aurum

I find anything that is done without coercion or manipulation to be fun. I.e doing something purely for the its own sake and the enjoyment of it.

Kind of rambling, I had a hard time really understanding what he was getting at. But I don't suspect our future is one of half man, half machine, which I think was his point.

Yeah you got it. Jeff Bezos has how much money now? And how many people are struggling to meet their basic needs? It's unconscionable, and the sign of an out of balanced system. You're into personal finance so you know how this works. Money makes you more money. If I get a million dollars, suddenly it's a whole lot easier to make that second million. This is true, and it's also a major problem. It's just a number I threw out there to introduce the idea of a Ceiling. But you're right, because wealth is contextual, that $2M might seem like a lot more. If there was massive deflation then the number would obviously have to change. Yes. The problem is we are worshiping an abstraction. Why else are people protesting for "human-centered capitalism"? Shouldn't that be what we already have? But we don't. We have "Money-for-the-sake-of-money capitalism". When we don't research holistic nature medicine because there's no money in it, that's us worshiping an abstraction. When we destroy our own environment because of corporate profit, that's us worshiping an abstraction. When we engage in wage slavery, that's us worshiping an abstraction. I could go on and on but I think you already understand this. Money needs to be brought back to reality. And the reality is it doesn't really mean fuck all, it's just a web of agreements. What's actually important are the things you listed.

Thanks man! Figured you would I want to add something to what I wrote. The way I'm thinking about the new way we use money is it's all about Ceilings and Floors. Ceilings = Max of how much money / power someone is allowed to accumulate Floor = Minimum of how much money / power someone is allowed to accumulate. For instance, the 100% wealth tax is very obviously attempt at a Ceiling. It ensures that no one accumulates more than say, $2 million dollars. Then that money would be used to fund a Floor like UBI. So the Ceilings and the Floors work together. Demurrage currency is a Ceiling and Floor is one policy. If money loses value over time instead of simply compounding, that creates a sort of Ceiling of how much one can or would even want to accumulate. It's also a Floor because if someone doesn't have enough, people are going to be far more likely to give what they have to them. It decreases the importance of money on both ends. Gift Economy is also a Ceiling / Floor combo. If I'm operating by gift, the amount of money I'm likely to accumulate is small (Ceiling). At the same time, gifts are either free or within the affordability of the receiver (Floor). And maybe none of these specific ideas actually work out. But this Ceiling / Floor as a concept is going to be present in whatever system does take hold.

I'll add to this: Worker cooperatives instead of traditional top down hierarchies Local economies and currency instead of global corporations Zero or negative interest rate loans Demurrage currency instead of money that compounds Eco-backed currency / eco-credits instead of fiat currency UBI or UBS instead of wage slavery 100% wealth tax over a certain amount instead of infinite wealth accumlation Public money creation instead of private, for-profit money creation Community consensus for new businesses instead of exploitative businesses Gift economy instead of endless commodities Ending or looser intellectual property rights Green taxes instead of externalities

@Preety_India You've definitely identified many of the shadows of the PUA community. This is coming from a guy who was pretty deep into that world for a while. Most guys who get into pickup are not thinking that deeply about it. They just want a girl. In a more conscious society, PUA would not exist. Not because it's evil but it would be unnecessary. I believe part of the problem is we don't have proper male initiations anymore. Traditionally, a boy would often have to go through an intense ordeal to then be considered a man. I even read that in one Native American tribe, a young man would be assigned an older woman who would teach him how to make love. We don't really do these things anymore and I think PUA has found a niche for guys craving that initiation. Also, consider that the predatory mindset you're talking about isn't really all that different from how operate in the rest of society. We view nature as an object to be exploited called "resources". You don't have people who your business is helping, you have "sales targets". So really this mindset is just an extension of what the ego does. It rationalizes things as abstract objects so that it can then exploit them without having to feel guilty. Anyway, it's an excellent nuanced question. Thanks for asking.

I'm actually more optimistic. Mainly because either we do that OR we are heading for total societal collapse. There really is no middle ground. The current systems are completely unsustainable. Already we are seeing big pushes for Universal Basic Income and Universal Basic Services. These are not fringe ideas anymore, Andrew Yang damn near became the democratic nominee with UBI as his platform. Of course UBI / UBS is not enough. But it shows that we are starting to think differently, and that's what is most important. The scarcity of modern society is fake. We just need to change our thinking.

I'd start with loving that For me, the right music and nature are two of the things that really help bring me into a loving vibe. It's not permanent but it happens a whole lot more than it used to. And a whole lot deeper. You could also just fake it. Scream, punch your pillow, make yourself cry, fake laugh. Might be a good stepping stone. Also, if you have loving / emotional people in your life, I find they are often a catalyst for you to then open up. At the end of the day, I find love is more a natural consequence of spiritual growth. So whatever your practice is, stay on it.

No, a large percentage of people feel that way. Including basically everyone on this forum. And even your ruthless Orange friends would likely say the same if they had a little bit more awareness.

It was a lot harder than I ever imagined, but it's also been more rewarding. I think over time it can get easier. After a while you've released a lot of trauma and transcended a lot of your conditioning. You start to hit compounding rewards. In my experience that's when it gets really fun At the same time, it's not a linear process. You might be flying high for a while and then crash into a new trauma out of no where. Important thing is just to stay present with whatever is arising.

Marx was one of my favorites in college. He made some excellent critiques of capitalism and industrial society, although I believe there's better more modern analysis to be had.

@Lews Therin That's the power of the system. The system doesn't maintain itself because it's easy to jailbreak out of and disrupt. It maintains itself because it's the exact opposite. Incentives point towards maintaining homeostasis. Practically this might look like a wide-eyed Greenie who wants to save the world, but ends up working in finance because shit, life is expensive. Rent, maybe a family, student loan debt, etc. You can't really blame them. Those are the incentives that are laid out. Same thing happen with a lot of hippies in the 60s/ 70s. The incentives of the system yanked them back in. It's similar to having an ego-backlash when you think about it.

It'll be unique for each person. But you can bet that they've done a lot of spiritual work and pulling off the layers of societal conditioning.

There's plenty. But if you're doing the spiritual work, you're likely going to figure out very quick that success and riches do not necessarily constitute the glory days. They are not necessarily even a sign of maturity. You may want to reconsider your marker for success.

Yes. Because wage slavery is a symptom of unconsciousness and our broken systems. A conscious society could not have wage slavery. So if you feel your purpose is to raise the consciousness of the planet, which is likely everyone on this forum, then you're contributing to ending wage slavery. If you specifically want to tackle wage slavery as a life purpose, perhaps consider a career in economics / government. Up to you how you want to manifest your contribution.

That's awesome, Charles was a big part of me getting into this kind of thinking. Reading Sacred Economics from a perspective of someone who formally studied economics was transformative. I also really liked this panel, all excellent communicators and deep thinkers. Very interesting that Jordan mentioned an economic crash, e.g hyperinflation, would be a god-send right now. COVID may be helping fulfill that exact role. Right now the Federal Reserve is buying huge amounts of corporate bonds and it only seems to be buying more, not slowing down. Basically our economy is only hanging on to the degree it is because of massive government intervention. COVID exacerbated and exposed huge problems we already had. So question is, will that invention even continue to work? I was also glad to hear them mention UBI. I think it's inevitable that some form of a UBI or UBS is going to be necessary. The problem is, UBI is a complete system disrupt-er. It's a massive step forward to eliminating the artificial scarcity of society, but the system that runs on artificial scarcity can't allow that. The Republicans are actually right in that regard, it would cause a lot of people to stop "working". What they don't understand is that is exactly what we need. I haven't but I'll check it out. My thoughts are that we are moving towards more of a worker-coop model for businesses. Less hierarchy, less centralization, less command and control and more general equality. Sounds very Green to me. I haven't read her book but my initial thoughts are that Doughnut Economics is more of a subset of RBE. In other words, a resource-based economy will have "doughnut" characteristics, i.e circularity, but also many other characteristics. Circularity is just one feature of many important features. If you know more about it I'd love to hear.

What I found most interesting about this was that they seem to have co-opted classic leftist talking points. Usually if you started talking about the failures of the system and institutions, you were a weed smoking hippie with long hair and who complained about “the man”. It was the political right that was generally proud of how things were and wanted to preserve it. This of course could be some deep self-deception, i.e talk about how you’re against the establishment in order to assuage yourself of how you really do represent the establishment. Trump does this all the time. But I wonder if it’s deeper than that. Perhaps on some unconscious level, even these people recognize that the game of modern society cannot go on like this. Perhaps they don’t know how to express it properly but it’s still there. The intuitive knowledge that the game of endless consumerism and economic growth is up. The game of control, fear and domination of each other and nature is up. And of course, the ultimate game of believing yourself to be an individual ego, is up. It seems almost impossible to me that someone could be alive at this time and not feel that we are at a major transition point.

Really excellent. The deep systems thinking he goes into feels very Yellow to me. Reminds me a lot of Charles Eisenstein, who I'm guessing you already know: https://charleseisenstein.org/ On paper I'm mostly interested in degrowth economics. I already have a Masters degree in general economics so it feels like a natural transition. But of course this goes way beyond economics. We are talking about a whole new world, one that is going to revolutionize spirituality, medicine, child care, sexuality, technology, agriculture, etc. And I find anything that hints at this new world really catches my eye.

Leo's content came into my life the exact same time I was finding out about spirituality. He was just starting to post content on enlightenment. No coincidences.

@Focus Shift Definitely some combo of orange / blue / red.

@Spiral Wizard If you want to attract conscious people, first thing I would do is focus on raising your own consciousness. From a law of attraction perspective, people on the same wavelength are bound to meet. And I've found that to be true in my experience. Even if there's only one conscious person in a group of ten, I will somehow end up talking to that person. More practically, just start going to places where people you want to meet hang out. It's usually not that hard to find the places / events. Instagram is your friend when it comes to this. Go there regularly so people recognize your face even if you don't actually meet. Once you're there, make friends with everyone. Social circles have a exponential effect, meaning one friend could lead you to meeting 10 more. And each of those 10 could lead you to meeting 10 more. After that, if you want to become some sort of host / organizer / leader you can certainly do that. It may help. But I wouldn't consider it necessary.

Hi Monini, welcome to the forum. I have noticed a bit of change regrading sexual attraction. My pet theory at this point is that when we are more unconscious, our sexual energy tends to get stuck in our lower chakras. So we may feel what seems like a lot of sexual attraction, but really it's more about that energy needing to move. As we become more conscious and our chakras open, the sexual energy flows more freely through our whole being. It's not getting stuck or being projected externally. So we can of course still experience sexual arousal, but it has a different quality to it. It's more "whole-body". And the attraction we feel is more genuine compared to just needing to move some stuck energy.

You are certainly free to make as much money as you'd like. My intention is not to tell you to NOT do that. As I said in another post, I don't know you or your situation or what your needs are.

I appreciate that. And I appreciate the level of nuanced thinking you're bringing to this dialogue as well, I'm enjoying it. Let's see if we can go deeper. I would argue that it's not just that there's more to life than material pleasure. I think most people would agree to that. But there still seems to be this assumption that we actually desire a lot of the material things our Orange society has told us are the good life. For instance, let's look at buying a house. Is it that we should want to buy the house and we just need to learn that it won't make us happy? Or is something lost in the mere act of purchasing a house? Perhaps we lose the joy of actually building your own shelter and working with your hands. Perhaps we lose community since traditionally houses would be build communally, which is now outsourced to a construction company. And I'm not saying to not buy a house. I certainly have no idea how to build a realistic shelter so I will be continuing to purchase that commodity. I'm making the point that purchasing items themselves can actually backfire to when it comes to what we really want. Consider if I make you a home made gift with my own creativity, talent and love. That care is going to shine through in the gift. But if I just purchase you a gift and put no uniqueness or creativity into it, something is lost. It's not the same. But this is what our consumer culture encourages because it drives the economy. Even these goals I would argue are more of a result of our stage Orange society than an actual reality. For instance, consider the neighborhood of Vauban in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauban,_Freiburg Here, everything is built within walking distance. As such, people don't need cars. What good is a car when everything you need is right in front of you? It has no value. So do we still need to appreciate the "material pleasures" of a car? Consider having $10M. If you lived in an indigenous culture or somewhere that thrived on gift economy, your $10M is worthless. These things only have relative value because of the circumstances we currently find ourselves in. As long as we live in the modern world, a car or $10M may have relative value. I'm not arguing against that. It's clear that to an extent it does. I'm saying, what if things changed? What if we developed an economic system that wasn't so dependent on purchasing (i.e transactions) and more dependent on gift, sharing and relationship? Would it make the world a more beautiful place? I think it would. In our modern society yes, but freedom to do what? To passively consume? To destroy the environment? What are we doing with this freedom? Because money is not the source of freedom. Money is a web of social agreements we've all made with each others. If there's freedom, it's because we created it. And I respect that. Don't take anything I'm saying as me arguing you shouldn't continue that path. I don't know you and I don't know what your financial situation is or what your goals might be. I believe you have good intentions. My point is I believe there is a far more nuanced conversation we should be having around money / economics. And you won't find it in most self-help books because most self-help books are designed to help people get what they want, not challenge our collective systems.

Actually, it is complicated. Wealth in our current economic system is not generated independently from community and others in the world. The way things currently work is that more for me usually equals less for you. Or alternatively, more for me equals greater ecological destruction and taking of wealth from future generations. I think this is why Green becomes all about sharing. When we focus on sharing, then there's plenty for everyone. We are no longer trapped in a zero-sum game. But this may require a reduction in individual wealth. Green is okay with this because it is collective thinking, not individualistic. Additionally, excess commodification and purchasing power destroys communal ties. Communities rely on being able to help each, but when everything becomes a commodity that can be purchased, you lose real relationship with the people around you. Hence, a lot of the great loneliness of modern society. This is exactly what I'm questioning. In order to deny something to myself, I have to first desire it. But what if I had no desire for certain materialistic pleasures? Then it's not denial. Like I said above, it becomes a conscious choice, which is much different. I think the great facade and doublethink of our stage Orange society is that what we have is abundance. I see that we are in deep scarcity, only we don't even recognize it. Big buildings, yachts and planes are not real wealth. Or perhaps a more generous phrasing would be that they are poor substitutes for the wealth we have lost.