aurum

Co-dependent, independent, interdependence. Most people are in co-dependence with society. They depend on some job to give them money and pay their bills. They depend on politicians to make decisions for them. It's ultimately based on fear and creates all these toxic situations. So the way I interpreted something like what Leo is talking about is getting people to become more independent. This is where people start to take responsibility for their own lives. They become more pro-active. They unhook off of unhealthy addictions and realize they don't need anyone or anything. However, I think you can go beyond this. The full circle is coming into interdependence. Interdependence is realizing that in reality, everything is connected. No one has ever accomplished anything on their own, everything and everyone gets support from something else. Fish need water, plants need sunlight, employers need employees, etc etc etc. It's a subtle difference but the quality of motivation is much different.

At the end of the day, that is something only you can decide. For some guys it is, for some guys it isn't. Personally I think it's awesome. It's crazy fun once you get the hang of it and you'll develop a lot of skills that will serve you later in life. Just make sure that whatever you decide, you go full out. One of only reasons I got better in this area was because I told myself I would learn cold approach even if it killed me. Guys who don't have that level of commitment usually just dabble around and then quit once they realize how hard it is.

@beatlemantis Yeah your boyfriend unfortunately ignored / is unaware of the golden rule of threesomes. You have to let your main girl know she is more important. He also sounds like he has some jealousy about the other guy. Could be that he thinks you’re the best he can do, so he doesn’t want to lose you.

Yeah I get it, it's hard to put it into words. I'm struggling as well. I think it's when the self concern has become too heavy. Self concern can be good in the sense of taking care of your body, going after your dreams, setting boundaries, etc. But this is self concern with a dark side. The best way to put it would be that you've lost sight of what really matters. Let's say you're in a relationship with someone and you love each other. But then you get into this huge fight, and all you can do is argue over who is right or wrong. You're inflicting pain on each other. At a certain point, does it really matter who is right or wrong? Both of you could die tomorrow. And if that happened, all you'd probably want to do is spend that last day loving each other. You would realize that your argument was petty and ultimately irrelevant. It didn't matter. So I'd say "petty" is often a way we describe the behavior of someone stuck in ego. You could use other terms, but "petty" is definitely a good one.

@Gustav It’s when your concerns are very small and selfish. For instance, if someone got really angry because they lost their 10% off coupon, I think most of us would agree that’s very petty. It’s not a big deal. You have to be careful though, because it can be very easy to judge people as “petty” when you just don’t agree with them. Everyone’s experience is real to them. Ironically, if you’re going around calling everyone petty, you’re probably being petty.

@Your place at Heart Don’t let appearances fool you, Elliot Hulse is a very developed guy. I’ve said this before in other threads, but there are some accurate perspectives in MGTOW. It’s not all bad. The issue I have is similar to what Leo was saying. It’s generally a very low vibration, angry, victim mentality kind of environment. Which skews a lot of even the good things they have to say. That being said, let’s not shame people who are MGTOW. That would be falling into the same trap. If you were a guy in their situation, you’d be angry and feel like a victim too. Ideally a guy eventually grows out of that. But even if he doesn’t, that’s not for us to judge.

@Shin It’s tough to watch someone you care about go through that. You just want to shake them and be like “don’t you see it? Don’t you see there’s a better way?” But it sounds like you’ve tried to help to at least a certain degree and she still doesn’t want to change. That’s not your responsibility. If you feel like you’re the hero that has to save her you make her a victim. And she’s not. Consider that you don’t know. Consider that as much as you feel like you might know what is good for her, that’s still your limited perspective. Maybe this is a lesson she needs to learn. Or maybe there’s some good that will come of this that you can’t even predict because it’s not going to show itself until years down the road. You just don’t know. So really, I would look into this: Why not? What does it mean if you fail to help her? P.S welcome back to the forum

@kieranperez Dope man, keep it up.

@daniel695 It's not going to happen over night. Likely what is going to happen is you're going to have to keep experiencing the ramifications of your misaligned thoughts until you just KNOW that it's bullshit. The good news though is that change really is possible. You just have to put in the work. Some sort of mindfulness practice will also help here, whether it's meditation or yoga or whatever. That will create some space between you and your thoughts.

I don't think it's possible to have an unsuccessful journey. Whatever you experience is what you were meant to experience, good or bad. That being said, I think what it makes it enjoyable for me is constantly challenging myself. Constantly learning. And making the choice to "be the light" wherever you go.

Distraction from doing your own work.

Anxiety purge. It will be uncomfortable but practice just staying in no matter what. It’s your responsibility to make it go somewhere. Are you using statements of intent? Teases? If you’re just making small talk then of course it’s not going to go anyway, you haven’t even tried.

No, I agree. The lone wolf thing is not a helpful concept for most people. I always saw it as a temporary thing, where you might isolate yourself if necessary so that you could then reemerge and reengage with life from a better place. Kind of like going into training. It wasn't meant to be an end goal.

Interesting, how so?

@kingroboto It's a good stepping stone for modern men. Most guys are very attached to women and validation in general, so severing that link and becoming more independent / self-reliant is a good start. However, nothing in life is actually independent. Your muscles need your heart to pump blood and oxygen. The trees need the sun. Fish need water. So I believe you can go beyond MGTOW and still engage with women in a much more healthy, high vibration way.

That's a good argument and I agree with a lot of it. But I'd also say it lacks nuance. For instance, if you read the book A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield, he talks about how he thought he was enlightened because he was doing a lot of solo meditation work. Only to come back into the "real world" and find that many of his same problems remained, they just weren't being tested when he was in isolation. Also, you could argue that a more direct method is not necessarily superior to an indirect method. Often indirect is far better. Yes I do. There's a couple of reasons why I get like that. What I've found at this point in my journey is that the spiritual is not more important than the physical, and the physical is not more important than the spiritual. Every time I prioritize one too much over the other, I get metaphorically slapped. Everyone on this forum is more or less motivated to do the inner work. But there tends to be a lack of emphasis on producing tangible outcomes. I think that's a mistake. So I like to come in and give an alternative perspective, as opposed to just more spiritual truisms like "success won't make you happy". Understand, because I'm a mod and have a bit of a rep, I get messages from guys who will say things like "I'm 20 years old and living in my parents basement. I've never had a girlfriend. But I don't care about that, how do I become enlightened?" And I just facepalm every time. It's massive spiritual bypassing. I fall into it too. Spiritual work becomes your new comfort zone that you actually use to avoid the real problems in your life. That's fine. Go do as much isolation work as you want, I've done a ton myself. But I think you're going to find that even after all that work, there's a pull to reengage. I don't see it that way at all. I understand the actual content is obviously different, but to me it's still all the same.

No, I wouldn't equate it with that. That's a caricature. I agree, self-actualization is probably my favorite topic as well. That's why I'm on this forum. But socializing isn't just about talking about your favorite topic. No, you nailed it. I'm a big fan of RSD. No, because that's not what it means to not have any attachments. Attachment is an energetic thing. When people are attached, there's a clinging, low-vibration type of energy to it. They can't let it go. And it creates a lot of Win / Lose situations in the world. However, the universe is smart. It knows you're attached and that you've got to let it go. So what often happens is a situation will arise where the person is forced into letting go of whatever they were attached to. By being stripped of the thing they want, the person is forced to emotionally and energetically expel that low-vibration from their system. The attachment is released. Once the attachment is energetically released, it opens up a new way of being. A way based on high vibration energy and gratitude. Now when something you want comes into your life, you don't cling and try to make it this permanent thing. You just say "wow, thank you. What a gift". And when it leaves, you say "wow, thank you. So glad I had that gift". But this is the funny part. Because you've passed the universal test of not being attached and having gratitude instead, the universe will flood whatever you want in. You said you did pickup, so I know you know this. What's it like when you're attached to the outcome of picking up girls? Rejection, anger, pain. Girls think you're creepy. What's it like when you're not attached? You're the motherfucking man, every girl loves you. Another example. When I look at interviews with Warren Buffett, I don't get a sense he's a guy that is attached to money at all. I think he likes money, I think he's grateful for the money he has. But I really get a vibe that he also just loves the process of investing. Now, it is true that by releasing all attachments you may find that what interest you before now longer interests you. That's fine, all that means is that desire was never authentic anyway. It's the attachments that hide what you actually care about doing / having in your life.

Bro it's not even fair. Some of the situations I've found myself in lately are so good that it literally feels uncomfortable. Like you hacked the matrix or something. The big, big, big advantages of social circle game are access and TIME. It's literally the 4-Hour-Work Week of game. If you do it right, not only will you get hotter girls than you could have ever gotten doing cold approach, you will get them easier and faster than ever before. You will be getting laid in your sleep as your social circle does all the work. Here's an example. I recently befriended this manager of a trendy restaurant here in Miami. He invites me out to some events that he is throwing at his restaurant and tells me I can bring guests. Not only does he comp our entire meal, he then proceeds to introduce me to hot girl after hot girl. They are immediately receptive because it's not a creepy fucking cold approach, it's a trusted introduction. I grabbed all their Instagrams. Then, he introduces me to a bunch of cool guys that are really successful. One of them is going to be on my podcast and the rest have started inviting me to these exclusive events I never knew existed. You can see a lot of it on my Instagram stories. It's literally the perfect solution to the "not enough time to game" problem. To get that level of success via purely cold approach would have taken hours and hours AT BEST. And that's even with great game. So yeah man there's no comparison. The only catch is that you have to start looking at Game in a much different way. You really have to become a connector and understand how to arbitrage value from different people.

@7thLetter I've definitely had periods where I just needed to unplug and go within for awhile. But in my experience, that isn't meant to last. I don't equate self-actualization with becoming becoming some sort of hermit that can't live in society. And I think a lot of people in the rationalize their lack of connection with others with spiritual ego, i.e "look at me, I'm so conscious. I don't need to associate with you sleepwalkers anymore". From a more pragmatic perspective, people have everything you want. You're free to not associate with other people. But don't be surprised when you can't find a partner for your dream business. Or can't get funding for your charity. Or no one buys your music album. Or you can't get a girlfriend. Or no one picks you up at the airport. Or you can't get a job recommendation. Or you can't find a gym partner. Or you can't afford to travel. Etc etc etc. In essence, you are not some independent island that can do everything yourself. Or, if you really don't care about anything I just listed, just say fuck it and go live in an ashram in India. But make a real decision, not a decision based on fear, past wounds and rationalizations. Personally I've chosen to associate and engage with others. This world is a mirror, and your experience of people will be a reflection of you, not them.

It's a lot more social circle versus just cold approach. I haven't talked about it publicly because I haven't quite cracked the code. But I've gotten some glimpses of where it's going and it's awesome.

Right now I'm coming off of a phase where I was doing a lot of stereotypical cold approach / PUA stuff. I've stopped not because I think it's manipulative or evil, but because it's not nearly as effective as people make it out to be. So I'm basically breaking down a lot of my old habits and installing new, more effective ones. It's a big shift but it's definitely going to be worth it. The reality is though that my situation isn't your situation. So even if I tell you some of the things I'm working on, it's probably not going to be relevant to where you are at.

@Omario The good news is that you're 16, so you've got a shit load of time to grow into being a boss. I'm 27 and feel like I'm just getting started. And the fact that you're on this forum means you are way ahead of the curve. So given your age at that you're probably in high school, I'd do two things. 1) Read up on female psychology and sexuality like @Spiral said. Books like Sex At Dawn, Way of the Superior Man and The Female Brain are good introductions. 2) Start learning how to grow a social circle and be the popular guy. In high school, I would bring together groups of friends and throw small parties. Same thing in college but on a 10x scale. If you become "that guy" who is creating a good experience for everyone, is leading the group and isn't afraid to be sexual, you'll get a girlfriend.

@Marinador From what I understand, they are conceptually different. Mystical union is a temporary event where the ego boundaries dissolve. Enlightenment seems to be more of a permanent awareness.

@Cortex Most likely that you got really present and the thinking mind quieted down.

@phoenix666 Nice! Those are important insights.