Water by the River

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Posts posted by Water by the River

  1. Posted

    31 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

    Finally a worthy opponent lol.

    I also said this: Also when I use ignorance I divide it into two camps: Lack of knowledge due to lack of exposure, and willful ignoring after being exposed. The first you cannot be held accountable for but the last you can. This is why anytime you are blessed with information it is your responsibility to take advantage of that opportunity. There are many who will never get access to certain information so access to information is a blessing and should be valued.

    So there are also people who enter Spirituality then sincerely corrupt the teachings. There are literally people who read all the teachings, then make themselves teachers without ever truly verifying (this part is okay since they are trying to understand) but eventually they even start claiming they KNOW what the truth is even though they haven't verified anything. 

    We have a couple on these forums right now. No mystical experiences, all they have done is conceptual. Then we have the opposite, got a mystical experience into the true nature of reality....but refuse to accept it. Both are sincere denial of truth, no different than a woman who refuses to accept the fact that her son is a serial killer. All the evidence is there but she refuses to admit that her "precious boy" could have done it. This is why you hear me say people are liars and full of shit. 

    Because one never verified and claims he knows, the other verified but refuses to accept. LOL They are like mirror images of each other.

    Today: Absolute Solipsism having "Finally a worthy opponent lol." . Like in "there are no others", but somehow Absolute Solipsism found a worthy opponent. Can somebody please explain this oxymoron to me? Or do I have to stick to my old musings below?

    Razard, with Moksha you  have on the relative level a really worthy opponent and sparringspartner. Funny thing is:  Moksha is not what you think Moskha is. There is just Infinite Reality doing its thing. Like in "you", minus the illusion....

    And one of the reasons for the manifestation of this show/Lila is: The biggest joke ever.

    Selling Water by the River

  2. Posted

    9 minutes ago, Moksha said:

     When realization goes deep, even beyond the soul, there is only pure awareness. The witness and the witnessed conflate into the absolute reality beyond both.

    Yes, fully agree. I just wrote about the soul (reluctantly, and highlighting its relative and illusion level), because its quite easy to ignore Karma and cause-effect when flying high on "its all imagined".

    Water by the River

  3. Posted

    14 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    You say Emptiness and Absolute are 2 sides of the same coin. Correct me if I am wrong, in that post you implicitly mean that the bias of the Vedanta towards Absolute notion has to do with the meditation technique they use (Non-dual awareness) vs Buddhist using more analytical meditation (Vipassana); rather than ones being more "spiritual advanced" that the other. Did I understand correctly?

    Dear RedLine,

    valid questions, but answering them in detail would cause another waaay to long rambling from my side. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts. Please feel invited to check them out, and if you don't find something useful for your questions, feel free to send me a PM.

    Short answer is: Both Vedanta and Buddhist meditation system know and use Nondual states. The trick is how to get there. Latest when getting nondual states (and probably already before when you really start to get the emptiness nature of every thought arising, and can start to dissolve your own suffering-self-contraction-arisings), you will be hellbent to continue the path. Also, the paths starts showing itself to itself then. It goes "downhill" from there, not uphill. Because you have seen the benefits of the path there (bliss starts flowing).

    One could say that Vedanta and Theravada tend quite strongly towards concentrative methods, same as the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali for example and Zen. But not exclusively. See Daniel Browns dissertation for example.

    The Mahamudra system has got some real unique techniques of combining concentrative and insight elements to learn to be able to ride along the mental talk of the mindstream in a lucid/mindful way.

    • That way, you can use daily life very efficient to get the necessary momentum for for example nondual states and getting to impersonal Awakened Awareness.
    • I can only highly recommend Daniel Browns Pointing Out the Great Way on that topic.

    And by the way, one can't say Buddhist practice style, there many systems in Buddhism. Theravada is very different from for example Tibetan Mahamudra.

    My personal opinion is that the Mahamudra-Sytem (for example in the book of Brown) is orders of magnitude more efficient than most other systems I know.

    Selling Water by the River

  4. Posted

    2 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

    They're very serious life altering events, people including quite experienced meditators pay thousands of dollars for the ceremonies to induce it.

    Nobody would waste their time or money with that crap (and also take the physical risks involved) if they could go through the same sort of mystical awakening by watching some videos.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe

    "Awe is an emotion comparable to wonder[1] but less joyous. On Robert Plutchik's wheel of emotions[2] awe is modeled as a combination of surprise and fear.

    One dictionary definition is "an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is grand, sublime, extremely powerful, or the like: in awe of God; 

    "

    And in the german wikipedia, it defines it even better:

    "Ehrfurcht ist ein hochsprachliches Wort für eine mit Verehrung einhergehende Furcht. Sie bezieht sich immer auf einen übermächtigen (erhabenen) Adressaten, ob real oder fiktiv. Sie kann individuell oder allgemein üblich sein. Sie empfinden zu können, wird zumeist als Tugend angesehen. „Ehrfurcht“ ist stärker als „Scheu“ oder „Achtung“, schwächer als „Unterwerfung“ oder „Anbetung“. Im Brockhaus von 1896 wird die Ehrfurcht als „der höchste Grad der Ehrerbietung, das Gefühl der Hingabe an dasjenige, was man höher schätzt als sich selbst, sei es eine Person oder eine geistige Macht, wie Vaterland, Wissenschaft, Kirche, Staat, Menschheit, Gottheit“ beschrieben"

    "Awe is a fear that goes along veneration. Awe always relates to something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee, real or fictive. .... . In the Brockhaus dictionary of 1896 awe is described as "the highest degree of veneration, the feeling of submission to that which one values higher as ones own self, be it a person or a  mental/spiritual power, like motherland, science, church, state, humanity or Divinity".

    Hope my translation is not completely off... :)

    Sure, later Reality/God/Divinity/Nothingness is experiences as ones own True Essence. But if one hasn't felt awe on the way there, I would take that as a big indicator that there is more juicy stuff to experience. ;)

    Daniel Brown said that the genuine reaction to a glimpse of the Dharmakaya is awe. An awe that humbles the separate self to its knees. Because THAT is way overpowering, like "something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee" of the definition of awe above.

    Selling Water by the River

  5. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    And the dream doesn't stop. Even after waking up, the dream/show continues.

    • And if one goes Wake Up, Grow up, Clean Up, Show Up, one can have a happy lucid dream.
    • And if one spiritual-bypasses, one can have a nightmare. And then it is more challenging staying lucid in.

    Also, controversial topic, but here is my take:

    • The separate self is an illusion, but appears.
    • And same with the soul. It is an illusion, but appears. So it has "relative" reality as illusion, just like the separate-self.
      • It takes the aspects of wisdom/transcendence and love/compassion of a being/perspective from life to life. At least according to Tibetan Buddhism, at least these two aspects are the soul that don't die with death.
      • The bundle of karmic imprints that goes from one life to the next. It is also just an illusion, but appears. 

    Do you think any being that has woken up would cut off his hand just for fun? Do "dumb" things that make life not a celebration, but "hey, today I feel like cutting off my hand just to see the drama of it". Because it is just an illusion? Yeah, very smart.... O.o , and for sure that what the Kosmos wants....

    And same with the illusion of the soul and Karma.

    This whole universe is growing to more complexity, and humanity is also not going in a circle stone age - industrial age - all gets blown up - stone age - ... - n+1 for the 100s time. No, it goes directly, and fast, from bacteria-plant-animal-human-awakening of some- awakening of more - .... Ken Wilber calls that drive of the Kosmos Eros, or growth to higher integration and complexity.

    And then maybe an upload of the whole hive-mind to subtle realities (Andrew Gallimore, "Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game"). That would perfectly explain the Fermi-Paradoxon. But hey, I am rambling on. Luckily, my other posts are rather short.... :P

    Ken Wilber also said: When you have seen, and don't tell, your soul gets very very sick.

    So, woken up or not, want a celebration or a night-mare? Yours truly just loved the effects of not cutting off his hand for fun so far.... ;)

    Selling Water by the River

     

    Although my view is higher than the sky,

    My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour.

    – Padmasambhava 

     

     

  6. Posted

    12 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    Not sure if you mean here that Leo God Realization is stage 3 (Wilber Causal) or stage 4 (Wilber Non-Dual). How do you explain 4 path buddhists denny so hard that notions Leo handles, and choose more "materialistc" or "mundane" lingo to describe experience and reality?. Is it because they are in Stage 4 and Leo in Stage 3? 

    For Leos Awakenings or Realizations, please ask himself. 

    My personal opinion and perspective (and nothing more than that) on concepts like Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is stated here:

    And my recommendation would be, similiar to something like Bassui said: Not too much theory. After reading the "letter", throw it in the fire, and practice.

     

    13 minutes ago, RedLine said:

    Also, why do buddhists reject the God/Absolute concept and Vedanta use it? Are they in differente stages of transpersonal develpment? 

    Please see here:

    Selling Water by the River

  7. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    52 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

    What do you all think?

    If you are completely AWAKE, do you even bother to join discussions on a forum? Do you even care to talk about Spirituality? Because Spirituality is the path not the TRUTH.

    I don't know what to say, think or assume about that.

    I'll contemplate.

    Ken Wilber, One Taste:

    "Monday, March 24. With the awakening of constant consciousness, you becomesomething of a divine schizophrenic, in the popular sense of “split-minded,” because you have access to both the Witnessand the ego. You are actually “whole-minded,” but it sounds like it’s split, because you are aware of the constant Witness or Spirit in you, and you are also perfectly aware of themovie of life, the ego and all its ups and downs. So you still feel pain and suffering and sorrow, but they can no longer convince you of their importance—you are no longer the victim of life, but its Witness.

    In fact, because you are no longer afraid of your feelings,you can engage them with much greater intensity. The movie of life becomes more vivid and vibrant, precisely because you are no longer grasping or avoiding it, and thus no longer trying to dull or dilute it. You no longer turn the volume down. You might even cry harder, laugh louder, jump higher. Choiceless awareness doesn’t mean you cease to feel; it means you feel fully, feel deeply, feel to infinity itself, and laugh and cry and love until it hurts. Life jumps right off the screen, and you are one with all of it, because you don’t recoil.

    If you are having a dream, and you think it’s real, it can get very scary. Say you are dreaming that you are tightropewalking across Niagara Falls. If you fall off, you plunge to your death. So you are walking very slowly, very carefully.Then suppose you start lucid dreaming, and you realize that it’s just a dream. What do you do? Become more cautious and careful? No, you start jumping up and down on the tightrope, you do flips, you bounce around, you have a ball—precisely because you know it isn’t real. When you realize it’s a dream, you can afford to play.

    The same thing happens when you realize that ordinary life is just a dream, just a movie, just a play. You don’t become more cautious, more timid, more reserved. You start jumping up and down and doing flips, precisely because it’sall a dream, it’s all pure Emptiness. You don’t feel less, you feel more—because you can afford to. You are no longer afraid of dying, and therefore you are not afraid of living.You become radical and wild, intense and vivid, shocking and silly. You let it all come pouring through, because it’s all your dream.

    Life then assumes its true intensity, its vivid luminosity, itsradical effervescence. Pain is more painful and happiness is happier; joy is more joyous and sorrow is even sadder. It all comes radiantly alive to the mirror-mind, the mind that doesn’t grasp or avoid, but simply witnesses the play, and therefore can afford to play, even as it watches.

    What would motivate you if you saw everything as the dream of your own highest Self? What would actually move you in this playful dream world? Everything in the dream is basically fun, at some deep level, except for this: when you see your friends suffering because they think the dream is real, you want to relieve their suffering, you want them to wake up, too. Watching them suffer is not fun. And so a deep and powerful compassion arises in the heart of the awakened ones, and they seek, above all else, to awaken others—and thus relieve them from the sorrow and the pity,the torment and the pain, the terror and the anguish that comes from taking with dreadful seriousness the passing dream of life.

    So you are a divine schizophrenic, you are “split-minded” in the sense that you are simultaneously in touch with both the pure Witness and the world of the ego-film. But that really means you are actually “whole-minded,” because these two worlds are really not-two. The ego is just the dream of the Witness, the film that the Witness creates out of its own infinite plenitude, simply so it will have something to watch at the movies.

    At that point the entire play arises within your own constant consciousness. There is no inside and no outside, no in here versus out there. The nondual universe of One Taste arises as a spontaneous gesture of your own true nature. You can taste the sun and swallow the moon, and centuries fit in the palm of your hand. The pure I-I, the greatI AMness, breathes to infinity and creates a Kosmos as the Song of its very Self, and oceans of compassion fall as tears from your very own Original Face.

    Last night I saw the reflection of the moon in a cool clear crystal pond, and nothing else happened."

     

    Selling Water by the River

  8. Posted

    52 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

    The idea of having to be without attachment/craving won’t even exist when you’re awake to such a high degree. You’ll understand everything; that idea will hold absolutely no weight.

    I mean the ripening phase of for example Yoga of One Taste nor Nonmeditation-Yoga with resting in Ones True Being. It is not fully clear at that phase. After crossing over/waking up/Basis Enlightenment it is.

    I didn't write clearly in this paragraph you quoted.

    The speciality of Mahamudra in general, and Yoga of One Taste and Yoga of Nonmeditation especially, is pointing out as much as possible from ones True Nature at each stage, and bringing forth the benefit of resting/training in these states. And going from meditation state induction to realization/understanding to further meditation state experience to realization, and so on. Like in a upwards-going spiral.

    Selling Water by the River

  9. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    1. Just to make sure. Nondual Realization/Enlightenment you mention is the same as "living withouth an ego", the 4 path, the moment to moment experience that Angelo Dullio, Frank Yank, Daniel Ingram, etc have and use to describe rigth?

    Yes. Don't know Angelo Dulio (but Ingram and Yangs descriptions). Full Enlightenment has the same deep structure always. Only one Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind. Without a second. But the way & style being talked about it later varies from perspective to perspective.

    And to be more precise: The ego (as technical term) or character continues doing its thing. The separate-self-arisings/elements gets understood/seen in real time (and in all its aspect) as illusions moving in oneself, and are transcended and normally cut off (Trekchö) as Illusion. Unnecessary. Awakaned Awareness takes over, and lives ones life much more efficient than the old biased separate-self ever could. Waaay more pleasant. "One" just gets out of the way.

    • Like a lense of perception, normally with some kind of location/center, with I-feelings and I-thoughts.
    • That drops.
    • What remains is an Understanding/Realization of
      • that which can never not be there, Reality itself.
      • That is Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all appearance, including the visual field, is that.
      • That Nothingness is infinite, since any boundary to anything else would be form, an imagined arising.
      • and while there are Infinite Perspectives in Indras Net, non-dimensionally "hovering" or being manifested/imagined in Nothingness (out of which you normally forget all but "your" perspective (and call that your life), the Awareness of all of these perspectives can ever only be that Infinite Nothingness, which is also the essence/Suchness of every appearance.
      • Deep Structures of the process towards Enlightenment. To get there, you need at least the following Awakenings (discrete "hard" STATES, induced by meditation, psychedelic, karma, ..., that one can not jump with just conceptual thinking/videos/whatever. That ends with one form of Solipsism or another, a cul-de-sac)
        • the ego-mind becoming a fully transparent witness (Mahamudra. Yoga 1 & 2): Death/Transcendence of the ego/person. Outcome Transparent Witness. Not yet death/Transcendence of the Indviduality/last subtle separate selves.
        • Nonduality with the visual field (Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3). Induced and boosted by the step above.
        • the visual field becoming boundless/infinite (further ripening of One Taste Yoga): Infinite
        • the Awakening that Consciousness is Nothingness, nothing that can ever be pointed to, and the Awakening that each and every appearance of the visual field IS Nothingness, its essence is Nothingness (further ripening of One Taste Yoga). Generalizing this awakening/understanding to any possible manifestation.
        • the Awakening to this boundless infinite visual field/Consciousness being also timeless, eternal, never-not-here. Deathless alway-here-Mind.
        • the "you" becoming nothing at all, no center, no lense, no feeling, no thought. Or all of that moving through you like the wind: Mahamudra, Yoga of Nonmeditation, stage 4.
          • The visual field remains, but without you. Impersonal. That is a ripening process of Impersonality (similiar to the ripening of Nonduality in the Yoga of One Taste), which
          • ends suddenly with waking up, or Full Enlightenment, crossing over to the Dharmakaya or whatever lingo floats ones boat.
          • That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. 
            • That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be different, nowhere and in no dimension/time/anything. Can't be.
    •  That was a longer musing than I expected. These are the Deep Structures of the process of Enlightenment. that I have found in ANY Enlightenment-Path-Description. (like in: a few hundreds of books later. You know, nutcase...). 
    • You can have that and do that with cessations and a concentrative meditation path, or Dzogchen/Mahamudra. One doesn't need cessations, as Ingram and Yang confirm. Both (and also Wilber) changed later to include Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements. That gave at least yours truly something to think about. Good book for Mahamudra: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. Many posts of yours truly on that also...

    And one little warning: Without the corresponding Awakening states, one will

    • a) not understand (or get) Nonduality or Union with the (infinite) visual field by just conceptual description (for example of the one of yours truly above). No chance. But you can recognize when that starts to happen when you know the map of the path. You can know how to induce that with practice, and how to make out of a spark a forest fire
    • b) not understand the full Impersonal nature of ones true being (Nothingness), the death and transcendence of the separate self. That is impossible before it fully happens. But one can get at least an idea when the ripening of that happens. When it fully happens, its clear. Unmistakenably so. Waking Up.

    So the "game"/path is to induce these states, via for example the practices described above. And then there is a cycle of meditation state->realization/understanding->boosting more meditation state (because it got more impersonal) -> more realization/understanding n+1.

    "Thinking" ones way to Oneness/God/ItsallIMAGINED and itSAULGOODMAN doesn't work, only leads to Ego/Separate-Self-Solipsism.

     

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    2. I don´g get how can be form and this form not be formed by craving. Doesn´t it cotradict the 5 agreggates frame? it is hard for me to understand how nirodha samapatti can´t be ontologhical superior than nirvana. 

    The 5 aggregate frame is from the earliest phases of Buddhism. Buddhism tended to end at (and emphasize) causal states back in the day (like Nirvana/Cessation/Nothingness as state). That mostly got replaced (transcended and in included) with superior realizations later, Nondual in Ken Wilbers language (Nagarjuna,  Madhyamaka). That basically means not loosing ones Identity as Nothingness being the whole Infinite Field (and the essence of that being Nothingness, not metaphorically but literally, as direct experience) as Nothingness. A nice statement from that stage is: - We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.- Kalu Rinpoche. That is a statement one doesn't normally here from the early Buddhism phases.

    1 hour ago, RedLine said:

    My current undestanding is that if those enlighten people are still alive and not went into mahasamadi is becuase they still hold some little craving for forms related to surviving.

    Yours truly would recommend forgetting the concept of Mahasamadhi. Cultural Baggage. Why should that happen? So much effort for the whole imagined/manifested show, and then its game over when one understand what one is? Doesn't happen in practice, and why should it? For the first time, one can play and celebrate manifestation without the fear and lack and cycle of suffering. That is the True Nondual Realization.

    • It is not the scarcity and quite negative perspective of escaping suffering and reaching Nirvana that early Buddhism/Hinayana had.
    • It is the full celebration of manifestation, full with Agape, and if done in an integral way and with intelligence just a beautiful dream.
    • See Francis Lucille for example. He calls it life is a celebration then. It is. He has a very sane perspective on all of that. 

    And please feel invited to review my archieve of posts for more details because yours truly is God, marvels all day at his own perfection, of course has madly fallen in LOVE with himself, and nobody else is awake, you are all dreaming, and only God can describe himself in the best way of all Multiverses possible since there are no others, and everbody else is wrong because or biased and so on and so on (put in the Solipsistic Ramblings of your preference n+1), and its all imagined anyway!!! ;):$ Sorry, just kidding of course. If you like that channel, just ask and you will helped by various proponents of Absolute Solipsism and other funny concepts ;)

    Selling Water by the River

    PS: Very necessary, after all this conceptual overkill of yours truly:

    • Bassui: After having read the letter, drop it into the fire
    • Much more true than all the stuff written above: “frog pond plop” Basho

  10. Posted

    8 hours ago, RedLine said:

    Oh yeah, all is imaginary, oops but the idea of "all this imaginary" is imanginary too, ooooo but the idea of " the idea of "all this imaginary"" is also imaginary.

    That exactly how it is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

    Ken Wilbers take on that is that it takes stage yellow cognition (integral thinking, Vision logic, Piaget post-formal cognition/logic) to fully get that, and to spot when one does it. And stop doing it.

    Stage green cognition (relative thinking, not yet post-formal cognition) tends to have a hard time with that.

    But has the potential to make a great show ;)

    Selling Water by the River

     

    PS: And even Emptiness is empty. Best is to be in the right nondual enlightened fully empty state and say “frog pond plop” (Batso). Not like the way of the way too loooong ramblings of yours truly :)

  11. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    9 hours ago, RedLine said:

    When all the the ego attachments (five aggregates) are deconstructed, what is left is not infinite and unconditional bliss and goodness but Nothing, no experience, oblivion.

    I challenge you to convice me that the God/Atman/Infinite love, etc as essence of reality makes any sense. This experience is also an ego attachment, still craving, and therefore can be deconsctructed too. 

     

     

    Some musings on Nothing/Causal-States of Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, their benefits, vs. Nondual Realization/Enlightenment in daily life:

    A state of Nothing (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha,...) is not the Absolute, it is a state happening in Nothingness/ Absolute/ Infinite/ Reality. Absolute Reality by definition is always there, never not there, can't go anywhere else (since IT is infinite).

    Nondual Realization/Enlightenment: And if one can keep ones True Identity as Nothingness BEING the essence of Everything (the visual field, and the Infinite Nothingness in which it "floats") going in daily life (as , and see "IT" as the Essence/Nothingness/Suchness of every arising of the Visual Field/Infinite Consciousness), then you will have the  infinite and unconditional bliss/love flowing. That comes with the package. Or what would in the end finally switch off the separate self and its grasping for blissful-experiences finally, it not bliss without condition/cause?  "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". Kalu Rinpoche

    • Historically, Buddhism tended to first master (Hinayana, today the surviving Theravada-forms) the Concentrative-Meditation Nothing-states (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana), until later guys like Nagarjuna reached and described the ongoing nondual Realization of Nothingness as the ESSENCE not only of (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana), but of the world/visual field/any manifestation. Madhyamaka came out of that, and the Nondual revolution of Mahayana.
    • It is easier to get these Nothing-states via Hardcore-Concentrative-Meditation than ongoing Nondual Realization in daily life. Because for that, all separate self arisings must be transcended WHILE they arise in daily. For (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha, Nirvana) it is enough to switch them off via concentrative meditation on the pillow. So a more brute-force-concentrative approach.
      • Many Theravada-Paths aim for Cessation. The material from Ingram and Frank Yang clearly describe that when the "cycling" through states of Cessation starts, that this is useful to understand the separate self when it reassembles going out of Cessation. But both later added some techniques similiar to Mahamudra/Dzogchen because that makes it much more efficient.
        • Both state that cessation and its path is optional, not necessary. There are cases who don't go through cessations. But these tend to take Awareness into the Sleep-State (lucid dream, or not fully blanking out when passing deep sleep. See Roger Thisdells descriptions of that for example).
      • Mahamudra/Dzogchen directly aims for Nondual Realization in daily life, but also use concentration states on the pillow. But not exclusively, and more as a starting point.
        • They have excellent techniques to make the everpresent Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness in daily life perceivable and "hold-able", and to transcend the separate-self-clouds blocking the realization that Nothingness/Reality always already is right here, right now.

    Buuut the big advantage of Nothing (Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha,...) : You see what can be gone (all and everything) and the Absolute/Infinite is still "there", as in Reality/Absolute Reality never can not be there.

    • So one doesn't tend to confuse the Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Potential with any kind of specific form, or perceiver/subject/separate self.
    • IT makes sure that after a lot of experiences of going in and especially coming out of that state of Cessation/Nothing (and the subject/separate self/indviduality, together with the world, reassembles itself), is that one doesn't confuse Ones True Essence (Nothingness) with any form, howerever subtle or formless.
      • Yes, and there are also formless states that are still form or manifestation (not the Nothing/Cessation, since they change AND have some subtle form. Something like a formless object like i, the square root of minus 1. Ever seen it? Ever can imagine it? Yes, as formless concept. Or in Wilbers System, low subtle/high subtle and low causal.
        • High Causal in Wilbers System is the Abyss, Nothingness, Cessation.
        • Beyond, the True Nondual opens up in daily life: Once the separate self is fully killed/transcended touching the Nothing/Nothingness/Cessation, one becomes empty enough to sustain the infinite mere appearance nondual states in daily life without any clouding/separate self/individuality covering/clouding or disfiguring IT.
      • And the subtle essence of individuality/separate self is still a subtle formless arising/feeling/lense of perception.
        • And if one hasn't fully seen through that/transcended it /sees it moving within oneself fully&fast enough, one can not see/perceive that Nothingness is the essence of everything. The visual field really "changes heart", appearances "hovering" in Infinite Nothingness, their essence Nothingness itself.

     

    3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

    God has nothing to do with attachment or craving. This is just Buddhist dogma.

    Yes to all of that. But it helps being without attachment/craving to rest in ones True Being, however one wants to call it, God or Nothingness or Infinite Reality, Universal Mind, whatever.

    3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

    The truth is that God is imagining attachment and craving as figments of its consciousness. God is also imagining Nirodha Samapatti, and every other Buddhist thing. Buddhism is a dream. God is not.

    And more in my language/use of terms, God/Infinite Reality/Nothingness is indeed manifesting/imagining attachment and craving within itself. 

    God/Infinite Reality/Nothingness can manifest/imagine Nirodha Samapatti, Cessation, Nirvikalpha in one of its Infinite Perspectives. Or better: switch every other imagination/manifestation just off. Making for this being/human/perspective more clear what is always there, and how the separate self re-assembles when going "out" of Nothingness/Cessation and form and subject of the object arises again.

    And of course Buddhism is a dream. Like everything else, and any other teaching. By definition.

    • But a good/efficient dream if well done, using the right teachings from it (out of a sea of stuff that apparently doesn't work, since 99%+ of Buddhists are not enlightened), can get one to realize ones true essence.
    • Unefficient dreams/teachings don't. Like a map with the drawing/description of the mountain, but no path drawn on it to get up to the peak. 

    "Buddhism is a dream. God is not." Of course. Infinite Reality/Absolute/God/Universal Mind is always there, never can not be there. IT is dreaming the dream in itself, but IT not a dream.

    Selling Water by the River

    PS: If you are bored to death by all these concepts of yours truly, get a good laugh and look up Bazooka Jesus last Fanclub-video-post. ;)

  13. Posted

     

    Free will or determinism: It is one of the paradoxes that can not be solved on the level of separate self, only in Enlightenment. Then it is no longer paradoxical.

    • When not understanding and still believing the illusion of a separate self, zero freedom.
    • When realizing what one really is, Universal Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness: Total freedom. There is no other game in town.... But there won't be a "you" left that is separate from the Totality.

    Practically speaking: Investing time in this question while not knowing what one really is is pointless. It is absolutely pointless. It is a question based on a wrong assumption: That the separate self exists as more than just an illusion. The rope mistaken for a snake. Better investing time in finding out what one really is.

    Selling Water by the River

  15. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    Man, The thing is not whether I avoid the truth or not, it's just that I'm not sure that you are integral. reading your messages a great need to stand out is perceived, not a great need of help the people to awake.

    Just my opinion. the smell of fake is too intense. I could be wrong, but there is something that is not clean in your behavior. Yes, now you will respond with an attack, that I am not awake or whatever, as always when someone questions you. On the other hand, if they agree with you, you only have good words for them. Don't you see a giant ego everywhere?

     

    3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    Yeah, he just has compared himself to Christ and launched into a tirade about him and his glory. could be worse i guess. 

    Well, this "I-Am-God" show serves at least as a very practical example for everyone seeing/reading it to where that path leads. .

    • Which emotions and peace/bliss/compassion/gentleness (or more of the opposite of these states) it brings for the main actor. What that path delivers.
    • And how its structure works, whats driving the main actor. What the main actor actually needs and partially gets from the gig. And for how long.
    • And most amazing of all: Why that path, while proclaiming there are no others, needs others very much. That others are its  "raison d'etre". Saving "others", helping "others", teaching "others", getting "others" to awaken, and so on and so on. 
      • Not Selling Water at the River (with a smile for doing so aware of the paradoxical nature of the whole gig, and letting the show run on autopilot), but very actively "Selling Water in the Desert" and promoting it for the poor, lost, dying, helpless and thirsting "others".
        • Luckily, one doesn't need sophisticated transpersonal psychology or the like to read that phenomena. The phenomena of boosting ones ego/separate self doing this gig is so common that it has been well researched, structured and defined. 
          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex
            • "A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct.[1] Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society, and may request special consideration or privileges.[1]"
            • God complex is not a clinical term nor diagnosable disorder and does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The recognized diagnostic name for the behaviors associated with a god complex is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). A god complex may also be associated with mania or a superiority complex.
          • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_complex
            • However, the symptoms as a proposed disorder closely resemble those found in individuals with delusions of grandeur or with grandiose self-images that veer towards the delusional.[4] An account specifically identified it as a category of religious delusion, which pertains to strong fixed beliefs that cause distress or disability. It is the type of religious delusion that is classified as grandiose while the other two categories are: persecutory and belittlement

            • In terms of the attitude wherein an individual sees themselves as having to save another or a group of poor people, there is the notion that the action inflates their own sense of importance and discounts the skills and abilities of the people they are helping to improve their own lives.[7]

          • As you write, even comparisons with Jesus are performed without even any trace of self-irony. So nothing new under the sun....

    The merciful thing is: If the show would be done really smart, cool and in style, the fallout and damage done to those listening could be much bigger.

    Somebody would/will do the "I-Am-God" show anyways, so its probably better that not the Einsteins of this world are doing it. 

    Although I know at least one very smart cookie having having delivered a great performance of that kind of show, with even lots of useful stuff included :);) . And the copycats have apparently been quite impressed & inspired about it. The smart cookie still has lots of potential, smartness and knows the concepts of self-reflection, bias and openness very well. So its quite likely at some point we could and probably will see even the copy-cats wising up following the lead & some new innovations of the smart cookie.. 

    So, Bon Voyage to every-"one", and enjoy the show! 

    Selling Water by the River

    PS: Bassui: After reading this letter/post, throw it in the fire.

  16. Posted

    8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    Thanks for sharing, i listened a bit but difficult for me to understand spoken, but I looked for the guy on google and I read some of his stuff and I found it very interesting

    I had to watch the videos from Roger Thisdell several times to get his style of definitions and explaining. Like with most deep stuff that is really good. It is nice to understand several different systems/approaches/path descriptions, makes a more integral approach. I like to see who explained which stages/topics best, and integrate that.

    I had to read for example Pointing Out the Great Way (at least the important chapters) I guess over 10 times over a period of 10 years+. Every cycle doing that, with more meditation experience, I understood more.

    One can not do a deep dive on everything, that is why a certain intuition of what is really good/deep/wise/true can be really helpful.

    Selling Water by the River

  17. Posted

    7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

    One or absolute solipsism are conceptual creations of the mind. this means that they are created by contrasting some things with others, which means that they are relative. the truth cannot be articulated with the mind and those who do are confusing the map with the territory

    So true.

    A good path can drop one at the doopstep of the Absolute. But there, all concepts fail, all duality must come to an an end, and the last separate self subjectivity/individuality must be seen moving in oneself/transcended and cut off/dropped/died. 

    Only then will ones True Being reveal itself.

    That is the essence of Mahamudra Nonmeditation Yoga for example.

    And one throws the stick into the fire when one is there, not before.

    So good concepts (the stick one later throws into the fire) get one to the doorstep of the Absolute, and for that one must already by very very empty. Neti Neti.

    A concept like Solipsism is not at all useful for doing that, despite certain partial truths hold valid ONCE having realized the Absolute. But then one doesn't need to talk about. Because there are no others...

    • And one doesn't want to blow up the separate-self-image/narcicissm of "other" perspective that still have the Illusion-separate-self-ego well and alive appearing in their mindstreams with concepts like Solipsism, which just are not true on the level of a ego/separate self still well and alive.
    • Solipsism is a path that leads nowhere, promises things it can't hold, and leads in circles. While Maya lovingly smiles at oneself, enjoying the show, and tells one how much she loves one and how oh so great one is. 
    • Neti Neti delivers, and that is why each and every meditation system and spiritual traditions goes that road.
      • Not one system goes the conceptual Solipsism road. Either all that came before must have been iditos (Remember Ken Wilbers: Nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time), or there is a deep deep truth to the Neti Neti approach, since Humanity has used it ever since.

    And if one wants to go a certain part of the Solipsism road on ones path, how about doing it with style:

    We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

    Selling Water by the River

  21. Posted

    7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

    'Nothing", in the sense that the energy that desires and fear is identified and can be deactivated at will, but the experience continues to occur, so there is still "something" and it seems always will be. in my experience, what is perceived when turning off that energy, which is really the separate self, is that the experience completely changes frequency. It changes from linear dimension, a story that takes place, to acquire a dimension in depth, a kind of bottomless tube where images appear. The meaning of those images changes completely if they are interpreted in relation to the energy That wants and fear or not. understanding becomes possible, but it is extremely difficult to maintain the perspective without self, since the mind begins to interpret and that makes the linear perspective return. I get the perspective without self about 2 or 3 times a day, every time it happens I laugh out loud, it is absolutely liberating and mysterious. but given our conditioning, extremely difficult to maintain. More than some minutes is very difficult. I find it hard to believe those who claim to be fully awake. I think they are still in the linear perspective but modified, 90% they are deceived imo, but who knows

    Did you already watch Roger Thisdells Videos 4 and 5? If possible and time permits also video 3. I think you will like them.

    Speaking with the words of Nisargadatta: You have won the grace of your True Nature. Just follow the grace...

    "but the experience continues to occur, so there is still "something" and it seems always will be": Sure, the visual field and the character will continue doing their thing.

    Water by the River

  23. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    I-am-100-2.jpg

     

    So, lets go through it.

    Number of Pictures

    1  5  9

    2  6  10

    3  7  11

    4  8  12

    1: Identity with THAT (That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1).

    Roger Thisdell stage 1: 

     

    2: Wiping/Process of Transcending the Identity with any self-concept  (Body-Mind. Ego. World. God. Whatever. n+1)

    3: I AM (identity with being, but nothing specific anymore. "Opaque" witness, not fully empty)

    Roger Thisdell Stage 2

    4: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the BEING anything at all

    5: There is still some Identity: I. But nothing specific at all, pretty empty. A pretty empty "Transparent" Witness. Can be quite nondual (One Mind/the whole visual field. One (but a not empty one), united with the nondual visual field. Many Psychedelic Experiences throw one here. Nondual, but not fully empty, Sense of transparent/pretty empty Self/Witness still well and alive. Roger Thisdell stage 3.

    6: Wiping/Transcending/Killing the transparent Witness

    7: One is No-Self. Nothing. Buuut: Identity with No-Self/Nothing, the perceiving or understanding of being Nothing. Still one arising/subtle identity/concept too much. A Portal to the Absolute. Awareness OF Emptiness. Awareness OF Being. Any Awarness OF is still not fully nondual. Even if Awareness OF Emptiness/Being/Infinite/whatever n+1 .  Psychedelics can bring one here, if "one" gets already quite empty, but Individuality (very subtle/murky here) is still there. Roger Thisdells Stage 4: 

     

    8/9/10/11: Understanding and letting go even this last self-referential concept/thought/identity

    12: Nothing. Pure Suchness. Infinite Consciousness so empty that there is not even a Watcher/Awarerer/Identity with No-Self. Final Enlightenment. Ultimate Reality itself.

    • Only then, daily life is nondual, infinite, enlightened. And the bliss of ones True Being, NOTHINGNESS, flows freely.
    • Really no separate self/individuality left.
    • Only then one is really the whole Enchilada without any filters/lenses/localization of any separate self/individuality. The character keeps continuing doing its thing in ones True Self, Reality itself.
    • The price of that: Any self-reflective awareness of being anything (separate) at all is transcended, and can be seen happening within oneself. Understood, and no longer believed, mostly just cut off (that Illusion again). And that is not even being the "No-Self Self" of Thisdells stage 4, or picture 7.
    • To be fully everything in daily life (fully nondual) without any separation, one needs to be fully nothing at all. Totally empty. Any separate self, however subtle, fully gone. And the last remnants of Individuality or separate self can be very very subtle. Only that gets the permanent bliss and love flowing that has got its home in the Nondual True Self.

    "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche"

    Roger Thisdell Stage 5

     

    And by the way, any just conceptual identity with anything (The THAT of I am THAT),

    • That=anything, any CONCEPT. Body-Mind. Ego. World. Whatever. n+1), even with God/Reality/whatever, is picture 1 of the path in daily life. I AM THAT (That=God/Reality/whatever).
    • Because it is normally not a nondual awakened state in daily life, but just some ideas taken away from a trip that got one to Nonduality. A hang-over of the trip, while being currently not at all in an awakened or nondual state.
      • And hopefully it is at least this (a hang-over from a trip), and not just some pure conceptual trip without any change in states towards at least a bit awakening, and not just a pure head-trip.

    And actually a much worser starting place, because the lovely concept of being God blows up ones sense of self (THAT) tremendously. Neti Neti didn't get easier with making THAT bigger than it was before....

    Pour encourager les autres.... Sorry :$;)

    Selling Water by the River

  25. Posted · Edited by Water by the River

    16 hours ago, Razard86 said:

    To put this in perspective....I SKIPPED the NO SELF awakening..

    ... and if one skipps flunks No-Self Awakening, and directly thinks one has become/realized God/Awareness/whatever, every reader can choose for himself if the outcome is

    a) something like a minor or major https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex

    or 

    b) Realized & enlightened & pretty happy, full of compassion and patience, and bissfully ever after SHARING DA LOVE!!!!  ;). Sorry. :$

    But giving a clear example of that is also beneficial. Not for the victim of that little pre-trans-Fallacy (in Ken Wilbers definition, https://integrallife.com/pre-trans-fallacy/), but for the viewers...

    Anyways, and as always: Bon Voyage on our lovely little trips back home (either of the more or less winded categories), to a home we never really left. Enjoy the ride! :)

    Water the River