Ulax

@eTorro Hey dude, I'm not sure what you were trying to get across to me. Would you be willing to rephrase?

I think this a video on this topic could be of a lot of value. I could see it helping people in a variety of situations. Also, to my recollection I note that Leo you included conflict resolution as an example in your stage yellow video. And, so I think it could be an interesting, stimulating topic for you to prepare for us too, As well as,, to my mind, being another high consciousness teaching for the Actualized.org audience.

@Leo Gura I believe I understand what you're saying. How about with regards to someone with psychosis or schizophrenia? I.e. delusion, hallucinations

@Leo Gura Would you say it has changed aspects of your understanding of those who are seemingly held to be severely mentally ill?

@Michael569 You are welcome

I recommend this book. I think it is useful for learning about assertiveness. I think it can help integrate various aspects of various stages of people's spiral development.

@Leo Gura That analogy ?

@Loba @Thought Art Imo, I think I get where the idea that we its better to just let things be comes from. I can see it as coming from stage turquoise style messages. However, to my mind, integration of all stages of the spiral is important. To my mind, if we want integration of all stages then we need to help get this forum into a higher consciousness shape. I think letting things be has merit to it. However, I think it leaves things unintegrated. Changing the forum into a higher consciousness state, even through individual action would, to my mind, likely change the course of various people's lives. For example, imagine someone from the incel community comes here, and says their view but gets met with seemingly hostile comments to a post they make. I would imagine they would likely leave and search for another community online. However, if the forum was higher consciousness, then I think it would be more likely that that person would stay in the community, and then they might get more involved in actualized content and their life changes significantly for the positive. Maybe they then go out and have a more conscious career and raise the consciousness of lots of different people. And perhaps 100s of people end up having their lives changed for the positive just because the forum was at a high enough consciousness for the incel identifying dude to feel accepted enough on the forum. Can replace the person in this example for an example of a young girl who was raped repeatedly growing up, and is desperately looking for some sorts of answers online. In one instance she comes on actualized and doesn't feel accepted and leaves, and gets involved in a cult. In another she comes on actualized and we've made this forum into a place that is higher consciousness, say stage yellow. The forum members meet her where she is at, and she gets involved with the actualized content and she starts going to therapy, starts recovering from her traumas etc. I guess one of the points I'm trying to get across is that I think people's lives will really be affected by the level of consciousness with which the forum resonates with. And even if individually we feel like we aren't making a difference, I think if we endeavour to act in a higher consciousness manner, then we can also inspire others, and I think we never know whether one person's understanding message on a forum post is the difference between someone leaving the forum and someone staying on the forum.

@something_else I don't think what you are saying is totally true. I think it would depend on the context, i.e. who the girl is, the circumstance she is in, the way the speaker says it, the speaker's appearance etc. I think numerous women could react with curiosity. I don't doubt many could react with hostility and suspicion. However, I think there would be many, many potential different responses from women who are referred to as female.

@something_else I think I understand what you are claiming. I think I've seen examples where I've had a slightly shocked reaction to the way that someone has used the term 'females'. I had the sense that the speaker viewed women as objects when he said that. I get the sense that this is a similar response you have to OP's use of the word in this thread, and also the use of the word 'female' more generally. Would you say my assumption is true to your experience? I would say I have a somewhat different perspective to you. When you say "Most of the time it just sounds too formal, impersonal and objectifying" it seems to me that you are intending to state that it is a fact that using the word 'females' usually sounds too formal, impersonal and objectifying. I don't think it is a fact. I think its likely that it is moreso that the use of the term 'female' sounds too formal, impersonal and objectifying to you. And that you are confident in that belief. Hence, I am guessing that you believe that it is a fact that the term 'female' sounds too formal, impersonal and objectifying. Do you believe you understand the point I'm intending for you to consider? I think its important to consider, what I see to be, the perspective you appear to me to be showing. And I also think that it is important to recognise that, if you accept my view that it is a personal belief, your view is a personal belief rather than an objective fact. Otherwise, I think, at least, we avoid jumping to conclusions about what the intentions of another person are. If we then get OP's personal perspective, in addition to yours, then I think we can have a more constructive and higher consciousness dialogue. I would be curious to hear your thoughts regarding what I've said here.

@Antor8188 Hi dude. I think for some girls in some situation yes and for some girls in other situations no. And with those situations where a girl does get turned off it might only be a bit of a loss of sexual desire for one girl, whilst being a large loss of sexual desire for another girl. I think she will more be unconsciously picking up on where your decision to not pay the bill is coming from in that moment. For example, I imagine there would be a different sub-communication if you thought that splitting the bill was a reasonable request to make, compared to if you thought splitting the bill was an embarrassing thing to do and you associated it with shame. My understanding is that that sub-communication may be a relevant factor that determines how much sexual desire she feels for you.

@something_else I understand but I don't think that is necessarily true.

@integral Thank you

@Thought Art I think I share what seems to me to be an ambition to see the forum become more conscious, collaborative and respectful. I've had a think about what personal actions a user could take in an effort to help achieve that ambition. Here is what comes to mind for me and what I thought would be conducive to these aims: - Speak using first person language. I.e. 'I think that X is the best solution' instead of 'X is the best solution'. - Don't be verbally abusive to the other person. No matter what they say to you. For example, instead of responding 'You're being an arsehole' you can respond 'I don't think its appropriate to speak to me in that way' and report their post if you think it is abusive. To my mind, responding to abuse with abuse is still abuse. I still find it inappropriate and also is part of what derails dialogue and the chances of a more collaborative atmosphere on the forum. - Take responsibility for our own emotions. Instead of placing the responsibility for our emotional responses on others. For example, I'd say it is taking responsibility if we say, 'When you said X, I felt Y'. And, it is not taking responsibility if we say something akin to, 'you make me feel so angry' or 'nah that pisses me off'. - Report comments/ posts if you think they are behaving abusively - Voice opinion regarding behaviour of mods and/ or Leo, non-abusively, if you think they are not responding reasonably to abusive behaviour or engaging in it themselves. - Show an understanding of the other person's position. - Don't invalidate the other person's feelings, i.e. 'you are a pussy if you feel scared', or 'don't worry' ---------------------------------------- I like that you made this post btw. I've decided to intend to have a read through that book about impossible conversations that I believe you said Leo recommended you.

@petar8p I agree re money. Regarding the alternative, I think there will likely be various alternatives. However, I think the major solution will be conscious politics, or a really effective AI depth psychotherapy that gets developed in the future.

@Jacob Morres I agree with the idea that focusing so heavily on outer game can be v counterproductive at times. It seems to me that by not doing deep inner work and doing lots of outer work many folks develop cluster b like coping strategies when they get effective at pickup. For example, I look at videos by someone like Bradicus who seems to me to have not done too much deep inner work, and it seems to me like he's got an unchecked grandiosity to numerous of his behaviours. Also, I want to speak on what I think is a slightly different, though related subject. I think RSD, and to some extent also how Leo, are not conscious of the negative aspects of recommending pickup in such a seemingly one-size-fits-all fashion. I think rsd is mostly stage orange, and red. I think it follows that they don't understand the effects of their teachings. For example, it seems there is an idea that those who are the most successful by pick up norms are seen to be winners who simply exercised their freedom of will better than those who are less successful by pickup norms. I think folks who engage with their content will have very mixed results. And the results, as I believe is so with everything, will ultimately be determined by factors outside of their control like mental health situation, social experiences, circumstances, luck of results, financial situation, ability to resonate with the material, ability to have an open mind. However, I don't think any RSD instructor acknowledges any of this to a significant level. And I don't think its in their business interests to acknowledge it openly. From personal experience, I believe made progress, in some significant aspects, through doing pickup. However, I believe I had some seriously negative effects from it. For example, I think as a consequence of implementing pickup aspects to my life, i.e. cold approach, I was re-traumatised, and the severity of my dissociation subsequently increased significantly. I'm not saying that pick shouldn't therefore be recommended. However, just that recommending pickup, in the broadstroke way I see it tends to be, can lead to negative consequences for various people. In that aspect, I think there is a lack of integrity and/ or consciousness with regards to the behaviour of those who do recommend PU in that way.

@integral To your understanding, is this diagram made based on a theory of David Hawkin's?

@Natasha Hi Natasha, just noticed this thread. I'm curious about whether, it being a seemingly long time since you made this thread, you have any of your own perspectives to share re overcoming obstacles surrounding transitioning into yellow?

Hey dude, I personally appreciate various aspects of the story you have shared here. Sounds to me it took some courage to post this, and I respect that. Here is my perspective. I think your perspective on Owen's content being the source of various struggles in your life has some aspects that might well be valid. On the other hand, I do think that it is important that you also take responsibility for what I see to be the following choices of yours. Firstly, to engage with his content, to engage with it to the extent you did, and also to follow it for the length of time you did. I'm not intending to say that you are to blame in any way. Its just that to my mind, I think its important to reflect on how, knowing what you know now, you would have handled the situation differently. Also, it seems to me that you are at points claiming that Owen's teachings negatively effected your life. It seems to me like that puts you in the position of being a victim. However, I think a healthier perspective to take would be that your decision to follow Owen's content seemed to lead to adverse consequences. Again, I'm not intending to blame but instead stress, what I see to be, the importance of taking responsibility, and also seeing yourself as not being powerless. I also think that most aspects of Owen's content is not particularly high conscious, i.e. not tier 2 (Am intending to use a spiral dynamics term regarding tier 2). I don't think his programmes have much stage yellow to them, so to my mind its not going to meet the consumer where they are at, and understand what they need in their particular circumstance and place in their life. I see his talking about losers and winners as being partial demonstrations of this lack of tier 2 consciousness. I'm not intending to blame him either. However, stage orange folks aren't, to my understanding, very conscious of the effects of their actions, and how systems of cause and effect work. Also, it seems to me like you are vulnerable to cult-like dynamics. I see an example of this being that you said you 'hung onto every word he said'. I think you will likely come across other people who have the same personalities and resonance as Owen, and the same unconscious dynamics will attract you to them. So, I would recommend looking into working on that apparent vulnerability. I think Leo's cult video series, developing a greater sense of self trust and general inner work will help you with overcoming this apparent vulnerability I see in you. So, what to do now? Firstly, if you think that the course creator promised to include certain things in the course, and it didn't fulfil those promises, then I'd recommend writing a complaint email to the customer service. I would recommend being non-abusive in this email, and speak from a first-person experience, i.e. 'It seems you promised X, but didn't provide X in the programme'. I recommend this email, if indeed you think promises were broken, because I think it will help you have more of a sense of self-respect. Whether or not they seem to agree with your complaint, I don't think is that important. Secondly, I'd journal about how you feel regarding what happened. Thirdly, I'd journal about what you can learn from these experiences. Fourthly, I'd read the book, 'When I say no I feel guilty' by Manuel Smith to get, what I see to be, a greater understanding of boundaries, responsibility and assertiveness. ------------------------- I hope my words are of value to you. I will note all of this is just my personal opinion. It may be that my opinions are mistaken, or that your personal circumstance means that my advice isn't suitable for you.

I think moral relativism can be misused. I.e. people say because everything is a matter of perspective we should do X, without acknowledging that 'we should do x' is still only a perspective. I think Bertrand Russell makes a useful critique of some moral relativist theories. I don't really understand why people don't just talk about it in terms of Nihilism. I get the sense that David Hawkin's hasn't deeply thought about what he's written here, and is caught firmly within ideology. It also appears to me that he is claiming that moral relativists in saying something is objectively wrong, are therefore saying that its okay to do that thing, i.e. paedophilia. Which doesn't seem to me to be the case.

@Illusory Self Seems to me like there are repeated behaviours where she is portraying an entitled attitude to you. That 'You should not see other girls' sounds abusive to me. To my mind, a healthy variation of that would be, 'I would prefer it if you did not see other girls'. To my mind, its healthy because it simply illustrates an expression of her needs, and acts like a request. To me, that would represent a world view where she sees you as equals. Her communication seems to me to be like a demand that you sacrifice your needs to meet her needs. I think this kind of person will need to do some extensive inner work before they can have a fulfilling relationship. Without her doing such work, I don't expect a relationship with her would be fulfilling or healthy.

How to distinguishing between doing some in the central way or the marginal way. I.e. you can get become educated in two ways. In both it requires you read a lot of books and study them in depth. However, in the central case you think for yourself, and the marginal case you do not. So, in the marginal case you are educated but it is a perversion of an education. Where as the central case is an example of being educated in the fullest sense, in the truest sense. If you want citations for some study materials on this, feel free to pm me. Thought this could be a useful topic.

@mr_engineer Ah fairs my dude. Seems like I made a partially mistaken assumption about what you were trying to do.

@mr_engineer To some yes, to some no. I think it would be pointless me saying it to some feminist demographics. I'm not actually intending to tell you to stop complaining. Its more that it seems to me you are trying to persuade people to your viewpoint and it doesn't seem like your strategy is v effective to me. To my mind, complaining isn't an effective way of persuading people to your point of view.

@mr_engineer Dude imo if you give people lectures they tend to get more polarised against you. Do you want to complain at people or do you want to see the change you desire? Imo, you can sit around all day complaining and saying the world should be this way or that way. I think i fucking get it. I often wish the world was another way. But, no matter how much anyone complains, the way the world is at the current moment is the way it is at the current moment. If you wanna bring some positive change, then imo you gotta be strategic about how you go about doing it. Imo the way you're communicating you're actually further enabling toxic feminine behaviours. The way I see you speaking seems to me to just play into toxic feminine narratives re those who call out aspects of feminism.