Bill W

I'm working on values at the moment. For me, it's easy to embody a value from the comfort of my own home, or when I am out laying in the grass with the sun on my face, or when I am at retreat or similar venue. But then life intrudes. My craziness (ego?) shows itself to a level dependent upon the level of craziness (ego?) I bump into in the outside world. For me, holding myself to my values and demonstrating these values on the "front line" of life is FREEDOM, I can be Viktor Frankl. What do you guys think of my template below? Do you have anything to add, or anything to discuss on open mindedness? I have other values in the style of the below template that I could post down the line if this thread ends up getting any interest. Open mindedness Quote "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation" - Herbert Spencer Definitions, meanings and thinking elements • Willingness to try new things • Willingness to consider new ideas • Reserve judgement until all the relevant facts have been established • Don’t jump to conclusions • Don’t assume • Awareness that every person is a potential teacher • Awareness that every situation could be a learning opportunity • Awareness and reflection on your prejudices Behavioural elements • Be careful with speculation and gossip • Watch out for acting on impulse, if there is time available before you want to act, think about taking advantage of this time • Body language congruent with keeping an open mind • Not jumping straight into defensive or argumentative mode • Admit mistakes and areas for development • Self-correcting of unhelpful or inaccurate judgemental processes and attitudes What you might need to let go of........ Blame, Judgement, Denial, Being Correct, Hypocrisy, Self-Righteousness, Pride, Entitlement, Greed, Selfishness, Intolerance, Wanting To Control, Wanting To Manipulate, Demands, Getting Revenge, Being Defensive. Questions to ask………… Am I sure? Am I stepping outside of not-knowing mind? Have I taken something personally? Are my demands out of touch with reality? What prejudices might I hold about this situation? Have I already made up my mind here, or am I open to a different way?

@Truth Addict For sure, and it took me years, and years, and more years to know what self-honesty is. I'm still learning. Without it, you can misdiagnose every problem you have. In my experience, some people do need support with this. Some will think "self-honesty, yep, I can check that box, it's not a problem. I don't cheat on my wife, I don't cheat on my tax returns, and I never shoplift". Some people genuinely don't know what self-honesty is. It can be a painful place in the early days, reflecting on past behaviour and looking at your own role in past events and current conflict with others. It can be difficult for some to work on self-honesty without a guide, as I think the instinctive survival mode in us can resist it, especially if that person is already at rock bottom. Thanks for the chat on this.

True, although some of the most insane stuff I've seen has come from people who have been on here for ages with massive post counts. I honestly have seen stuff that is like a temporary insanity. Intelligent debate ends up with literally "suck my dick". I actually think it is a form of temporary insanity. I think it's also called am Amygdala hijack? I've not really seen any correlation with post count and wisdom. I know that's not exactly what you are saying, but then again people could argue I might not know wisdom when I see it! But I value emotional self-control over anything else right now. Others have different goals to me, and perhaps they think nothing of screaming and shouting on the forum, and getting defensive if someone doesn't buy into their perspective. Perhaps it's terrifying to contemplate that you've done all this spiritual development, read all these books, watched all these clips, done all this meditation and self-inquiry, and at the end of it you are no more advanced than Joe Bloggs whose three down from you in the grocery store queue, and he has never read a self-development book, or watched a self-development video in his life and doesn't know what meditation is. Sorry OP - What I'm describing above I've seen more from the men on here than women. I don't know the bigger picture reason for this. It was pointed out to me that Leo's style attracts a certain crowd here. I would have thought regardless of what crowd are here, most people would like to not lose their shit on a forum? But that's me being judgmental I guess.

It's a pandemic. An infection. The women on here seem to have antibodies. Leo needs to make a vaccine, before we see more people losing their mind. Some of the threads, when they turn ugly, it's like that beginning scene from the film 28-days later when the monkey bites that person, who then goes nuts and infects all the others, who in turn infect the whole country.

@Flatworld Crusades Great question. The values I am really focusing on trying to convey and actually display are..... Open mindedness, Humility, Compassion, Forgiveness, Gratitude, Honesty and Faith/Courage (I have these two values as completely intertwined). I have other templates for these values. I am a making lists/plans kind of person!!! I like to have a blueprint. I struggle to articulate my beliefs actually. I'd have to be asked specifically by someone for me to stand a chance to answer this.

Thanks for taking an interest. If we embodied all those things ALL the time, we could be in the top 1% of the entire planet in open mindedness! Although saying that makes me sound cocky and narrow minded! I think open mindedness is something most people seem to assume they have. But at the first sign of trouble they may abandon the open mind and close it off to "win" the battle or argument! Thanks for this. Yeh, in terms of keeping things simple, I am quite obsessive and worry about what I might "leave out" that is crucial, so I end up usually putting in too much (be it in writing, or in talking!).

....and preaching his teachings.

With expectations, demands, clinging, attachment etc, I view it as "progress rather than perfection". I have no doubt that the more I drop them, the easier my life will be. In terms of your question, I don't believe (for me anyway), I will ever be free of expectation, and I'm not sure I'd want to be. I'm not sure I need to be free of it completely. However, just in terms of being pragmatic, I am sure that my expectations of life and others fucks me up more than it helps me.

Hi Andrea, Was pleased to see you started a thread. I'm new here and I'm also new to the Bible and am using the Bible and connecting at church to aid my recovery. I've seen some of your posts so I was curious about this thread. I'm also a mental health nurse so I am risking sounding quite ignorant... but what's your angle here? What are we looking at and why? What kind of dialogue is this designed to start? ?

Thanks. Yes, you are right. I don't want these templates to contain more words than what is required, so it's an aim of mine to keep them simple and to the point, so thanks.

Yes. It's my understanding of open mindedness. An instruction manual so to speak. Putting it out there to see if anyone else has anything that I can hijack for my own purposes!

I focus on the breath sometimes at night when I'm in bed. It can help me drift off. But mainly with my meditation practice I either focus on snippets of books I like. Sacred text kind of stuff. It's like contemplation i think. However one of the things that has best helped me quiet my mind is mindfulness meditation. To do this and stay in the present moment I focus more on noise than my breath. The issue with this is that the breath is always there and noise or sound is not guaranteed. So I will intensely focus on any available sound to keep grounded and connected in the moment. This could be traffic, the sounds of weights clunking in the gym, a conversation people are having on the bus (I don't actually listen to their words I focus on the sounds). This has all helped me have a little more control on monkey mind. I find that even when I am not meditating that monkey mind is better. I don't meditate as much as I should. About 10 to 15 mins per day.

@kuma Don Miguel Ruiz. The Fifth Agreement, chapter 4. The whole book is great. All his stuff is. Might suit you and some of your issues. It really helped me.

That's a bit dramatic. Death? Agree about the bit underneath with witnessing. I find it powerful to do this. With silencing the mind I find that the more silent my mind is, the more serenity I have. Moves me away from Monkey mind.

I like that. Good rules.

This applies to me I think. I have some of the same issues as the original poster. If the destination is unclear..... easy for me to assume the destination is clear, but I've probably never actually checked this out. I've taken it for granted that the destination must be clear, perhaps it is not, or it is clear, but I need to meditate on it, contemplate more, remind myself. Bring the vision to the forefront rather than running in the background.... I fall into a trap thinking I've got the basics sorted and need to work on the more complex stuff, then something happens that makes me question my basic stuff. Thanks.

Hello mate, I listened to it. Thanks. My response might be going in a different direction to your main message I don't know. It's all about AA I am afraid, but I feel there is a link to your message? Yeh, with the reference to AA and 12-step fellowship approach. I was thinking the same thing just before you even mentioned AA, like a few seconds before I was linking your message from the first few minutes to what I have experienced in AA and other 12-step programmes. AA as I understand it through my own experience in it, actually empowers people by teaching them that one of the reasons they are still stuck in addiction and/or general dysfunction in life (even if they are clean and sober by this point) is that we have tried so tirelessly to sort out our shit on our own, and we are constantly failing in this because we are trying to fix our mind with our very own mind. In my experience AA teaches that we are too limited to fix ourselves on our own. I find AA does this in a remarkably empowering way as you have to appreciate many people who come into a 12-step programme are at rock bottom, with zero self-worth as it is. Many are in such turmoil you would never think they would recover and function well again. AA kind of tells you.... "you've done your best, you've fought a good fight, but it's time to throw in the towel and surrender. The game is up". At this point, if you really buy into the programme and have the right meetings to go to, a good sponsor, you are off and running into recovery. The Higher Power aspect of the 12-step approach is amazing in my experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything to do with God. Many atheists recover and stay in a 12-step programme for a good while. AA gently guides you into choosing your own Higher Power. For some people, the Higher Power is the "room" i.e. the meeting they are in. I have witnessed first hand the power of this. This is where the power of peer support really comes in. There is a massive sense of togetherness, and honesty. Also in connection to your message, the 12-step approach really focuses on letting shit go. It's not just about acquire, acquire, acquire skills etc. The ego is constantly under attack if you are properly engaged in a 12-step programme. David Hawkins is a big fan of the 12-step approach for this reason. Power is generated in the rooms. A power that for many simply cannot be accessed on your own doing.

Nice topic. I'm sure there will be a variety of perspectives on this. For me, what made sense, was the Susan Jeffers book (Feel the fear and do it anyway). She believes our main fear is "I can't handle it". I might be paraphrasing somewhat. She writes that it is not the incident as such that is the main fear (such as I will lose my job, I will lose my spouse, I will go bankrupt etc), but the root fear is that we won't be able to handle it. Not sure if I am making sense here. I know it sounds really simplistic, but it really resonated with me. She keeps emphasizing the "I can't handle it" being the root cause of fear. Or I suppose "I won't be able to handle it". Although, I am not sure this would fit for someone whose fear is death, or perhaps it would fit? This links in with one of my favourite definitions of psychological stress (again I paraphrase)..... stress occurs when we are asked or required to do something that exceeds our perceived level of competence. I also like this definition..... stress occurs relative to when we underestimate our competence whilst simultaneously overestimating the risk. So this is my quite basic response to your question. It might not be the most sophisticated of replies you'll get!

Thanks for this. It resonates with me actually.

I honestly don't know if this is a compliment to Leo or a greviance? Shitting gold could mean he is so wise that even his shit is the good stuff or you could be alluding to Leo earning too much money?

To be honest I feel like I've got off lightly with starting this thread. The tongue in cheek nature of some of my original post is something I want to be mindful of. One persons tongue in cheek throwaway comment can be another persons trigger. Flippant and similar terms to flippant could have been thrown my way and I wouldn't really have had a right to gripe about that. I actually do think it would be healthier to have a better gender mix. However if you asked me to really justify and defend this position I might not be able to do it well. That's me being genuine here. I just find in my experience a diversity mix can promote inclusion better. But the forum isn't here to work around my little designs and plans. I guess Leo has it in mind what this place does and does not offer and it's for us to decide individually if it has something for us or not. For me it does. Totally. However. Honest disclosure. A lot of these masculine goals and some of the other goals some men are looking for here don't interest me so I'm bound to a bit more sensitive to the fact it's Male heavy here. I don't want to be seen as shitting on other people's outlook. I really don't. By the way, I make no claims for being better than anyone else who has different goals to me. Yeh, so I'm not going to defend anything too rigorously in terms of my position as I'm genuinely open to guidance, feedback etc. If I move away from humility and openmindedness I try to check myself. There will be errors along the way! I'll never claim to be knowing exactly what I am doing. Peace all and thanks for the replies and comments.

It's good your honest as it helps me at least try and put myself in your shoes. The saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat comes to mind in terms of exercise and achieving health goals. A fair bit could be achieved with the walking. Many people don't even do that.

@jbram2002 Outside some of the deeper stuff around what you really want and/or what the wife might want of you health/appearance wise, there is always the option of picking up an exercise regime regardless. While you/me/we/wife/forum are debating the more intricate complexities of the human condition, you could start picking up your exercise and work out other stuff later. The gym, local park, your running shoes, or weights equipment doesn't care what your wife thinks or that you feel physically unattractive. It's just there waiting for you to start moving. You also get to deal with that awkward beginning phase of exercise where everything feels really difficult and too hard. This is one of the best parts, as the only way is up and you might not plateau for a while, it will just be up, up, up if you plan it right. I'm assuming you don't do much exercise right now, but I might be wrong. Maybe wife didn't think much and just answered "weight lifting" as she felt she best say something. I can't imagine if you do something outside of weight lifting for your physical health she will say "oh what a waste of time, I told you to focus on weight lifting". It's about momentum, that's my final thought here!

This is interesting and partly one of the reasons I'm on the forum. Bringing things back down to my own level (that's all I can do right now until my understanding widens).... It seems to me like Leo believes he has worked out a way to circumvent the brain so his reality will be different to the others that have not managed to circumvent their brain. So to me, this sounds more like something out of a science fiction film than anything. However, I know Leo is not the only one working on this path. There are others here that are also experiencing the Matrix, like the film perhaps. For me, whatever improves your life and hopefully those around you, and hopefully the world in general, all power to it if it. This post might sound like I am taking the piss. I'm not. I'm just opening myself up for feedback which might even become ridicule of my perceived ignorance. It's good for me to put this stuff in writing as it will help chart my progress and accountability for my beliefs and understanding. I do actually strive toward being as openminded as possible, even if this post reads the opposite of that.

My thoughts on direct experience are most likely open to modification. I don't believe my thoughts on this topic are set in stone. However, saying that..... where I stand today on it right now...... I think a lot of direct experience, probably the vast majority of it, still involves the mind making an interpretation of this direct experience. I (we?) then decide what the direct experience means, or might mean. I (we) decide. So, as far as I can see, this makes the direct experience a belief. In terms of trusting my direct experience...... If I burn my hand because of boiling hot water, I trust my experience. This is pain. There are not many different reasons behind this experience. Not so much interpretation that happens (if any). If I get into a heated debate with my father or sister. This is a direct experience. I might feel resentful and angry. I might feel hurt. I might feel lost. Perhaps I can trust the direct experience, but I know for sure, I can't trust my immediate interpretation of the experience. My immediate interpretation is that they are assholes and this is false. Perhaps even an awakening could be described as a belief in terms of what the direct experience meant. We might be able to trust the direct experience, but can we trust the meaning we bring to it? How does one remove personal bias from coming to a conclusion that a certain experience means one has awakened? If one is doing lots of work on themselves and yearns for an awakening, how does one look at their direct experience objectively? Does one bring their own meaning to each experience? I could get shot down here, I don't mind. I have no real position to defend. I am curious about everyone's experiences and interpretations. But, right now where I am in my development, I see that Leo has a lot of beliefs about what his experiences mean. They mean something to him for sure. I believe he is being honest and genuine. My gut feeling is that a lot of people don't want to consider their experiences as a belief or interpretation. I am here to see where the land lies and how I can help myself through others experience and knowledge which does (I admit) often exceed mine from what I can see on the forum.