    This is very childish and disrespectful indeed, to call someone you don't agree with a propagandist. It also shows that you don't want to learn and make a productive discussion with those whose their lives are directly affected by the conflict. It seems you just want to hold your bias close to your chest, and it also seems that you have the arrogance to look from the far distance and cancel our perspective completely by calling it a propaganda just because it doesn't match your bias.

    I speak my very reality and the reality of people here who care about Israel and love it. We are mainly fueled by love to Israel, not by hatred to Palestinians. This is the motivation.

    Don't fool yourself by calling your opinions objective and more logical, because your opinions about the conflict based on emotional motivation. Behind logic there are emotional motivations.

    This is why I asked you what I asked you, to understand your fundamental emotional motivation of your opinions about the conflict, is this love or hatred?

    I'm aware of the flaws of Israel and the problems here, it's not perfect, but it's not the demon you draw.

    There is no shame in emotions and love, I didn't know that it's a crime to support the country I live in and I also didn't know that you are holding the ultimate truth and everything that doesn't match your biased and limited perspective is a propaganda.

    I don't try to convince you in my truth, I'm fine with you thinking differently than me, and feeling differently than me, I share what I know, take it or leave it.

     

     

     

  22. Posted · Edited by Lila9

    1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

    Yes we can all act on emotion. My first thought when I saw this was Israel should occupy Gaza. That was my emotional reaction, it is usually my emotional reaction when I see noncombatants harmed. Thankfully I have distance from it, so I was able to logically look at the problem, and calculate better options. Israel instead, and I understand why, acted purely on emotion, they acted unilaterally, and with no regard for anything else except revenge. Had they sort out military and diplomatic allies, they would have obtained a more logical systematic view from perspectives with distance to the tragedy, which by the way didn't necessarily mean altering what course Israel took. At the minimum, this current military effort would have been more effective with international support and expertise, with fewer economic, diplomatic, or security problems for Israel (and America) in the long term.

    I wouldn't say that Israel acted with great wisdom, but I can't say that Israel acted purely on emotions either.

    If Israel acted purely on emotions, there was no Palestinian left alive.

    On both Gaza and the West Bank. because if Israel's response matched the emotional suffering Israel has experienced because of the October 7 attack, that would be the outcome, no life on Gaza and the West Bank. 

    It's easy to judge from outside, when your safety and the safety of your loved ones isn't at risk. It's easy to say, from your pov that you would have done this instead of that, because you are not emotionally involved, because the survival and safety of Israel is not in your best interest. It's just a country with people for you and whether it will be safe or at risk won't affect your life and survival that much.

    This is why it's easy for you to talk about logic and cold calculations.

    I'm not disrespecting logic and calculations, I think that strategy and certain emotional distance is required to get good results and it's part of the solution. And I think that given the circumstances, Israel's response is quite logical. 

    I know that you and others here expect super hero holistic, systemic stage yellow solution to the conflict, coming from Israel, but you need to understand that Israel has limitations as well, Israel's government and army are not yellow to pull of such solutions. There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare.

    A country is considered very lucky if it has at least one person in the government with stage yellow thinking.

    Israel's government has mainly blue/orange values while the military has orange values mainly. 

    Israel's neighbors are not Sweden or Denmark, so Israel cannot allow themselves to appear too indifferent to terror because this seen as weakness in this region and it's very easily gets exploited.

    In fact, Israel's recent indifference until the October 7 attack was what gave Hamas the opportunity to commit the attack. With neighbors such Hamas, you can't get to a peaceful solution, or reconciliation. It's either they win and you lose or you lose and they win.

    Israel tried to be peaceful, it didn't work, it made things worse for Israel, it gave Hamas the opportunity to become stronger and become more dangerous.

    It's not to say that Israel can't be criticized. That's valid. But there is a serious problem if Israel is the only one who gets critized.

    It shows that the criticism is not objective and heavily biased, fueld by ill intentions. 

     

     

     

  23. Posted

    39 minutes ago, zazen said:

    So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

    These refugees who are living in other Arab countries, not in Israel. Do you care about them? Have you bothered to check their conditions?

    Is your motivation for advocating for the rights of the Palestinians in Israel in particular, stems from your love to the Palestinians as a group or your hatred towards Israelies?

    If you love and care about Palestinians, then you should love and care about all the Palestinians elsewhere and put accountable not only Israel for mistreating them, but all the countries who have them, for mistreating them because they do mistreat them and worse than Israel could ever imagine.

    If you care only about the Palestinians in Israel, even though there are other Palestinian refugees in suffering, then it might be because you don't like Israel, and your main motivation is hatred for Israel rather than love for Palestinians.

     

     

     

  25. Posted · Edited by Lila9

    15 hours ago, zazen said:

    It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed'  this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' .

    You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values.

    Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. 

    Yet, with all of your wording, it summes up to a war of values.

    Living in a society with stage red values vs stage orange, I don't even need to explain what are the differences because I assume you know, and which is better to live in. Relatively, not ideally. If you have to choose, most likely it would be orange.

    And it's not wise to be letinant with stage red. This is the flaw of green, this demonization of self defense, of having healthy bounderies, of being ruthless with those who are ruthless with you.