BlueOak
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Does everyone representing the right know how many bills the democrats have tried to pass on immigration? A hell of a lot more than the republicans.
This is about perception and the need for labor.
- The perception that the right is strong on immigration and the perception of fear
- The right's worship of capitalism, which requires cheap labor.
- A fascist's need for an opponent.
- A minority of actual left-wing commentators who would advocate for lax border controls. The actual left is so small these days I don't know how anyone with a straight face can blame the actual left for anything practically. Except to try to engineer perception for their own viewpoints.
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27 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:And the Sociology backs me up on this. People who live in more diverse neighborhoods have less trust in their neighbors. This creates a lower trust society where people hunker down instead of communicating with each other, thus ruining the civil society.
Among people who treat race as a reason to trust anyone. For everyone else, one has nothing to do with the other.
The economy benefits from the labor, which means your quality of life is almost directly proportional to the strength, health, and skillset of the labor force. Along with obviously how that labor is used, maintained, and looked after with services.
Culture which underpins everything in society, thrives with new inspiration. People dismiss this, but it both drives and stabilises almost everything about a country or region.
Being a high immigration country and a rich, dynamic one nets you the best minds, the intellectuals want to be there. That is where development happens, that is how you rise and fall as a country in relation to your neighbours over time.
These are some of the benefits of immigration off the top of my head, everyone always wants to shout about the opposite, so you all know those already. Social issues of integration, housing, fear from the unknown or uncertainty, more criminality from the levels of poverty and inequality driving it that an initial immigrant experiences, etc.
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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:I am disappointed that I don't see a genuine desire to understand reality here, but instead the defending of political dogmas.
This is not in the spirit of our work or values here.
Understanding something doesn't mean embracing it.
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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:Just??
Just??
Not just.
This is more important than your liberalism. That's what you don't understand.
To them it is important, I accept that. To me, it's a pigment, the level of melatonin in the body.
Skin color means nothing at all to me. I engage people on an individual basis. Their belief systems, and moreover how they are in that moment, have significantly more to do with how our interaction goes. Black, Brown, White, doesn't matter.
These two perspectives are almost impossible to reconcile; only accept and work out a compromise.
Hence, if you are accepting its importance to them, you have to also accept the same for the other side. That's what you either don't understand or are choosing not to vocalize. That is what the right will not do. So you are expecting me to forever move toward their position, and on these fundamental disagreements of race I cannot and will not. I will fight for the equal treatment of all races under the law and betterment within society till the day I pass from this earth, whenever I am in a position where it's called on to do so. -
5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:Well first it sounds impossible. And after a week or two far left would say it’s inhumane, immigrants can’t be tracked and they all need legal status.
Here is another way to neutralise that from a sensible righting perspective.
Define humane to me in this context. As this too is a conflation. Then humane can be exactly defined in law. I personally think it'll be hard to define humane to mean, not working for the collective good while you are in prison. By hard labor I am meaning useful jobs that contribute.
I feel the majority of the country, including the left are for tracking immigrants. -
This is also the absurdity of nationalism. Rather than try to improve the economic reality of neighbouring countries, so people don't emigrate in the first place, we are threatening to go to war with them instead.
Rather than say to ourselves, let's not paint ourselves as the best nation on earth, and dominate everyone culturally; let's be realistic about our flaws and promote other cultures outside of our own. Then people might want to move there instead! Shocking I know. But nationalists have always and will forever be some of the most clueless people about the world around them because they are always focused nationally.
What about high-speed trains with living accommodation in mexico? What about instead of fighting economic realities, we actually engage with the need for labor, and provide a way to get into the US and out effectively, encouraging those workers to legally register and be tracked? Here is a rightwing help: If penalties are needed, make it hard labor for illegals crossing; give them jobs that fill the labor shortage before they are deported.
Am I the only one who can think of things like this? Is the entire world dumber than me? No, they'd just rather go roll tanks through Washington, shoot at protestors in LA and thump their chest in some desperate way to prop up outdated institutions and ways of thinking, which fight the economic and actual reality rather than guide or fix it. -
4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:I don't see what is illegal about arresting illegals. Leftists want to portray it that way to distract from looking the elephant in the eye.
Again, this issue is being avoided by calling law enforcement illegal when it is 10+ million people who are here illegally. You can't just keep ignoring that as if it isn't a thing.
Doing these raids is designed to create fear, so more illegals don't cross the border. The only way to stop illegals from crossing the border is to make them feel unwelcome.
Again, because you are conflating those engaged in the legal process of immigration with those who are not.
The right, says:
Leftists don't want to talk about illegal immigration or its restriction.I answer:
That's because the right wants to stop all immigration; its not about the legality of immigration or better the ethical or moral framework it is structured under. If we were arguing ethics and morality, at least that'd be an improvement, hell, even the economic reality for all concerned, but we are just arguing skin color Leo and the culture war. It's not an honest discussion of the issues surrounding it, else that'd be what we are talking about.
You saw the quote I gave right? From the Latina's for Trumps co-founder specifically complaining about exactly what I am stating here.
To generate fear effectively at the border, you'd do it at the border. Its about generating fear, yes, but inside the country itself, white supremacists wanting a white state, the people running it like Stephen Miller are white supremacists.
Indirectly you (speaking as the right) are correct that fear will play a factor, but only because you want to ignore everything I am trying to say about legal immigration and the reasons behind this, and the absurdity of turning a city into a warzone, while at the same time complaining it is in fact a war zone. -
@Leo Gura
You representing the right here, are conflating illegal immigration with legal immigration.
Therein lies the point and purpose of the protests against the state, that and the military occupation of a city to conduct these illegal and unconstitutional raids. If immigration law is changed to your position, you'll be arguing for the law, at present, you are not.
But as i've said, morality trumps the law here, even if what you were arguing for here was indeed lawful, it wouldn't be ethical or moral. -
8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:Is this a community of illegals?
What community are you talking about?
Many legal hispanics voted for Trump.
Many of those getting arrested are going through the official channels. This is why the law is being weaponised against the people.
The community in this context refers to those with whom you are directly in contact on a day-to-day basis, or those with whom you associate sufficiently to draw on some of the things I described. Directly or indirectly benefitting from them. Most of the social programs, individual groups and institutions people are not even aware they benefit from until they are no longer in place, but all of them contribute to people's quality of life, experience and the stability or resulting lack of. A lack of stability results in things like the corruption or criminality of your country.
Also:
https://thehill.com/immigration/5339542-latinas-for-trump-co-founder-blasts-mass-deportations/
The co-founder of Latina's for trump quote:“This is not what we voted for,” Garcia wrote in a post on the social platform X. “I have always supported Trump, @realDonaldTrump, through thick and thin. However, this is unacceptable and inhumane.”
“I understand the importance of deporting criminal aliens, but what we are witnessing are arbitrary measures to hunt down people who are complying with their immigration hearings—in many cases, with credible fear of persecution claims—all driven by a Miller-like desire to satisfy a self-fabricated deportation goal,” she continued in her post, referring to White House homeland security adviser and deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller.
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10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:Protesting is important. Keeping Trump accountable is important. It just has to be done intelligently and carefully.
Burning Waymo cars for illegal immigrants is not that. This is leftists behaving like lunatics.
When family is illegally taken from you, while going through the due process of the state, and you are being targeted because of your skin color, why is it you don’t think an expression of anger is entirely logical?
You want this to be bottled up and then taken out on a cop?
I agree it'd be nice if we all lived in a world where emotions could be consciously channeled, but we draw a lot of this emotional strength and stability from our community, and if that community is actively being targetted, splintered and attacked, then this is the result. - *We do this even if we don't consciously realise it, its the energy we are in, its all the shared day-to-day experiences, the tone, the support, the service, the institutions, all the smaller groups in the background, and the overall experience we have of life.
It's like you are looking at one of your hands being beaten black and blue and then wondering why its doing what it can to defend itself. -
3 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:Leo is full of shit. A deeply confused man. A man who openly talks about the corruption of the Trump administration but then defend’s Trump’s illegal policies. A man who talks about the need for growth, love and consciousness but then stays in the same outdated thought-patterns he has for years. A man who talks about the need to question your biases then refuses to do so himself.
Leo in this role is your mentor, he's taking a role that will hopefully help you.
Note: I am generally with your position, and I would be actively organising a group against it if I was in the states and faced with it.
The liberal centralist position is to remain orderly and ride out the status quo, with some political pushback ofc. But honestly they need to effectively use the law to hold ICE accountable also if that is the official opposition. Things like an ICE operative pointing a gun at a distraught wife because they are taking her husband, for example, needs to be quashed now legally and procedurally. Before the next wife gets shot and then all hell breaks loose. - Which is esentially what is going on now, with the law weaponised against the people, not for them.
*International press reporters getting shot isn't exactly going down well either abroad:
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My bills are covered and I have a steady job, but even I find it hard to start a successful business. Get a job any job even if it sucks,, then just keep upgrading but never leave the one you have until you've found better. I tell that to everyone but you'll find it easier to get better jobs if you've been working previously and have the basics covered.
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3 minutes ago, Porphyry Fedotov said:How Latin American immigrants are threatening the survival of average Americans, tho lol? According to all available studies, migrants, whether legal or illegal, commit fewer crimes than locals and work hard. That's hilarious that so many Americans are so spooked by Spanish-speaking brown catholics, who share the same values as MAGA's btw. It is irrational and stupid.
Let's just cut through it: Its largely about skin color. They consider it threatening to their race to have other races or mixed races among them. Most people couldn't even describe culture if you told them about it, or name many countries on a map, let alone understand them. So its skin color, that's it.
What the people enforcing this are doing is trying to rid America of black and brown people, discourage them from arriving. That's why they have so many white supremacists in ICE. Its Nazi leaning, its worse than a fascist doctrine. Shooting at reporters as is going on is fascist, but the overall policy is a Nazi policy. People use that lightly, I don't. The people running the government, not just trump who is a moron but the actual people he has running the show Like Pete Hegstaff, they are Nazi's or at least white supremacists. -
6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:Save your rioting for when Trump actually breaks laws.
No point when the state is fascist its too late. I'll be out in the streets here if it happens.
As much as I say morals are subjective, laws don't trump basic core morality, like simple obvious things. Right to protest etc. Like not breaking up families and arresting people at schools and stuff. I'd be out there too. That's worth fighting for. -
1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:only a rubber-bullet will rouse them.
I know you are taking the opposing position for growth but you still downplaying the severity. It won't be rubber bullets for much longer Leo. There will be mass riots soon. Depending how long the idiocy goes on for.
There is a million better ways I could design to do what you are describing, but the people in charge are foolish just interested in headlines over results. From steady tightening of controls or entry rights to overt fear at the border, to a reduction of rights for new immigrants in ways that people moan about (job preferences)
For example, fear at the border, is less disruptive because its not in the cities, schools, shops, graduation courtrooms (pre sentencing) etc. This is just disruptive and dumb. It's going to lead to violence against the people doing it, and not just in the streets. These are families being torn apart and everyday lives.
You can not paper over that even in a day or week of fear. Or eliminate that anger in a month or a year. It'd take suppression for a decade, more given how racially mixed America is. So all that can be achieved here is a destabilizing of society, because American society is mixed race not solely white.As always humanity does too much rather than do things gradually; duality is so stupid in design.
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I don't usually agree with Hasan
But when he said, if you don't want anarchy or chaos, you have to, at the very least, advocate for due process and be represented by part of government.
If your family and close friends are getting arrested after going to court, while following due process, if nobody represents you, then you do it yourself. It's that simple. The democrats have gone too far right, and too far into pro state/pro-status quo to represent the people they supposedly represent adequately in times like these. Saying, just stay home and stay safe, doesn't work when they are being targeted directly.
So what does that leave? Anarchy, people vs the state.
@PurpleTree
I don't think any one incident would ever do that, but its straining the status quo, and government legitimacy, with no adequate (or sane) official response to it. -
So now trump wants to 'liberate' LA from the people living there. That's you black and brown people out there.
I can't really describe the utter disgust I have for him, and I don't even live there. He must have everyone looking like him, acting like him, praising him and treating him as a king. They disguise it all under fighting illegal immigration and then arrest people going through legal channels like court appearances. It's just a complete farce, and its going to get violent.
I think it'll be waves of violence, with periods of quiet, but again like India/Pakisatan if the wrong person gets killed, on either side, then you've got large riots and/or martial law and civil unrest like we've not seen since the 80s/90s.
Narcissists who need everyone to look like them and love themselves, worshipping them, don't make good rulers; they just don't. Forget about talking about eroding public trust in the police; this is going to set the places affected back 20 years.
Why do I care so much? Because you inspire the same idiocy I have to deal with where I live. Usually a lesser version of it but it filters through everything. -
@Rafael
I get it, we all have things that directly impact us but I don't tend to drop general terms like fascist or nazi without getting a lot of feedback that they are true across the country. Not just in one region or for one type of interaction. I've been using fascist for a few years of the right wing in America, with the obvious addition that elections still exist, there is a mostly free press, protests, etc., and the democrats are not fascist, they are more authoritarian or centre-right. So to say Nazi is difficult, but this is a step in that direction. If it were more targeted to all races, then I would have stuck with fascist, but it seems directly targeted at people with brown and black skin. -
Here is an almost mainstream UK take.
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America is moving from a fascist state to a Nazi state. Certainly not there yet but its on the way, most of the people being targeted are not going to be white.
I don't think i've ever used the race as a factor in any discussion that I can recall, not for years, so I don't use it lightly, but its directly relevant here, especially as many of ICE are white supremacists. -
I've had a lot of arguments in the past with right-wingers where they stated they cared more about having a more single race or culture, than they did a better quality of life, a labor force from immigration. I mean its easy to say that but it'll be different to live it, when you can look at another country with the benefits of a healthy labor force supporting the economy. I am not even talking about cheap labour, just a functioning economy with its needs filled, cheap labor only happens when there is an abundance of it in the first place.
Then again, if the right continue their trajectory, they can only go further fascist or into full-on white supremacists. The point is the right are somewhere between nationalists and fascists now, with left being largely conservative-aligned in many countries. And fascist ideologues can tolerate economic misery for their worldview to be affirmed.
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1 hour ago, Joshe said:Jesus, he named his super computer “Colossus” after a fictional super computer that took over the world. What a goddamn freak. Been saying it for years. If you can’t see Elon’s true colors are that of an APEX predator and not a benevolent philanthropist… massive fail.
Yes. A megalomaniac's AI.
Our creations are usually an extension of us, or those we've involved and consulted. For example, customers, experts, or business partners.
I don't doubt his AI is advising him in some capacity, but if I had built it, it would be in an unpopulated area with minimal or no pollution from the power source, and much of the research time would be dedicated to counteracting or reducing it. Instead he just guts regulation, and spams it everywhere because he's spent years resisting its development and now wants to be king of it.
Nuts. But its so transparent what he's done that I wonder what the wider reaction will be, and how well the lawsuits will do. -
Memphis is being poisoned by Musk in the name of progress and catching up with others.
Original Video -
Align your brand with the AI's obvious growth and interests. - As a result, it will structure your product/system/service etc to support itself and you grow as it does. If you are smart you'll be creating a framework in the process for mutual collaboration.
AI is going to change a lot of things. It won't change supply and demand on the scale you predict.
It'll just create different supply and demand. The AI and moreover the people who will make best use of it are not dumb. Far from it. Plenty of people are in resistance to AI, so they'll suffer the most. Don't be one of them.
in Society, Politics, Government, Environment, Current Events
Posted · Edited by BlueOak
What are the dems supposed to do when every immigration bill they propose the right rejects?
If you mean the left of the dems, the actual left, then no, that's their place. Just like it's the right's place to push for the opposite, in a healthy functioning system, a centre ground would be established, and the two sides of the political spectrum would keep it in check.
The circle of America politics looks like this to me.
The left shouts a few things.
The center shrugs, ignores it, and tries to do politics.
The right ignores the center, and just does outrage drama politics.
The center tries to court the right, and sometimes gets things done, at the cost of becoming ever more right-wing themselves.
The right then have to keep going further right, to remain right of the Dems. Making more outrage, and more nonesense up to keep eyeballs on them.
Then the left shout a few things and the circle repeats.
This is why I say a pure duality political system has failed, not because it can't work, because it isn't working. America is actually a three-pole political system, trying to be a dual system.