Water by the River
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Posts posted by Water by the River
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10 hours ago, BlessedLion said:@Water by the River what is your take on enlightenment versus God realization? I’m curious. Realizing you are the ocean and wave surfing. How is God realization different from wave surfing ?
God Realization from what I have seen is just understanding more than the usual psychedelic Awakening (where one just projects an ego in nondual unity on the visual field or Nothingness or whatever). Like, how one imagines the past real time right now (which one does, and it doesn't exist anywhere else). And how one imagines everything else just to fool oneself (like parents, job, being a person,...).
The problem with God Realization is: There remains a subtle "realizer" of all of that. Very subtle, very hard to transcend, since this is just a totally empty "Individuality". That is the last hindrance to Enlightenment, which then is therefor also stable if that element is seen through. Wilber calls it Empty Witness (see for example Religion of the Future). But not fully transparent and fully boundless nondual without individuality.
And that is why God Realization is not stable sobre. These remaining separate-self elements kill the Awakened nondual states after the trip.
In Enlightenment, all of that is totally obvious, and since these components are in place, or rather there illusion-counter-components (like self-existing personality, space, time, outer world, duality/out-thereness) are seen through in real time. Below, the outcome first, and then which kind of illusion-part of the separte-self structure it shuts off.
- Awakened (impersonal, not personal, no empty witness or duality of any kind left),
- Nondual (boundless and infinite field/vastness, Unity, Oneness) and
- Groundless (mere appearance, really just mere appearance or hologram-like character of the world hovering in Infinite limitless Nothingness, that behind your body), no external world if it is not imagined.
- Eternal and timeless and absolutely fundamental, since its boundless and can't go anywhere else, it is more fundamental than time in mathematical language. And how one imagines past &future&"background-fairy-tale-of-the-separate-body-mind" real time right now. Just more appearances/modulations appearing in the Infinite vastness/Infinite Being.
- Infinite and spaceless (since space is literally imagined in it, and with that any 3-,4-, or n-dimensional space, be it euclidian, non-euclidian, or whatever of the infinity of possibilities)
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Blissfull and salvation, since the separate-self-contraction suffering/bad-feelings and thoughts can get cut off/transcended in real-time by just looking into their nature. They appear & literally "move" within True Infinite Being, as its "modulations".
- That cutting-off of the separate-self-arisings real time is what unlocks the states mentioned above, and their resulting insights/realizations. Basically cutting-off real time separate-self arisings done proficiently enough= creates awakened states (above) and same effects as psychedelics.
And all of these states and/or insights above one can happpen one at a time, or two, or three combined... Any combination possible, and that creates the myriad of half-baked and different Awakening & (smaller) Enlightenment-descriptions ("Kenshos in Zen"). Ever heard some people have new Awakenings all the time? That is that.
- For truly awakening to what one truly is, beyond any doubt, one needs all of them. When that Waking Up happens, it is definitive. Because it kills the former illusion of being a separate-anything. That can never be believed again. It is dead. It always ever was an illusion. Even the God-realized ego/separate-self. All a dream. There was never anything else than the Infinite Ocean of Being, formerly with ignorance and illusion arising within it, and now back to the real state of "things", the ignorance no longer arising.
Basically, one gets all facets of the Infinite Absolute True Being all at once, and once this happens Infinite Being is totally obvious. It is You. All of it. And can't get more Infinite than Infinite and more eternal than eternal, that is why it is final. The rest is just more appearance IN You (or consciousness OF x, man, woman, Alien, Alien n+1,...). Interesting for sure, but not so urgent. Got Eternity and Infinity to explore, remember?
And even if getting distracted by the Lila-show for a moment, "it" is "just there", by just reaching out and killing the illusion-aspect that got re-established by just looking into its nature and just finding the Infinite Ocean of Awareness-Being. Your True Self.
So in summary, God-Realization as used here, is a step in the right direction, but it is still not true Enlightenment. Of course, what is sold as Enlightenment is in 80%-90%+ cases not Enlightenment as waking up out of the dream, but just some nondual "Awakening". A dual dream has become a nondual dreaming. Dreaming nonetheless. What Leo calls (correctly) nondual BS. Zen differentiates between Enlightenments (Kenshos), and fully waking up (calling that Great Enlightenment). Only in the latter one there is waking up from the dream. With the former one, a nondual, or god-realized, or whatever ego/separate-self continues dreaming its nondual dream... Lovely place to be at, but still a dream
So God Realization is between the naive nondual-Enlightenments with a dreamer still well and alive dreaming nondual-unity-dream, and true waking-up Enlightenment is beyond God Realization, since even the "subtle" one having the God-Realization is seen through as more dreaming. And one can wake up only once, then any separate-anything illusion is ruined for good. That illusions never recovers its fully. And then, one can go still playing with the Aliens for ever new insights, if one is so inclined...
So it is tricky, because Leo basically has a Pre-Trans-Confusion in Wilbers lingo. Sorry Leo, but needs to be said.
- God-Realization is "higher" than a standard nondual-awakening (Nondual Unity Awakening of ego still believing its background story like parents, world, others). These are the Nonduality or Enlightenment-Fundamentalists he criticizes.
- but it is lower than True Enlightenment, since the final individuality/separate-self/God-realized-ego is not seen through. And once the psychedelic state delivering most of the items listed above wears off, this remaining not seen-through-in-real-time individuality/separte-self/ego kills the awakened state.
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and since it is all very subtle and impossible to fully understand without having had these awakened states, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to understand True Enlightenment from the perspective of God-Realization before it truly happens (else, one would be already fully enlightened when having seen through the last subtle elements of separation/individuality), Water by the River recommends the age-old recipe of Matthew 7:15-20 "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits".
And the proof for that is: Psychedelic Godrealization doesn't last. When the psychedlic wears off, the filters/lenses/contraction of the remaining separate self/ego kick back in, and bye bye awakened nondual states (the ones listed above). And even during "God-Realization", the remaining individual projects itself mightily on all these insights. And then we get Infinity of Gods and stuff not for the faint-of-hearted as compensation.
While there is only one Being/Reality, we now have an Infinity of "god-realized" egos. Basically, God-Realization never gets rid of the Individuality/Separation fully, there is always a subtle "someone" having all these realizations.
Selling "going all the way" by the River
PS: Roger Thisdells version of that.
vs.
Even the God-realized ones need to fully jump into the
mixerVoidPS PS:
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8 hours ago, BlessedLion said:This is the point though! The point is to wave surf!
Do you think God (You) is stupid and would just create the waves for something to be tireing? It’s imporant to know how the car functions (wheels/enlightenment) but take the fucking thing for a drive and explore the roads.
I think this is what Leo is saying he’s doing.
Yes, the point of the game/Lila is to wave-surf, while believing one is the wave.
Until one realizes that all that wave surfing doesn't bring the permanent bliss that ones True Being yearns for, but leads to exhaustion. Or burnout.
A variant of that is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism
Why is that? Only being what one really is releases the tension of the separate-self.
Normally that takes decades of gaining maturity, but it can also be shortcut with insight. If one (or ones Karma to be precise) resonates with that.
In the end, only dropping into the Infinite Ocean and dissolving in Infinite Being brings the final deliverance.
And paradoxically, the journey doesn't end here. It just starts. From caterpillar to butterfly. One can perfect ones chosen wave-surfing, but without the contraction and the suffering of being just a wave or a self-contraction, but being the Infinite Ocean itself.
Selling wave-surfing while being the Infinite Ocean
PS: Watched your youtube-channel a bit. You are truly a Blessed Lion!
"Wilber on ones chosen wave-surfing after having dissolved in the Infinite Ocean: Wilber, Eye of Spirit.
And It Is All Undone
Perhaps you will arise as any or all of those forms of ever-present awareness.
But then, it doesn’t really matter. When you rest in the brilliant clarity of
ever-present awareness, you are not Buddha or Bodhisattva, you are not this
or that, you are not here or there. When you rest in simple, ever-present
awareness, you are the great Unborn, free of all qualities whatsoever. Aware
of color, you are colorless. Aware of time, you are timeless. Aware of form,
you are formless. In the vast expanse of primordial Emptiness, you are
forever invisible to this world.
It is simply that, as embodied being, you also arise in the world of form
that is your own manifestation. And the intrinsic potentials of the enlightened
mind (the intrinsic potentials of your ever-present awareness)—such as
equanimity, discriminating wisdom, mirrorlike wisdom, ground
consciousness, and all-accomplishing awareness—various of these potentials
combine with the native dispositions and particular talents of your own
individual bodymind. And thus, when the separate self dies into the vast
expanse of its own ever-present awareness, you will arise animated by any or
all of those various enlightened potentials. You are then motivated, not by the
Great Search, but by the Great Compassion of these potentials, some of
which are gentle, some of which are truly wrathful, but all of which are
simply the possibilities of your own ever-present state.
And thus, resting in simple, clear, ever-present awareness, you will arise
with the qualities and virtues of your own highest potentials—perhaps
compassion, perhaps discriminating wisdom, perhaps cognitive insight,
perhaps healing presence, perhaps wrathful reminder, perhaps artistic
accomplishment, perhaps athletic skill, perhaps great educator, or perhaps
something utterly simple, maybe being the best flower gardener on the block.
(In other words, any of the developmental lines released into their own
primordial state, released into their own post-postconventional condition.)
When the bodymind is released from the brutalities inflicted by the selfcontraction,
it naturally gravitates to its own highest estate, manifested in the
great potentials of the enlightened mind, the great potentials of simple, everpresent
awareness.
Thus, as you rest in simple, ever-present awareness, you are the great
Unborn; but as you are born—as you arise from ever-present awareness—
you will manifest certain qualities, qualities inherent in intrinsic Spirit, and
qualities colored by the dispositions of your own bodymind and its particular
talents."Leo for example would for sure continue exploring the Multiverse. But without a burnout & exhaustion, and totally at peace, loving, compassionate and blissful. Totally happy in being only part-time Alien, and mostly part-time human, and perfectly happy with that. Because it is a unique place to be at. The Alien can not be part-time human and tell about that, at least not so easily as somebody with a more "full-time" denser human body. Lovely book on these topics, from a gentlemen way wiser than Water by the River: Spangler, Subtle Worlds: An Explorer’s Field Notes.
What will the Blessed Lion do? That is up for you to unpack and explore. Individuality and uniqueness is never lost in Enlightenment, only separation. Bon Voyage!
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31 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:authentic experience. Speaking from authentic experience tends to come out differently, in a way that is more immediate, present and clear, not tainted by hearsay and so much schematics and cosmologies. But I could be wrong.
Wilber, One Taste: Daily Reflections on Integral Spirituality
"As one who has written extensively about the interior life, meditation, and psychotherapy, Ken Wilber—the leading theorist in the field of integral psychology—naturally arouses the curiosity of his numerous readers. In response to this curiosity, this one-year diary not only offers an unprecedented entrée into his private world, but offers an introduction to his essential thought. "If there is a theme to this journal," Wilber writes, "it is that body, mind, and the luminosities of the soul—all are perfect expressions of the Radiant Spirit that alone inhabits the universe, sublime gestures of that Great Perfection that alone outshines the world."
Wilber's personal writings include:
• Details of his own spiritual practice
• Advice to spiritual seekers
• Reflections on his work and that of other prominent theorists in the field of integral psychology
• His day-to-day personal experiences
• Dozens of his short theoretical essays on topics from art to feminism to spirituality to psychotherapy" -
On 30.5.2024 at 9:38 PM, What Am I said:I've heard something similar. Looking at it through the same kind of lense, how would you classify Zen and Vajrayana?
Zen is a form of Mahayana Buddhism. Vajrayana is Tantric Buddhism, which has Mahayana at its base.
- Mahayana = Nondual Enlightenment to Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE appearances/the world occurs as summum bonum. Philosophical base is middle way/Nagarjuna, or Infinite Being can never be hinted at as object of any kind.
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Hinayana (earliest buddhism):
- Cessation as goal, mainly via the concentrative Jhanas. Nirvikalpa. Blank out. Nothingness. But coming out of it, not necessarily being aware that the same Nothingness is also the substance/Infinite Reality of everything else. That would be the Nondual Enlightenment of Mahayana.
- Hinayana doesn't exist anymore, but Theravada as successor-form. Theravada doesn't evolve from Mahayana but from Hinayana. For example, forms of Thai Buddhism, forest tradition, Ingram, Frank Yang, Rob Burbea and so on are basically Theravada-based or influenced.
- Although nowadays Theravada also can have Nondual Enlightenment as goal, and not just cessation/Jhanas (as a general statement, especially with the latter persons mentioned. Ingram has a nice chapter on map-failure in his "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha". In Zen/Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen I guess the map wouldn't have failed so drastically, and that is why he added meditation techniques from there also. Same with Frank Yang and Rob Burbea.
The equation of cessation=Enlightenment got updated in later Buddhism pretty fast. The same Nothingness experienced in cessation (as, um, NOTHING-ness) can also be experienced WHILE appearances arise, that is (true) Nondual Enlightenment (Nothing-ness+Something) when it is impersonal Infinite Being with no other and not just merging in nondual Unity of a still-alive-though-thinned out separate self).
Early Hinayana: Cessation as goal. Theravada is a continuation of Hinayana, although Enlightenment=cessation(s) got updated to true Nondual Enlightenment in Theravada also, at least in some teachers/lines. But it has a certain "hangover" of valueing cessations a lot, which is ok, because if that is done often enough the Nondual Enlightenment can and does open up. Cessations = Enlightenment would be a prime form of Leos Buddhist Reductionsim.
https://www.shambhala.com/historical-introduction-excerpt-integral-buddhism/
And there is not just "one" Buddhism. There exist so many schools, with development over millenia. And btw. Jainism is so similiar to Buddhism that there are doubts that the historical Buddha even existed (because Buddhas story is pretty much exactly the same as the story of the founder of Jainism Vardhamana Mahavira, see below in blue) or if it is just a founding myth. A framework.
@Leo Gura: One of your favourite Buddhism-
extremist-reductionistafficionados just killed the Buddha. And requests to be promoted to part-time Buddhist-Iconoclast. And maybe Nondual-Enlightement-Reductionist. But no longer Buddhist reductionist, because, you know, got kicked out of the club for killing the Buddha
. And he even delivered some juicy books with a lot of aliens&faries&angels&demons inside as atonement. Oh my, I hope you get my humor
For killing the Buddha softly, see for example "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana":
"It is customary to assume that the Buddha was a historical
character (even iconoclasts like Trevor Ling do not question his
historicity) but parallels with non-Buddhist systems raise a suspicion
that this may not be so. It is no longer believed that there was an
ancient Greek poet called Homer who composed the Iliad and
Odyssey. These “Homeric” epics are now understood to be compiled
and refined from the compositions of many individual storytellers.
Might not the teachings of “the Buddha” be analogous? Could the
teachings also have been an age-old body of wisdom, analogously
compiled, refined and imputed to a single, fictitious author? These
teachings would have been transmitted orally but eventually, when
writing systems arrived, transcribed as suttas. The earliest Buddhist
art does not depict the Buddha as a person, but merely in symbolic
form. In these so-called “aniconic” images, he may be shown as a
parasol, an empty throne, pillar of fire or a pair of footprints. Could
this be an acknowledgment that “the Buddha” was not a person in
the normal meaning of the word?
There is a strange feature of the Buddha’s biography which rarely
receives comment and that is its similarity to the life of Vardhaman.
Also known as Mahāvira (literally, “great man”), Vardhaman was son
of a king, born with the 32 major and minor signs of his body. His
father, the king, consulted wise men who foretold that he was
destined to become a world-ruling emperor or a great spiritual
leader. The wise men advise the king that to prevent him becoming a
great sage, he must keep his son distracted with amusements. This
the king does until, as an adult, Vardhaman escapes from the
palace, meditates in the forest and achieves enlightenment. He
teaches a non-Vedic path which, he says, is called Jainism.
Anyone who knows the life of the Buddha will recognize all this
as the same story. Even so, I have left out a lot of parallels such as
identical personal names of characters in the biographies. Buddhism
and Jainism also share many of the same …
Killing the Buddha by the River softly while selling water
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6 hours ago, ivarmaya said:Sometimes, I can't imagine how people experience reality, how they are not construct-aware, and how they don't get any of this, especially those studying Leo's teachings or similar. Even Curt Jaimungal doesn’t get it.
The problem is that I have a hard time relating to others or understanding how they think.
Is this common? Any tips on how to bridge this gap? I understand Ralston has a similar problem.
Compassion. Less construct-awareness and generally lower level of for example growth on the Spiral Dynamics spectrum equals more suffering. Beings less aware/consciousness generally suffer more. Way more. Because they are more hypotized by their constructs/world-views, and reject many more situations appearing in their mindstream than for example someone on 2nd-tier SD.
That is why stable Awakening needs compassion towards them (because if one doesn't have it, one will suffer/get angry/whatever oneself, and bye bye nondual awakened states). That is btw not new-agey-talk, but a "hard" fact/reality. Nothing easier to kill ones nice off-the-pillow-awakened nondual state than getting annoyed. Took me a loooong time to get it.
Wisdom (or Awakening) and compassion (openness,love,bliss) form a pair in Mahayana-Buddhism. Because they got this around 2 milleania ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva
And even from a metaphysical perspective it makes sense: If True You is all of already (which it is), if one walks around disliking certain aspects of oneself ("others") because they "lack" development, one cuts nondualty in two, shutting off awakened nondual states.-Literally.
It is not a sin of the acorn to be not yet an oak.
And one more perspective: Consider the
stupidityless-than-wise/smart-behaviour of the whole world as divine entertainment. True You is playing a trick on itself. Better be the one laughing in a compassionate way and not the one being annoyed. But that has also to be balanced with compassion in order to not become cynical or negative.Certain local VIPs that yours truly is very fond of seem to be truly getting this now. Chapeau!
Selling Water while swimming in the River & humming along:
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For Marc Leavitt "it" "went down" the same way, with some further Awakenings into Oneness down the line.
"The" Void. Behind your head. Beyond the bubble of the visual field.
Spaceless vastness. Infinite. Timeless. Deep Sleep. Death. Eternity.
Yet, pure potential. And actually, the groundless essence/suchness of every appearance. The substance-less "substance"or suchness of all possible realms.
Groundless ground, "falling" into the Infinite.
"Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head"
Remove any concepts/imaginations of space from "it". Probing with your focus of attention into it only leads to more imagined space, but not spaceless/infinite. Make "it" genuine limitlessness. Boundless. Spaceless. Infinite. "It" is larger than an Infinity of space and endless dimension. "It" contains them all...
Jump? jump?? jump!
Now you just need to find out what you are, and what "others" are. And in what these states of void, dream, wake and deep sleep "roll" before.
19 hours ago, emil1234 said:dunno, it just kind of freaks me out theres an infinite void behind my back. and its part of me, im aware of it. or maybe its aware of me
Maybe there is no "you" if "you" don't imagine yourself (I-feelings, I-thoughts)?
Maybe IT sees only ITSELF, in everything that appears which is IT, but no you?
Maybe there is only THAT? Impersonal Infinite Vastness, able to imagine "small" "you", I-feelings and I-thoughts imagined and moving in IT? Switch it/you on, and switch it/you off if IT is so inclined?
And maybe THAT is YOU?
And then, maybe, all "it" and "void" and "other" becomes Infinite You. Or rather, it is understood to have always been this way. Just with some illusions/ignorance before this true state of things was realized again.
PS: Leavitt, Enlightenment: Behind the Scenes. Could speed up the clarification...
PS PS: Like @Yimpa wrote, the tip of a magnificent infinite endless awe-inspiring iceberg....
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1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:@Water by the River you astound me. do you consider yourself enlightened?
Ah, you know, enlightened enough
As I have already told you. I flinch a bit from calling me Inliytened2 , but yeah, "I" know what I am talking about.
1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:What are your thoughts on solipsism and idealism?
Solipsm: Useless when talking with separate-self-well-and-alive beings, because they always tend to project their Identity on it and blow it up to nondual Unity-states with the Infinite Field of Being (often with the help of some, um, less-than-legal substances). The God
realized-Ego.But yes, there is only one. One-ness. If Solipsism is not just a concept projected by an ego, but a truly realized Way of Being, truly realized that "the" same impersonal Awareness looks through each set of eyes... perfectly fine with me. And also Absolutely... True!
As long as there is an "other", Infinite Being has not been realized, and Solipsism becomes just another conceptual booster for the separate-self to hijack & suffer. The magic word is impersonal. Not only personal, but truly empty and impersonal infinite Awareness/Being.
And here a Koan for you: Who are YOU really? "I" know "you" know it.
Idealism: Empty appearances hovering in "the" groundless Infinite of True Being. So idealism is obviously more truthful than materialistic views. Appearances = "Consciousness stuff", or Suchness. Has become totally obvious and always "verifiable" after a long time of practice cultivating awakened nondual states.
Oneness? Ever found anything&any"one" that possibly could be outside eternal&infinite&groundless YOU? So yes, its talking to myself... But what else is there to do?
1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:YOUR thoughts- I want to hear it from you.
All my thoughts. What I have written in the last post, to my knowledge, you can copy & paste from nowhere. That is why I do the Muppet-Show-Selling gig, because if someone else would have already written all of that in the way I like it, I could have saved myself the trouble and instead go do something else, along the lines of my lovely hobbies.
1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:But yes there is plenty else to talk about @Water by the River!! Expand your horizons immediately! 😀
On your command, my dear dream-brother
:
Hach...
I truly love Aliens&fairies& Angels and demons! Fascinating stuff. Imagine what kind of adventures "we" will have, this life and the Infinity of lifes yet to come
Ok, I have no doubts that some will still put me in the corner of the closed-down-minded Buddhist
r******reductionists (sorry, have yet to adopt on the new very courteous customs at this lovely place here, got a bit of a hang-over), and I admit its my job to make that pidgeon-holing at least a bit more challening... Let me know how I am doing!
It is just that I prefer to have the peace & stability of resting in Infinite True Being in my nice little comfy valley after having come down from the summit. And not to be disturbed by any grasping for the alien. Or for any other "wave-surfing-easing-the-pain-that-a-still-contracted-self-contraction" causes.
That is why I chop-chop any such grasping in my mindstream as soon as it feels like coming from a lack, or from grasping/suffering/self-contraction. Because if the fascination comes from the self-contraction, it is just a new game to keep the self-contraction spinning-suffering-reliefing itself in experiences/understandings and so on. Exploration for enjoyment yes, for grasping no.
The True Being of yours truly has infinite time to explore infinite realms. Luckily, that has become self-evident by just "reaching-into-it" and realizing its eternity, or always-here-nature again. I can hold eternity within the palm of my hand. You know what I mean. Can't disappear. So why be in a hurry and not relax the self-contraction and enjoy the show the shows itself here on this lovely planet?
But each being has to burn its "exploring-the-Multiverse-grasping-Karma" on its own speed. I just sometimes tell little tales about which kind of choice on the path to the Infinite has been benefical for me. Up the mountain to the highest Summit if Infinity Absolute Reality, or up to the secondary-summits with the Aliens sitting on top of it.
Of course, I don't expect too much immediate success doing it, but it still needs to be done.
"At least we can say that we tried" by the River
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11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:I am working on both fronts, up and down. And if I discover in the end that down was better to up, I will let you know.
Excellent.
Although the spectrum you mention with up and down exists, calling it up and down already probably has for many a subtle value-judgement inherent to it, since often "up" is prefered to "down".
In my perspective, it is either
- deeper into manifestation/temporariness/appearance (and finally the illusion and its mechanisms), what you call "up", and which I consider finally deeper into illusion/appearance
- "deeper" into everpresent eternal unchanging always here True Infinite Being, creating a karmic-momentum on the soul level to tending to stay realized and aware of True Infinite Being. Or what you call "down"
12 hours ago, Javfly33 said:There is Consciousness + ( Human body + thoughts. ) This Two DO NOT form a self.
Yes. I would even phrase it as Infinite Being CONTAINING Consciousness OF + ( Human body + thoughts).
When Infinite Being expresses itself in one perspective/being as Deep Sleep, there is not even Consciousness (since consciousness as the term we normally use is always consciousness OF). Just the potential of Awareness is "there"/"not there". Since it is NOTHING-ness if nothing arises. Yet it is real. More real than "anything" else.
But since here all duality collapses, one could call this Infinite Being either Awareness (or not call it Awareness, but just Absolute/Infinite/Nothingness/True Being). Awareness is an inherent potential of Infinite Being, but it is just "not there" (as consciousness, or more precise consciousness OF) if nothing arises. At the same time, it can be validly said Awareness "is always there", independend of something arising or not. It is just not the normal consciousness (OF sth.) we think of when nothing arises.
When anything arises (and be it a very subtle consciousness OF any arising), we have consciousness OF. And that is already one level "lower" from True Infinite Being.
Fully grasping this is the last step to Enlightenment. Mind/separate-self can't go "there", to Awareness/Nothingness "of" nothing. "And again God said, Thou mayest not see my face, for a man shall not see me, and live."
Any movement of focus or attention, any mind-movement, is already not IT. Too much movement in "the" pristinely empty Infinite. "It" can't turn around over its shoulder to see itself, that is already too much movement, subtle manifestations and movement of attention/focus.
Yet, the Absolute can be intuited as that where any mind-movement can not go to, the spaceless timeless Absolute "beyond" all experience/movement. Space (or any n-dimensional room) is the first manifestation/arising in the Infinite, and then come appearances which change/move (which is time). And then comes consciousness OF arising/appearance, but only when these building blocks are in place. So already quite late...
And when these first archetypes (space, time, appearances) are "understood/realized" as appearing/arising in Infinite Being/Awareness, and Infinite True Being as always here, as that formless Infinite Reality before which all other states like waking,dreaming, deep sleep, Alien, n+1 "roll" before... That Infinite True Being where attention/focus/Consciousness OF can never "go" but only appear within... then the Absolute/Infinite can be intuited/realized. "One" can stand at the threshold "of" "it" and realize no attention/focus/mind/separate-being/consciousness-OF can ever "go" "there". And paradoxically, "IT" can be realized from looking "back" from one level lower.
All "one" can do is bounce at that threshold (of the Infinite, "its" Event Horizon) and truly realize that NOTHING can ever "go" to the Absolute Infinite Being, since that would already be a movement within it. And this way, paradoxically,IT can finally realize/understand itself.
But all necessary conditions must be met, and separate-self (I thoughts I feelings, the hypnotizing machine of concepts), all arisings of the "outer" world as empty appearances, and time (as always here) and space (normally the last to go and realized as imagined too within the Infinite) must be transcended and seen through. All manifestation, including the first archetypes of time and space... And then the Infinite Ocean of timeless limitless Awareness/appearance can realize itself to be the only Infinite eternal Being, one without a second.
Your Muppet-Show Salesman by the River, selling to Himself within Infinite Being
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9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:I don't see you appreciating any aliens but rather mocking and dismissing those who do.
12 hours ago, Water by the River said:PS: Selling & broken record: Yeah, you are right: I guess I start to sound like this guy:
Well, although I admit I appreciate your new communication style (without any rodents & icepicks
), I must admit that I consider that I didn't take myself too seriously in comparing me to the muppet-show-guy, telling always the same sell sell sell water by the River.
12 hours ago, Water by the River said:And one can also appreciate the lovely lady & lovely alien when resting in True Being or after having fallen into the Infinite Ocean.
Is that not enough appreciation? Oh, I deeply appreciate the magnificence of manifestation &Kosmos& ETs and Infinity.
I mean, I don't send the poor souls here wave surfing in psychedelic (Alien-)-100ft+ Nazaré waves instead of letting go of all this illusory (and just appearing) wave-surfing (or have they become real in the meantime?). Instead of sending them on the path of realizing their True Identity with the Infinite Ocean by dropping into it and dissolving the imagined boundaries of being a separate wave.
You clearly value the wave-surfing higher and belittle the Enlightenment path of truly transcending the separate-self and truly becoming the Infinite Ocean.
Lets agree to disagree in the meantime?
Your favourite Muppet-Show-Salesman by the River
PS: Who truly deeply respects you and your potential for reflection and continued evolution, like you did with your last video. Few people could have done this. I assume you have a certain "karmic" budget on leading people temporarily towards wave-surfing instead of the infinite ocean, because your path can't be otherwise. But at some point if that continues with more devotees drowning in the 100ft-Nazaree-waves, I assume Spirit will put an end to this. You had your warning shots over the last 1,5 years, so be wise and on a good path. Godspeed.
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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:@Water by the River You are like a broken record. You are like a scientist who goes around say, "A woman?! That's just atoms! An alien?! That's just atoms. All I care to know is atoms! The suchness of that underlies everything."
But you actually have no understanding or appreciation of a woman or an alien. And yet, ironically, you are stuck in that human body and mind, spinning on repeat.
Oh well. Where there is not stable realization of Infinite Being and nondual Awakened States sobre in everyday life, there is only
suffering-in-cycleswave-surfing. Wave-surfing up and down Maslows pyramid. And one can also appreciate the lovely lady & lovely alien when resting in True Being or after having fallen into the Infinite Ocean.Just too much preference for
wave-surfingunderstanding consciousness of woman/alien n+1 prevents dropping into the Ocean of Infinite truly Impersonal Being. Which btw. is an Awakening which one can't anticipate or imagine in any way before it really happens. If one could, it would have already happened...So lets hope it doesn't need a major or minor crocodile (like the one has that has bitten you out of the pretty much non-stop-psychedelic gig of last year) to wise you up on wether the summon bonum is dropping into the ocean or surfing ever higher waves.
Spiritual Intuition can make one skip some of the crocodiles, one doesn't need to get also bitten by the crocodile sitting at the fork of the road with the sign "Summum Bonum: Wave surfing or falling into the Infinite Ocean?"
Selling the eternal boring broken record of dropping in to the Infinite Ocean of Being instead of wave surfing
by
the River
PS: Selling & broken record: Yeah, you are right: I guess I start to sound like this guy:
So surf the largest wave ever dear Leo, and then after have done that I wish you that you have the Karma to finally drop into the Infinite Oean that You Truly are:
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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:Look, understand what it is that I do here. I explore Consciousness to discover things about it. It's like exploring the Earth back 2000 years ago. You never know what you'll find. All I'm doing is exploring Consciousness and making certain observations about it. This doesn't mean I have all the answers. I speak of what I have discovered so far, and who knows what I will discover tomorrow. So I don't place any limits on it. But what is obvious is that humans are generally stuck in a very narrow band of consciousness, regardless of whether they are enlightened or not.
As a basic example, an enlightened man can fail at a basic thing like understanding what the consciousness of a woman is like. A woman does not have the same consciousness as a man. It's qualitatively different. Even though of course Nothingness is at the root of all consciousness. But reducing it to Nothingness means you still don't understand the consciousness of a woman. To understand the consciousness of a woman you'd have to stop being a man and become a woman. And if you actually did that, your understanding of consciousness would grow.
Nothingness or suchness is the essence of every appearance, appearing in Infinite Impersonal Being. Form(or appearance) is Nothingness, Nothingness is appearance/form. The same "stuff/non-stuff". Realizing this beyond a doubt is Enlightenment, expressing and stabilizing these awakened impersonal states in daily life is the path that follows after it. Infinite Being lives itself, the universe "universes", without any contraction into a centre of perception and its lenses and filter-illusions.
Consciousness OF a woman, OF a man, OF a human, OF an alien... any consciousness OF or more radically, any consciousness OF anything, be it self-reflective or not, is like a show of states (appearance/form/temporary/not really existing but just appearing) rollling "before" the impersonal Awareness of True Being. Which is pure Impersonal Awareness, unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with potential for sentience. Infinite Being. And which is Nothingness if nothing arises/appears.
The consciousness OF something (man/woman/alien) is wave surfing on the ocean of Infinite Being, stabilizing living from the impersonal nondual awakened states where this Infinite Reality if Infinite Being is obvious (and "living itself") is dropping into the Infinite Ocean and becoming it fully. And afterwards, one can still do wavesurfing, or consciousness-OF-x exploration.
And rumour has it that wave surfing the Infinite Ocean can become quite tiring & stressfull & and a bit less than relaxed if done for too long by a separate-self-contraction. And at some point when one doesn't want continue surfing ever new waves (of which there exists an Infinity of, forever and ever to be explored by God "itself") the dropping & dissolving & and fully BEing the ocean can happen.
But wave surfing is all fine and well as long as it is fun...
Selling neoprene suits so that the dropping into the ocean feels comfy for all tired wave-surfers
by the River
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5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:Now that I think of it, reduction of morality could itself be another reductionist trap.
You could formulate morality is a much high-caliber, more positive, more visionary way as: Being of highest service to Consciousness/Love. Instead of merely reducing harm to other, this formulation of morality means you take on a proactive role is being of service to the whole Universe, whatever that entails. Of course all this assumes you have a very clean and deep connection to Consciousness/God, not just some human spiritual act. It could only be done by the wokest and most developed humans.
So the problem with this formulation is that it's totally beyond the normal human. It would require Awakening and much more.
Excellent!
Turqouise, Coral and Teal are knocking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva
Wonderful peace of real estate to live ones life from...
“The intuition is given; the unpacking is our moral dilemma, always.” Ken Wilber
"Wilber contends with his notion of Basic Moral Intuition that we ought to protect and promote the greatest depth for the greatest span"
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1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:@Water by the River i hope your peace pipes are free
Peace pipes?
Selling?
Just
Selling Water by the River
for the cost of the illusion of the separate-self.
The rest is free, including the peace pipes. Not that the Apache and Comanche start doing the gig described by @Breakingthewall
On 28.5.2024 at 10:17 AM, Breakingthewall said:It depends, if you are an Apache the morality is: Kill all the Comanches, if possible by torturing them by having dogs devour their intestines or by dragging them among cacti. Then enslave their women and have many children with them. If one bothers you, exchange her for a horse or cut off her nose.
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13 hours ago, James123 said:I was chasing enlightenment for years and thinking that I can reach enlightenment via pychedelics (thats how my addiction to infinite love therefore pychedelics was created). However, it is not true.
Consuming pychedelics, activates the mind. Therefore attachment with thinking still occurs, such as I am god / creator (because, you feel as god, which is attachment with thinking via feeling), same as infinite love, infinite nothingness, infinity etc...
However, enlightenment has nothing to do with mind, out of any charts. Because, "I" (who consume pychedelics or etc...) can not be enlightened, when "I" drops enlightenment happens. Which is True Being ( As deep sleep, No experience, no thinking, nor attachments etc...) The one who Borns, consume pychedelics, realize what god is was just an illusion in the first place. Therefore, nothing has never happened and now is before so called birth. As Peter Raltson says "Enlightenment is simply being where you already are". or Papaji "Nothing has never happened, and realization of that is Nirvana". or Ramana Maharsi "You are closest to who you are when you are in deep sleep", or Rubert Spira "Eating an apple better than Recognition of Enlightenment, which is what You really are". And with Enlightenment, the mind permanently becomes quite, desires ends, therefore suffering ends. that's it.
I am not against the pychedelics. I tripped many times and was addicted to pychedelics / mystical experiences. Because, they are the best ride in the park.
I hope this helps.
Much Love!!!
Excellent.
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16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:See, when nondualists and Buddhists meditate, they turn off their higher mind in order to hit Nothingness, and the limitation of that method is that you cannot think deeply about Infinity.
That is not the case in the higher states of for example Mahamudra stage 4 Nonmeditation, and neither in Dzogchen. The mind runs along quite nicely, but the thoughts are moving like leaves in the wind, as appearances in Infinite Being.
The shutting off is emphasized in Theravada-approaches, leading to the Jhanas and cessation. Cessation is not the goal nor the highest state in all later developed Mahayana systems. The goal their is nondual Enlightenment sobre, while thoughts and the world arise in Infinite Being. And one can contemplate about Infinity all day long in these awakened states.
Selling Water by the River
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7 hours ago, Razard86 said:I am ABSOLUTE MORALITY itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility ?
7 hours ago, Razard86 said:1. Never give someone an experience that you wouldn't want.
2. Never give someone an experience that they wouldn't want.
3. Lastly, do not think or speak or act out an experience you don't want.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:It depends, if you are an Apache the morality is: Kill all the Comanches, if possible by torturing them by having dogs devour their intestines or by dragging them among cacti. Then enslave their women and have many children with them. If one bothers you, exchange her for a horse or cut off her nose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_pipe
This lovely unique place here never gets old.
Selling peace pipes by the River
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26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:@Water by the River You are engaged in the reductionism of Consciousness through your Buddhism.
If you want to call realizing Infinite impersonal eternal True Being (and staying awakened nondual states sobre) reductionism of Consciousness...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism
"Reductionism is any of several related philosophical ideas regarding the associations between phenomena which can be described in terms of other simpler or more fundamental phenomena.[1] It is also described as an intellectual and philosophical position that interprets a complex system as the sum of its parts.[2]"
Luckily, Infinite/Absolute/Nondual Being doesn't have parts. Nondual. Only in duality/ignorance it appears so as being divded and having parts. Nondual doesn't have parts. So reductionism doesn't apply.
Selling better don't play reductionism with Nondual Infinite Being by the River
PS: Wise new video by the way. Meeting all children of your True Being where they are at. Stabilizing from yellow to turqoise to coral and so on. Nice. A solid base to stabilize the love that resides in Infinite Reality if it is not divided.
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5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:You can.
That's the magic of Infinity
That is why I wrote infinite. In-finite. Not-finite. I didn't write Infinity as you did.
Something not-finite can't be measures in any way, that is its defining property. Not higher nor lower, not more or less, not here or not here. Infinite Being. Always here, and never any kind of form. Reality itself. Infinite Reality, to be precise. Unchanging. True Being.
Techically, Infinity is manifestation. A mathematical object. Manifestation and appearance. Happening in Infinite Being. But not the Infinite, as in Infinite Being.
Only the content or what appears in Infinite being can vary, different Infinities, appearances, understandings. All the understanding you grasp is understanding of more content/manifestation/appearance/shadow/illusion. Realizing/Being/"Understanding" the Infinite Absolute of True Being on the other side is Enlightenment, which actually brings the satisfaction you seek with your understanding-project of infinity of infinities.
Confusing the Infinite or Absolute with Infinity is btw. the core difference between true Impersonal Infinite Nondual Realization and a nondual realization still interpreted through elements of subtle ego/personality/separate-self filters. It is btw. the core mistake you are still making, and that will not change until you get a big clap from the One Hand and finally let the rest of whatever remains of your separate-self or "Leo"-ness die and see through it as mere appearance. Temporary form arising, a hypnotic illusion covering True Infinite Being. So basically seeing through & cutting off in real time what remains of your remaining separate-self gig.
So well, can get more Infinity than Infinity: Yes, true, known since Cantor. Different classes/sizes of Infinity exist, and that why one can get more Infinity than Infinity.
But can't get more infinite than infinite, can't get more absolute than absolute. That is how absolute is defined. And Absolute=infinite. Non finite.
I know makes this differentiation doesn't make sense for you, but maybe just keep it in mind.
Somebody once made a really smart video on youtube about open-mindedness. Maybe stay open-minded, so that the One Hand has a change of finding you and clapping the rest of the Leo-illusion out of you?
Trust me, nothing more wonderful than that. In that moment, all Aliens & ETs in the Infinity of Multiverses will give you a hug, and whisper in your ear: My Darling, we just appear to be different, but actually we are all one, lovers of truth and understanding united in Infinite Being and of the same essence.
And then you can continue meeting & hugging these way more intelligent beings and bask in their understanding of Infinities, but coming from infinite nondual being before the trip, and letting them appear in nondual true being during the hugging. Then we would have a truly happy love affair, since the essence of these beings wouldn't leave you after the romantic trip.
Selling Water by the River
PS: As you know, no Lèse-majesté inteded, always. And always with (imagined) alien respect & love.
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1 minute ago, OldManCorcoran said:In the Sisyphus myth (or maybe a commentary ABOUT the myth in some other fiction), Sisyphus learns to find joy in the act of pushing the boulder itself, without caring that the boulder will never reach the top. The act of pushing it gave him purpose.
Samsara, or the separate-self suffering mechanism in a nutshell.
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2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:Permanently? Well, l know you will say yes, that suffering can be completely transcended and the mind be permanently free of obstacles. But let's see, we are human, our programming is there.
Suffering = pain x resistance.
Well, I prefer to not try every horror to test it (I know you are veeeery creative when it comes to that). But yes. IT is pretty amazing.
3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:If you lock yourself in a dark room for 2 months, what about? zero suffering?
Dark Room Retreat. Endohuasca-visions. I assume, but never tried. The Tibetans do it since a long time. Influences the brain chemistry and serotonin-dynamics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_retreat
https://dmtquest.org/psychedelic-melatonin/
8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:Beautiful song btw
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4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:The end of suffering is to enjoy suffering.
read too much Nietzsche lately?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
"What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence" ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine."[23]
oh well...
and now the Truth:
Selling
With no hindrance in mind and therefor no fear
by the River
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12 minutes ago, bambi said:You calling spiritual people rodents/rats and using this termonology influenced a lot of negative trips to myself actually. I was looking at you as an authority figure, and this language was pointed at myself which caused a lot of fear and anxiety, I would then have nightmares of being eaten by rats, very terrorfying lol!
Um, guess I was lucky then that neither the hungry rodents nor any crocodiles who skipped lunch did manage to get into my dreams
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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:And the absolute stuff can also be wrong.
Yup. When "it" is not Absolute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy)
Can't get more Absolute than Absolute, can't get more Infinite than Infinite.
I agree in so far that many Enlightenments (by far most of them) are announced when it is not Great-(Zen-lingo) or final/full-Enlightenment (Impersonal, Death of the separate self, real Satori), but just Nonduality, or Unity of the separate-self with the universe (just nondual, not impersonal, just unity of personal + Universe, or Kensho). Or, the difference between waking up and a nondual dream.
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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:I am working to let go of it. But I also try to be humorous.
... and no imagined rodent has been hurt
13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:They are not lying, but they still live in a sort of enlightened spiritual human fantasy. A lot of fantasy still takes place even after all the enlightenment. MIND is always making shit up. That's how reality is created. People are creating their own realities and living in them. Enlightened people are not above this.
This is why I proritize understanding. Without understanding you will not understand how MIND is doing this. MIND is a tricky fucking beast and enlightenment is not the end it.
Imagine being fully enlightened and thinking Ben Shapiro is great. That's the reality of enlightenment.
Enlightenment doesn't mean that one is always right when it comes to relative truth like the things you mention.
It just meaning knowing what you truly are, and what Reality is. Answers to both is the same. And on top, having that accessible all the time means nothing else than being to switch off/cut-off any ignorant I-thought and I-feeling of being only this little body mind, which makes the states (1)-(4) available all the time.
And this can be done (without lying to oneself) if the Awakened State is accessible anytime
- (1) Infinite boundlessness of the Visual Field (and any other perception/dimension)
- (2) its groundlessness, or mere-appearance (imagined) character "hovering" in Infinity
- (3) the eternal nature of this Infinite Reality/Consciousness is always known
- (4) there is no (zero!) separate-self I-thought/feeling still hypnotizing. Impersonal. Empty. Silent. Vast. Yet, giving rise to all appearances and thoughts. And if one chooses to, one can cut off these thoughts/feelings off in real-time. The magic word is real-time, Or high-speed cut-off of any thought/feeling arising that ignorantly believes in being only this body-mind. Speed & strength of awareness, before any thoughts starts hypnotizing oneself and are believed&elaborated. And that takes normally many years. But its worth it.
- The high-speed cutting of of (4) isn't always necessary, but that ability is what opens up the Awakened states described in (1-3). And if thoughts then rise again, simple mindfulness lets let flow in Infinite Being without believing them, if (1)-(3) are powerful enough.
- And: Being able to generate (1)-(3) with (4) induces so much bliss that the annoying separate-self arisings don't "grip", even if they are not cut off in realtime but just watched in mindfulness. Ego-wanting/avoiding only grips when one is not in a positive enough state already.
One has a human, but one isn't one. True Being is Infinite Reality. That doesn't mean one does stupid things for to ones relative vehicle, like James hand-into-the-fire. Beings who know their True Nature are not brain dead.
And that is having Absolute Truth always available. Or Enlightenment. It is not an idea, and there is zero doubt about it that this is final. Can't get more infinite than infinite, and there is and only can only be THAT. And any Alien, ET or way-out-spectacular-appearance-of-consciousness appears only in THAT. Nice to understand&see, but not really urgent in any way.
There were enlightened Zen Masters who thought Japans Imperial Wars were great. So one can be totally wrong on relative stuff. But the Absolute stuff must be handled.
Selling smiling little annoying Buddhist-rodents by the River
in Personal Development -- [Main]
Posted
I preferred Harakiri. Which had paradoxically quite similiar results. Even pretty stable results.
That move enabled also to stay a bit more to the humble side. A bit. Since the other side of the spectrum is a bit overloaded with Godrealized egos, so its not really comfy & spacy there.
Sir, my friend, I bullshit you not.
Well, if we go "full God mode", lets do it with style:
Show me anything that is not included in Infinite Being. Then I will allow myself to show you the mixer.
Yes, the real thing comes "after" the mixer/Void:
And only God remains. Which is an oxymoron, because there is and ever was and ever will be only Infinite Being. Or God.
Or raspberry.
Lets call it Infinite Being. Raspberry is maybe not perfect, and God is a bit loaded... with a lot of stuff ego can hijack. Technically, you can call the Absolute or Infinite Being whatever you want. And no concept/pointer will fully work, just point.
And the God-pointer points tend to be a bit overloaded with that which actually prevents true realization: Blowing up the ego & grandiosity which actually belongs to Infinite Being, not an ego/separate-self.
Selling good mixer-pointers by the River