Eastbranch

@Gopackgo This reminds me of the story where there are five blind men trying to describe an elephant. One gets the leg and thinks the elephant is like a tree, one the ear and thinks it's a fan, etc. We all speak from our experience and are all correct, but nobody has the full picture. I've noticed my "awakening" experience is much different from most others, like I got the hair at the end of the tail. Thank you for the enlightening discussion.

@SOUL You make a good point with the dog exercise. We do and don't control our thoughts. We do and don't have free will. We are all one, yet we are separate. I completely buy into the concept of nonduality, yet all of our experience is set up on these fundamental examples of duality. The universe is obviously nondual, yet duality is the essence of our experience.

Gopackgo, you have obviously put a great deal of thought and observation into this topic. My hat's off to you. I actually agree with everything you say as a conceptual possibility, however my experience in these matters just happens to vary from yours. I completely agree that decisions just seem to happen. Thoughts arise from nothing. I love the exercise of staring at your outstretched index finger. Then you decide to bend it. However there is no thought preceding bending your finger. You simply observe yourself bending your finger. It would appear therefore that we have no free will and we simply observe every action we undertake. However I often have the experience of being guided. Sometimes I reject this guidance out of fear or selfishness. Other times I follow it completely. Even though I merely observe myself completing these actions, I am none the less an active participant in the process of choosing. I believe the concept of time plays a part here. I actually don't believe that time exists, but rather only space and movement. Through the expansion of the universe, rotation of our galaxy, solar system, earth, etc., we are moving at incredible speed to each next experience in life. The past, present, and future all exist simultaneously, but we are only sitting at the present, which I see as a location rather than an instance in time. The present is infinitely small and our objective is to direct ourselves to the future condition that we wish to experience, within the almost infinite range of future possibilities. The shift from present to future occurs so quickly that we cannot experience the process consciously. But that's just the explanation I've come up with after years of contemplation about this stuff. I would never say it's true. It's just how I deal with this mystery that we're living. I love your insights and you've given me some things to consider. Thank you

As Leo suggested, just touching two fingers has worked well for me.

Note that Lao Tzu understood that the true nature of the universe is contradiction, the traditional definition of duality.

Well, I'm not quite sure about the logic here, but I think at its root this is the age old question about free will vs. determinism. It's true that we can't control our thoughts and that thoughts simply arise rather than being produced at will. However, I don't think this fact gives weight to the idea of determinism. As spiritually awaking individuals, we gravitate toward counter intuitive ideas that fly in the face of cultural convention to make our egos feel that we are more enlightened than the poor unwashed masses. But we need to be real here. Don't we all have the experience of having free will? Is it not obvious that we are presented with choices and choose one over the other? Of course we do. But we are choosing from an almost infinite set of possibilities that have already occurred. So in this sense we do not have free will. Everything has already happened and we chose to experience the part of everything that we desire. So we have free will and at the same time we do not. This is the conventional definition of duality, two opposites are both true, or one position can be true and untrue at the same time. Look closely and you will see that duality is the fundamental nature of the universe. For example, are we all one, or are we individuals? This answer is, we are both.

@Ken Lecoq That sounds great, follow the opportunities. Like Leo said, start with baby steps. I really think that meditation is great, but for me, I really need to completely unplug for days at a time to go really deep. No media, little or no human contact. And you're right, fear is an excellent teacher and brings growth like nothing else. You're on the right track. Good luck!

This is very true. That first night when the sun is going down and the sounds start getting weird can send your mind into a panic. Pretty much the opposite of meditation. Runaway fear.

I've taken this approach a number of times. I'm quite experienced at backpacking, so the logistics of food, water, etc. aren't a distraction for me. Actually the ritual of cooking, eating, cleaning is very meditative. Chop wood, carry water. The best place for me has been the desert, but a forest is good too. It's nice to be next to water and have a filter so you can easily get water. I often head off trail so there's no chance of seeing anyone. Then I set up camp and draw a circle around the perimeter. I try not leave that perimeter for at least 24 hours. At some point you may have to branch out before you go insane, but I don't feel that disrupts he experience. The point is that you're not seeing or hearing anyone and you're not plugged into media. After about one day your mind will start to calm down. By the third day you can get pretty deep. I'm not militant about technique. Just by being alone out there you are doing so much better than being anywhere near town. Don't try too hard and don't have a big goal. It will be rewarding regardless. By the way, fasting stresses me out and doesn't help me at all. Might be different for you though....

I really have to agree here. I've experienced no-self, no-freewill, utter bliss, and emptiness. However, I keep coming back "here" (physical). No matter how much I'd like to get back to "there" (consciousness) I realize that "there" is not going to be a permanent state, at least not in this lifetime for me. Even the gurus live "here." So the concept of non-duality doesn't get me closer to transcendence. Understanding that no-self (consciousness) exists is essential, but the existence of no-self does not preclude the existence of self (physical). Self and no-self both exist and both are a part of this insane universe. Determinism and freewill also both exist, at the same time. Nothing and Something both exist together too. This is the real mind fuck. And it makes total sense, based on our every day experience and our experiences toward enlightenment. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy in the universe to trick us into believing in a self that doesn't really exist. Who would be playing this trick? The self both exists and doesn't exist and both states are equally valid. This concept is so simple and empirical to me. I don't understand why very few others view it this way. Is anybody else on the same track with me here? If we could just get past this simple idea about self vs. no-self and something vs. nothing and just accept that they both exist together, we could get to the really interesting questions, like what the hell is all this for? That's the really big leap, IMHO.

Fish and water research for a government land management agency. It's a blast.

Name: Dave Age: 52 Gender: Male Location: Boise, ID, USA Occupation: Fish and water research Marital Status: Divorced Kids: Ages 12 and 15 Hobbies: Spirituality, nature, fly fishing This topic is so cool. I can't believe what people have overcome. Highly inspiring. I got into personal development when I saw one of Leo's videos on YouTube. I think it was about not caring what other people think. Thank you Leo. I've been doing enlightenment stuff for over 25 years. Love it. Challenges overcome: Being bullied and beat up as a kid Dysfunctional, controlling marriage of 20 years Timidness, insecurity Working on: Self confidence/image Meeting the right woman Procrastination at home High consciousness in raising my kids

I'll have to agree with swanlights on this one, but only because I read A New Earth first and thought Power of Now as a bit of a letdown. I think New Earth is fantastic and would recommend it to anyone. Not sure why Power of Now seems so much more popular...

I've found that my imperfect journey into enlightenment keeps bringing me closer to what I will call God, for lack of a better term. Almost 30 years ago I decided to dump my Christian upbringing completely to study other faiths and practices. Before long I decided to trash every belief and only accept what I could experience, directly and personally. Through work and meditation (along with much angst, confusion, and self doubt) I began to experience a guiding force that I can only recognize as supreme consciousness or God. This force has lead me to people, places, and events that I could never have encountered without a connection to some higher, omnipresent "spirit." Mine is not the experience of others and I don't even recommend exploring this path. I am not enlightened by any means. I'm just saying that this is my truth from my experience. This experience is concrete and tangible for me. So personally, I connect to God as a guiding force, without any preconceived notions about what God is.

@Hadrian Thank you Hadrian. You will find your own path and it will be different from all others, just as it should be. Very best to you...