what is the primal from of romantic relationship?

[Philipp]

I am questioning whether monogamy is the most natural form of romance for humans. What kind of relationship form is the most natural to humans (the most aligned with our primal roots)?

- longterm monogamy (lifelong)

- shorter monogamy (3-10 years) 

- sexual exclusivity only from female part. (Harem)

- polyamory

- open relationship

- casual Dating

It would be nice, if you give an explanation on why you think this is the most natural form of relationship for humans. 

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[Thought Art]

@Philipp Idk, seems culturally relative. Have you read the book “Sex at Dawn” I think it explores that

[Philipp]

@Thought Art no I have not read it, but I am not talking about culture, since this is more of a societal construction. What was the romantic relationship form in a tribe of 1000 human living in the wild.

[Bando]

23 hours ago, Philipp said:

What was the romantic relationship form in a tribe of 1000 human living in the wild

If we're talking about tribal times I would say it would mostly be harems. "Might is right" seems to be the ethos of that time period.

A chief and his underlings would probably have access to most women and the rest would have to settle for what was left.

I don't know if I would call that "primal" though as if you were physically capable enough you could just take what you wanted. Im pretty sure if women would have a say back then they would prefer longterm monogamy as that would ensure the best chance of their offsprings survial.

[Lila9]

In tribal times, which are the most primal example of romantic relationships, and how humans were actually living for millions of years, women and men sleep with whom they want basically and sex is not a big deal or an issue.

There was no such concept of possession, there was no such thing as "it's my partner" or "your partner".

The children that were born knew who is their mother but didn't always know who's their father and it wasn't important because all the men and women are responsible for all the children.

 There was no such thing as "my child" or "your child" either.

Later, as there became more tribes in the same territory and tribes started to fight with eachother, the concept of possession became more important, sex became a currency, women became possession that can be exchanged for some goods, tribes started to sell young girls, relationships started to be more monogamous, especially from the woman's end as men were allowed to have more than 1 wife, depends on their status.

It happened parallel to the agricultural revolution, it became more important for men to identify who's their biological child In order to pass them their property they worked to have their entire lives.

The concept of monogamous marriage has been created, sex outside of marriage became forbidden and people who did that outside of the marriage, especially women, were punished.

It happened parallel to the raise in religions Christianity and other monogamous religions.

Until then, humans practiced paganism and worshiped female Gods and femininity.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Lila9

[Philipp]

@Lila9 Nice, thorough answer. I would however be skeptical of claiming sex is not a big deal back then. And man not claiming females and getting jealous if they get fucked by someone else...Maybe if it were like orgies and multiple man would be fucking a woman at the same time. I do also believe rejecetion had to be a thing back then. A woman was surely not letting anyone fuck her.

FROM A SYSTEMIC POINT OF VIEW sexual selection is an incredibly important evolutionary process. It is like evolution on steroids. Sexual attraction is not just fun and games. It was key for selecting highly effective genes. 

[Lila9]

@Philipp Feeling of rejection and jealousy certainly existed on the personal level. And certainly there were personal preferences.

And there were cool gifting and courtship ceremonies to alluring someone into sex, like in the animal kingdom.

Even if there was jealousy, it wasn't promoted to be possessive of someone or entitled to someone. The mindset in these tribal times was sharing everything and if a person is not willing to share whatever it is, he or she are a threat to the survival of the tribe, because the survival of the tribe depends on sharing and the cooperation of all the members. In case someone exhibits selfish, possessive, entitled or harmful behavior, they put at risk of being abandoned by the tribe. And abandonment equals to death because it's very difficult for a human to survive alone in the wild. 
 

Look at the animals that genetically resemble us, like the bonobo monkeys. They are very cool with sex, and this is actually how we have started.

(Lol I just remembered that Jordan Peterson argued that we resemble Lobsters which is very out of the blue in my opinion. If you want to learn about a species, look at other genetically close species, it really looks like he cherry picked Lobsters to convey his personal beliefs about how humans should be)

Sexual selection is important when the main purpose of sex is reproduction, but for humans at tribal times, like for the bonobo monkeys, reproduction was a secondary purpose, the main purpose was pleasure, shooting, creating bonds and strengthening bonds.

It's only about 10,000-15,000 years ago when it started to change into more monogamous society.

You can't believe that sex wasn't a big deal because you grew up in a society that makes a big deal of sex and you cannot imagine another reality.

You grew in a society that is envious and possessive of woman's sexuality, where's the status of males and females is not equal, when males feel entitled to shame control and posses women's sexuality. Society with a lot of shame and misunderstanding of sex in general!

If our society was really open and educated about sex, there would be tantra lessons at school starting from age 14.

The status of males and females in tribal times was equal, it's actually relatively new in the human history that men dominant women.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Lila9